I have set myself the task of answering the question "is it possible to
use frames in a way that avoids the nastiness usually associated with them?"

Let us look at some of the major usability problems with frames:

1. You can't bookmark a particular combination of frames;
2. If you enter the collection of pages from any page other than the
frameset you have no navigation;
3. Frames degrade badly in browser that have no frames support; and
4. Frames often cause a proliferation of scroll bars.

I believe the frameset here avoids the first three problems and mostly
avoids the fourth:
http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/glorious/frameset.php

Source code to the PHP files can be found here for closer inspection:
http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/glorious/

Any ideas for improvements?

Hugs and kisses,

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me  ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact

Toby Inkster wrote:

> I have set myself the task of answering the question "is it possible to
> use frames in a way that avoids the nastiness usually associated with them
?"
>
> Let us look at some of the major usability problems with frames:
>
> 1. You can't bookmark a particular combination of frames;
> 2. If you enter the collection of pages from any page other than the
> frameset you have no navigation;
> 3. Frames degrade badly in browser that have no frames support; and
> 4. Frames often cause a proliferation of scroll bars.
>
> I believe the frameset here avoids the first three problems and mostly
> avoids the fourth:
> http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/glorious/frameset.php
>
> Source code to the PHP files can be found here for closer inspection:
> http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/glorious/
>
> Any ideas for improvements?
>
> Hugs and kisses,
>

I've used parameter passing to a frameset before... it actually works
really well. subhuman.net uses it when you pass an article ID to the
index page (it loads the correct article into an iframe).

--


x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #

Toby Inkster wrote:

> I have set myself the task of answering the question "is it
> possible to use frames in a way that avoids the nastiness
> usually associated with them?"
>
> Let us look at some of the major usability problems with
> frames:
>
> 1. You can't bookmark a particular combination of frames;
> 2. If you enter the collection of pages from any page other
> than the frameset you have no navigation;
> 3. Frames degrade badly in browser that have no frames
> support; and 4. Frames often cause a proliferation of
> scroll bars.
>
> I believe the frameset here avoids the first three problems
> and mostly avoids the fourth:
> http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/glorious/frameset.php
>
> Source code to the PHP files can be found here for closer
> inspection: http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/glorious/
>
> Any ideas for improvements?

Get the background color consistent:
If I get the right frame seperately, it has a white background
(was black after clicking your link). Then I add the left
frame, it's all white. But if I bookmark the complete
frameset, the left frame comes back black, while the right one
remains black. Or was that all on purpose? :-)

Hmm... clicking again on your link now, also gives black in
the left pane, white in the right one... Maybe I'm mistaken
and the right pane never was black? :S

--
Els                     http://locusmeus.com/
Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -
Now playing: Ashanti - Rock Wit U (Aww Baby)

Toby Inkster wrote:
> I have set myself the task of answering the question "is it possible to
> use frames in a way that avoids the nastiness usually associated with them
?"
>
> Let us look at some of the major usability problems with frames:
>
> 1. You can't bookmark a particular combination of frames;
> 2. If you enter the collection of pages from any page other than the
> frameset you have no navigation;
> 3. Frames degrade badly in browser that have no frames support; and
> 4. Frames often cause a proliferation of scroll bars.
>
> I believe the frameset here avoids the first three problems and mostly
> avoids the fourth:
> http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/glorious/frameset.php

I don't see the advantage to using frames here, especially since you're
using PHP. Why not just do it with PHP?

--
Ben M.

Ben Measures wrote:
> Toby Inkster wrote:
> 
>
> I don't see the advantage to using frames here, especially since you're
> using PHP. Why not just do it with PHP?

The advantage of using frames is thus: if I don't use frames, then I
haven't answered my original question; if I do use frames then I might be
able to answer my original question. And that is the advantage of using
frames.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me  ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact

Toby Inkster wrote:
> Ben Measures wrote: 
>
> The advantage of using frames is thus: if I don't use frames, then I
> haven't answered my original question; if I do use frames then I
> might be
> able to answer my original question. And that is the advantage of
> using frames.

I understand your comments here, and I also understand the point of Ben
Measures comment / question.  However, Ben Measures may not understand that
you are _not_ pointing out any *advantage* of using frames... you are merely
pointing out that is is possible to build a site structure that may use
frames without the mastiness.

I dont think that *anwering your question* is an advantage of using frames.
However, your use of frames does definately answer your question, and
therefore, this fact is the only advantage that I can see for using frames.

Indeed... it does avoid the nastiness that you have pointed out.

I just felt that I needed ot clear that up for myself. -- helps me think
about things like why are there never teaspoons in the drawer at work.

Thanks

Toby Inkster wrote:

> I have set myself the task of answering the question "is it possible to
> use frames in a way that avoids the nastiness usually associated with
> them?"
>
> Let us look at some of the major usability problems with frames:
>
> 1. You can't bookmark a particular combination of frames;
> 2. If you enter the collection of pages from any page other than the
> frameset you have no navigation;
> 3. Frames degrade badly in browser that have no frames support; and
> 4. Frames often cause a proliferation of scroll bars.
>
> I believe the frameset here avoids the first three problems and mostly
> avoids the fourth:
> http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/glorious/frameset.php
>
> Source code to the PHP files can be found here for closer inspection:
> http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/glorious/
>
> Any ideas for improvements?
>
> Hugs and kisses,
>
Squeezed and smacked, thank you.

Right Frame:
Every page of the  right hand frame needs redundant navigation so that
robots don't get confused. This could be small and at the bottom,
but it needs to be there.

Main Document Source:
While repeating the material in the right frame in the main document
source might be useful, it will be less useful if there are more than one
page of the right frame.  A much more useful redundance here would
be to repeat the left-frame-navigation in a <noframe>.

But:
All that being said, I just two weeks ago spend three days killing the
last visiges of the nasty things from some subsites at my personal site, and
feel it was definitely the right decision.
--
m          http://www.mbstevens.com/

Disco Octopus wrote:
> Toby Inkster wrote: 
>
> I dont think that *anwering your question* is an advantage of using frames
.
> However, your use of frames does definately answer your question, and
> therefore, this fact is the only advantage that I can see for using frames
.
>
> Indeed... it does avoid the nastiness that you have pointed out.

It seems I forgot to mention that in order to satisfy point 3 [1] the
size of the downloaded HTML has doubled. IMO this at least needs a
compensating advantage.

[1] Toby Inkster wrote:
> 3. Frames degrade badly in browser that have no frames support;

--
Ben M.

"Toby Inkster" <usenet200407@tobyinkster.co.uk> wrote in message
news:pan.2004.07.26.22.31.22.238208@tobyinkster.co.uk...
> I have set myself the task of answering the question "is it possible to
> use frames in a way that avoids the nastiness usually associated with them
?"
>
> Let us look at some of the major usability problems with frames:
>
> 1. You can't bookmark a particular combination of frames;
> 2. If you enter the collection of pages from any page other than the
> frameset you have no navigation;
> 3. Frames degrade badly in browser that have no frames support; and
> 4. Frames often cause a proliferation of scroll bars.
>
> I believe the frameset here avoids the first three problems and mostly
> avoids the fourth:
> http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/glorious/frameset.php
>

Of course, clicking on the navigation bar missing link repeats the frameset
within the main frame, ad-nauseum?

2. if I enter the page at mainframe.php?page=aenean_feugiat I get no navigat
ion.
How does that avoid 2 above? (interested to know :-)

Toby Inkster wrote:
> I have set myself the task of answering the question "is it possible to
> use frames in a way that avoids the nastiness usually associated with them
?"
>
> Let us look at some of the major usability problems with frames:
>
> 1. You can't bookmark a particular combination of frames;
> 2. If you enter the collection of pages from any page other than the
> frameset you have no navigation;
> 3. Frames degrade badly in browser that have no frames support; and
> 4. Frames often cause a proliferation of scroll bars.

5. A browser that doesn't have frames enabled
(including Google), usually displays a message
like "Your browser doesn't support frames. Click
here to download a new version of Internet Explorer".
Nasty.



--
Inger Helene Falch-Jacobsen
http://home.online.no/~ingerfaj/