Hello all,

This is a long post, I know.
But any help would be greatly appreciated.

I'm having an on-going problem getting acceptable
photo prints from my Canon inkjet printer:
My prints are either unacceptably UNDER or OVER SATURATED.
I'm thinking that the problem has to do with the Printer Profiles. ?

I've googled and researched this everyday for about a month now.
Nada. So here goes a long winded description of the problem.
Maybe someone out there has had a similar problem.

Note: The following procedures are described for Photoshop CS
on a Macintosh.

___________________________________________
Camera: Olympus C-7000
Computer: iMac G5, OS 10.4.3, PhotoShop CS
Printer: Canon ip4000
Paper: Canon Photo Paper Pro
Ink: Canon Factory Ink
___________________________________________

Printing From Photoshop CS (MACINTOSH):

1. The Photo file comes from the camera tagged with sRGB.
On opening in PS, the profile is converted to working space =
Adobe RGB.

2. In the "Print with Preview" Dialog Box, the following are selected:
Color Management:
Source Space: Document: Adobe RGB.
Print Space: Profile: Printer Color Management.
Intent: Perceptual.
Click on Print

3. The Printer Driver "Print" Dialog box opens up.
The following are selected:
Quality and Media: Photo Paper Pro, Print Top Quality Photo.
Color Options: Color Correction: ColorSync.
Click on Print

4. The resulting print is VERY UNDER SATURATED.
The colors are pretty much accurate only very pale. Washed out.
Especially skin tones.
___________________________________________
5. If in step 3 above I select:
Color Options: Color Correction: BJ Standard
(the recommended CC selection);
Print type: Photo;  Brightness Normal.

Then the resulting print is a little better, close to acceptable
saturation, but still TOO PALE.

___________________________________________
6. If in step 3 above I select:
Color Options: Color Correction: None

Then the resulting print is somewhat OVER SATURATED.
Almost Intense.  Especially the blue sky on a landscape.
(But if there is no blue sky in the photo, then this setting
is often acceptable.)
___________________________________________

The ideal print is somewhere between the output from
5 and 6 above.
I just don't know how to get there. !!

I've played with every conceivable variation in the PhotoShop
"Print with Preview" options and all the results come out as
very slight variations on one of the above results: 4, 5 or 6.

The overriding control seems to be the choice in the Printer Driver
print dialog for Color Correction (step 3 above):
Color Correction: ColorSync or BJ Standard or None.

If I adjust the Intensity Control in the Printer Driver Print Dialog
box the print just seems to get darker or lighter.  The saturation
or richness of the colors is not really affected.

What am I doing wrong ?
Is it the Printer.  Am I really limited to the above described outputs.
Do I need a custom Profile for this printer ?

Thanks for any help,
Mike

On 12/23/05 5:48 AM, in article
1135338494.754227.240640@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
"mariner5006@yahoo.com" <mariner5006@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> This is a long post, I know.
> But any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
> I'm having an on-going problem getting acceptable
> photo prints from my Canon inkjet printer:
> My prints are either unacceptably UNDER or OVER SATURATED.
> I'm thinking that the problem has to do with the Printer Profiles. ?
>
> I've googled and researched this everyday for about a month now.
> Nada. So here goes a long winded description of the problem.
> Maybe someone out there has had a similar problem.
>
> Note: The following procedures are described for Photoshop CS
> on a Macintosh.
>
> ___________________________________________
> Camera: Olympus C-7000
> Computer: iMac G5, OS 10.4.3, PhotoShop CS
> Printer: Canon ip4000
> Paper: Canon Photo Paper Pro
> Ink: Canon Factory Ink
> ___________________________________________
>
> Printing From Photoshop CS (MACINTOSH):
>
> 1. The Photo file comes from the camera tagged with sRGB.
> On opening in PS, the profile is converted to working space =
> Adobe RGB.
>
> 2. In the "Print with Preview" Dialog Box, the following are selected:
> Color Management:
> Source Space: Document: Adobe RGB.
> Print Space: Profile: Printer Color Management.
> Intent: Perceptual.
> Click on Print
>
> 3. The Printer Driver "Print" Dialog box opens up.
> The following are selected:
> Quality and Media: Photo Paper Pro, Print Top Quality Photo.
> Color Options: Color Correction: ColorSync.
> Click on Print
>
> 4. The resulting print is VERY UNDER SATURATED.
> The colors are pretty much accurate only very pale. Washed out.
> Especially skin tones.
> ___________________________________________
> 5. If in step 3 above I select:
> Color Options: Color Correction: BJ Standard
> (the recommended CC selection);
> Print type: Photo;  Brightness Normal.
>
> Then the resulting print is a little better, close to acceptable
> saturation, but still TOO PALE.
>
> ___________________________________________
> 6. If in step 3 above I select:
> Color Options: Color Correction: None
>
> Then the resulting print is somewhat OVER SATURATED.
> Almost Intense.  Especially the blue sky on a landscape.
> (But if there is no blue sky in the photo, then this setting
> is often acceptable.)
> ___________________________________________
>
> The ideal print is somewhere between the output from
> 5 and 6 above.
> I just don't know how to get there. !!
>
> I've played with every conceivable variation in the PhotoShop
> "Print with Preview" options and all the results come out as
> very slight variations on one of the above results: 4, 5 or 6.
>
> The overriding control seems to be the choice in the Printer Driver
> print dialog for Color Correction (step 3 above):
> Color Correction: ColorSync or BJ Standard or None.
>
> If I adjust the Intensity Control in the Printer Driver Print Dialog
> box the print just seems to get darker or lighter.  The saturation
> or richness of the colors is not really affected.
>
> What am I doing wrong ?
> Is it the Printer.  Am I really limited to the above described outputs.
> Do I need a custom Profile for this printer ?
>
> Thanks for any help,
> Mike
>

Just a few suggestions that you can try.  Your option 6 above is the correct
one - if you do anything else in the printer driver you are double color
managing.  Have you profiled your monitor?  If you don't have a device for
doing that, like a Colorvision Spyder, the Mac contains an excellent
software tool in System Preferences called Displays.  It is possible that
your edits are causing the over saturated images, your monitor just isn't
showing it!
Also, where did you get the paper profile that you are using?  Is it a Epson
profile?  My experience with Epson's profiles for their higher end printers
is that they are now very good.  However, I have been told by others that
that has not always been the case.  Is your profile a recently published
one?
Alternatively you could try a different brand a paper with a profile written
specifically for your printer and that paper.  I know that Red River paper
provides profiles for their papers and your brand and model of printer:
http://www.redrivercatalog.com/
Although I do frequently use their papers I have absolutely no connection
with them.  I am just showing that as an example of an alternative solution.
There are other sources of paper and custom profiles.
Chuck

On 12/23/05 10:21 AM, in article
BFD18038.4D097%wright9_nojunk@nojunk_mac.com, "C Wright"
<wright9_nojunk@nojunk_mac.com> wrote:

> On 12/23/05 5:48 AM, in article
> 1135338494.754227.240640@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com,
> "mariner5006@yahoo.com" <mariner5006@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
>
> Just a few suggestions that you can try.  Your option 6 above is the corre
ct
> one - if you do anything else in the printer driver you are double color
> managing.  Have you profiled your monitor?  If you don't have a device for
> doing that, like a Colorvision Spyder, the Mac contains an excellent
> software tool in System Preferences called Displays.  It is possible that
> your edits are causing the over saturated images, your monitor just isn't
> showing it!
> Also, where did you get the paper profile that you are using?  Is it a Eps
on
> profile?  My experience with Epson's profiles for their higher end printer
s
> is that they are now very good.  However, I have been told by others that
> that has not always been the case.  Is your profile a recently published
> one?
> Alternatively you could try a different brand a paper with a profile writt
en
> specifically for your printer and that paper.  I know that Red River paper
> provides profiles for their papers and your brand and model of printer:
> http://www.redrivercatalog.com/
> Although I do frequently use their papers I have absolutely no connection
> with them.  I am just showing that as an example of an alternative solutio
n.
> There are other sources of paper and custom profiles.
> Chuck
>
Responding to my own post. I should have woke up before replying! I am
talking about Epson profiles and I see you said that have a Canon printer!
I guess that when I saw the "4000" I immediately started thinking of the
Epson 4000 (a very good printer). Most of my comments still apply.  I have
used a Canon 19900 printer and have found their profiles to be pretty good
but this still might be an area for you to take a look at.  You could also
consider having someone do a custom profile for you.  This is one person who
does them:
http://www.cathysprofiles.com/
I have not used her profiles but have, on numerous occasions, heard others
make favorable comments.
Chuck

Chuck,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

As you said, my option 6 is the correct way to go, to avoid
double color managing. I'm starting to understand this.

As I said, this option provides almost acceptable prints.
They are just a little oversaturated. Except for blue sky
in a landscape.  Blue sky is way too deep blue, too intense,
edge of the stratosphere blue.

I'm having a hard time believing that I'm the 1st person to have this
problem, though.  Or that I really need to go to a custom printer
profile
to get reasonable results.  But I will look into it. Thanks for the
link
to cathysprofiles.

Mike.

<mariner5006@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1135427296.980702.102400@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Chuck,
>
> Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
>
> As you said, my option 6 is the correct way to go, to avoid
> double color managing. I'm starting to understand this.
>
> As I said, this option provides almost acceptable prints.
> They are just a little oversaturated. Except for blue sky
> in a landscape.  Blue sky is way too deep blue, too intense,
> edge of the stratosphere blue.
>
> I'm having a hard time believing that I'm the 1st person to have this
> problem, though.  Or that I really need to go to a custom printer
> profile
> to get reasonable results.  But I will look into it. Thanks for the
> link
> to cathysprofiles.
>
> Mike.
>

Hi.

Your current workflow seems reasonable, and in spite of what a number of
people have said, you are not double profiling.    When you select "Printer
Management" in the Ps Print with Preview "Output  Profile" you are telling
Ps to do NO Colour Management,  and letting ONLY the Printer Driver do it.

If you select one of your Printer/Paper Profiles in that box, then you need
to ensure that the Printer does no Colour Management.   That is a simple
task with an Epson printer, but from what I can gather is not straight
forward with Canon Printers.

It is a long while since I used a Mac, so can not give precise advice, but
have you checked that the Printer/Paper Profiles are actually installed in
the correct Folder, and that the specific one you need is present.

Once you find the profiles, you can identify which Paper they are intended
for in the Profile Properties Dialogues.

I presume that you have calibrated your Monitor, including setting it to the
correct Colour Temp which is 6500K.   I understand that the perceived
wisdom, nowadays, is that newer Mac Monitors should be set to a Gamma of
2.2, just like PC Monitors, instead of the 1.8 they used to advise.

Most printing Problems can be traced to either double profiling or to an
incorrect Monitor Profile/Calibration.

For Workflows for "Basic" Printing, (their idea of Basic), have a look at
www.digital-darkroom.com.  Most of the screen shots are from Macs, but most
of the Printers are Epson.

Hope this helps a little.

Roy G