Comments re these three related, proposed CSS 3 additions?

1.  Add 'text-transform:time', which would transform text in the format
hours:minutes:seconds (24 hour clock) to the local format for displaying the
time, e.g. <span style="text-transform:time;">23:15</span> might be rendered
as 11:15PM or 23:15.

2.  Add 'text-transform:date', which would transform text in the format
year-month-day to text in the local format for displaying the date, e.g.
<span style="text-transform:date;">2004-07-23</span> might be rendered
07/23/04, 23/07/04, 07/23/2004, 23/07/2004, or whatever.

3.  Add 'text-transform:number', which would transform a number per the
local format for displaying a number, e.g. <span
style="text-transform:number;">123,456,789.01</span> might be rendered as
123,456,789.01, 123 456 789,01, 123.456.789,01, or whatever.

The objective, of course, is to be able to have times, dates, and numbers in
content rendered in formats with which the user is most familiar, e.g. into
the formats which in Windows are specified by Control Panel, Regional
Settings.

C A Upsdell wrote:

> Comments re these three related, proposed CSS 3 additions?
>
> 1.  Add 'text-transform:time', which would transform text
> in the format hours:minutes:seconds (24 hour clock) to the
> local format for displaying the time, e.g. <span
> style="text-transform:time;">23:15</span> might be rendered
> as 11:15PM or 23:15.
>
> 2.  Add 'text-transform:date', which would transform text
> in the format year-month-day to text in the local format
> for displaying the date, e.g. <span
> style="text-transform:date;">2004-07-23</span> might be
> rendered 07/23/04, 23/07/04, 07/23/2004, 23/07/2004, or
> whatever.
>
> 3.  Add 'text-transform:number', which would transform a
> number per the local format for displaying a number, e.g.
> <span style="text-transform:number;">123,456,789.01</span>
> might be rendered as 123,456,789.01, 123 456 789,01,
> 123.456.789,01, or whatever.
>
> The objective, of course, is to be able to have times,
> dates, and numbers in content rendered in formats with
> which the user is most familiar, e.g. into the formats
> which in Windows are specified by Control Panel, Regional
> Settings.

Why the local format?

If I'm reading an English webpage in Holland, I expect
1000,000 to mean 1 million. If the local format would be
applied, 1000,000 means 1000 and zero thousandths.
(is that an English word?)

Same goes for the date, although maybe less problematic.
My local (Dutch) format for date is day-month-year.
But when I'm reading an American page, I expect 7-3-1999 to
mean the 3rd of July, not the 7th of March.

As for the time, I don't know what the local format would
mean. The format I installed on my pc, or what is most common
in the country? We use both 3pm and 15.00. I prefer the 24
hour system, but not everybody is the same.

--
Els
http://locusmeus.com/
Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -

"Els" <els.aNOSPAM@tiscali.nl> wrote in message
news:Xns952FC130B4EA2Els@130.133.1.4...
> C A Upsdell wrote:
> 
>
> Why the local format?
>
> If I'm reading an English webpage in Holland, I expect
> 1000,000 to mean 1 million. If the local format would be
> applied, 1000,000 means 1000 and zero thousandths.
> (is that an English word?)
>
> Same goes for the date, although maybe less problematic.
> My local (Dutch) format for date is day-month-year.
> But when I'm reading an American page, I expect 7-3-1999 to
> mean the 3rd of July, not the 7th of March.
>
> As for the time, I don't know what the local format would
> mean. The format I installed on my pc, or what is most common
> in the country? We use both 3pm and 15.00. I prefer the 24
> hour system, but not everybody is the same.

How your local formats are determined will, of course, be O/S dependent.
With Windows I believe that the default format is determined by your choice
of keyboard (e.g. Windows supports Dutch/Netherlands and Dutch/Belgium) but
with Control Panel / Regional Settings you can choose the format you
personally prefer.  Indeed, I have done this for my PC, by specifying a
preferred date format of year/month/day even though that it not the standard
notation for my country.

When I said 'local format' above, I mean your PC's default format as
customized by you.  So if you prefer a 24-hour clock, that is what you would
see.

You say that when you go to a US site, you expect to see information
formatted according to the US conventions.  Presumably this means that when
you go to a Canadian site, your would expect to see information formatted
according to Canadian conventions:  but do know what the conventions are for
all countries?  (Hint: Canada uses both month/day/year and day/month/year.)
My proposal would enable the designer to use my proposed CSS3 additions to
ensure that dates, times, and numbers are formatted in YOUR preferred
format.

C A Upsdell wrote:

> "Els" <els.aNOSPAM@tiscali.nl> wrote in message
> news:Xns952FC130B4EA2Els@130.133.1.4... 
>
> How your local formats are determined will, of course, be
> O/S dependent. With Windows I believe that the default
> format is determined by your choice of keyboard (e.g.
> Windows supports Dutch/Netherlands and Dutch/Belgium) but
> with Control Panel / Regional Settings you can choose the
> format you personally prefer.  Indeed, I have done this for
> my PC, by specifying a preferred date format of
> year/month/day even though that it not the standard
> notation for my country.
>
> When I said 'local format' above, I mean your PC's default
> format as customized by you.  So if you prefer a 24-hour
> clock, that is what you would see.
>
> You say that when you go to a US site, you expect to see
> information formatted according to the US conventions.

Yes.

> Presumably this means that when you go to a Canadian site,
> your would expect to see information formatted according to
> Canadian conventions:  but do know what the conventions are
> for all countries?

I don't. But as for the date, that's why I put 30-apr-2004 on
my site, there is no way anybody can misunderstand that.

> (Hint: Canada uses both month/day/year
> and day/month/year.)

Not everybody will use the CSS text-transform properties,
which means I would still have to look in the source to see if
7/3/2004 means 7 March or 3 July. I prefer to be able to
recognise "Ah, another Canadian site, so it means July 7"
instead of "Ah, another Candian site, let's look in the source
if it's the Canadian format or my own PC's format".

> My proposal would enable the designer
> to use my proposed CSS3 additions to ensure that dates,
> times, and numbers are formatted in YOUR preferred format.

My OS is in American keyboard mode. With the local format on
numbers, numbers on a Dutch site would be
a million: 1000,000.
Any Dutch person on a Dutch site expects 1000.000.

--
Els                     http://locusmeus.com/
Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -
Now playing: Daryl Hall and John Oates - Rich Girl

"Els" <els.aNOSPAM@tiscali.nl> wrote in message
news:Xns952FCCFB6F24Els@130.133.1.4... 

> Not everybody will use the CSS text-transform properties,
> which means I would still have to look in the source to see if
> 7/3/2004 means 7 March or 3 July. I prefer to be able to
> recognise "Ah, another Canadian site, so it means July 7"
> instead of "Ah, another Candian site, let's look in the source
> if it's the Canadian format or my own PC's format".

I understand your concern, but I wonder about your ability to guess (a) the
site's country and (b) the country's convention(s).  E.g., what country is
my site http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/ ?

Another point is that, since the use of text-transform would tell the
browser what type of content the text is (i.e., number, date, or time), the
browser could (perhaps optionally) pass this information on to the user when
the cursor hovers over the content.  E.g., hovering the cursor over '7/3/04'
might display the tooltip 'month/day/year'.

In message
<pmbMc.1164468$Ar.540103@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, C A
Upsdell <cupsdell0311XXX@-.?.invalid> writes
>1.  Add 'text-transform:time', which would transform text in the format
>hours:minutes:seconds (24 hour clock) to the local format for displaying th
e
>time, e.g. <span style="text-transform:time;">23:15</span> might be rendere
d
>as 11:15PM or 23:15.
>
>2.  Add 'text-transform:date', which would transform text in the format
>year-month-day to text in the local format for displaying the date, e.g.
><span style="text-transform:date;">2004-07-23</span> might be rendered
>07/23/04, 23/07/04, 07/23/2004, 23/07/2004, or whatever.
>
>3.  Add 'text-transform:number', which would transform a number per the
>local format for displaying a number, e.g. <span
>style="text-transform:number;">123,456,789.01</span> might be rendered as
>123,456,789.01, 123 456 789,01, 123.456.789,01, or whatever.

It's completely backwards.  This stuff should be in the mark-up
language, not in the styling language.

E.g. <time>23:15</time> should be the HTML to include a time, and if the
user wants to configure their browser to render times in a specific way,
then that should be between them and their user agent.

As a page author, if you want the user to see 11:15PM, then just write
it that way (!).

Ditto for date.

The number one is a bit dangerous - if it isn't clear from the context
whether "." or "," is the decimal separator, then the consequences of a
style sheet not getting applied could cause an industrial accident!

--
George Lund

C A Upsdell wrote:

> "Els" <els.aNOSPAM@tiscali.nl> wrote in message
> news:Xns952FCCFB6F24Els@130.133.1.4... 
> 
>
> I understand your concern, but I wonder about your ability
> to guess (a) the site's country and (b) the country's
> convention(s).  E.g., what country is my site
> http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/ ?

Without looking at it, my first guess would be American. It
could just as well be Dutch though. My own site is a .com
domain, hosted in the USA, written in (hopefully UK-) English,
but I'm Dutch.

Then, looking at it:
I still think USA, and see your date is of an internationally
readable format: July 17, 2004. No matter where in the world I
am, I'll understand that format.
But, to know what site I'm on, I'll click on the trolley ;-)
Yep, USA. Or at least, aimed at the USA. Otherwise you
wouldn't have a seperate flag for "Canadian shoppers" :-)

Of course, the best way would be to Americanize every site in
the whole wide world, that way everybody knows what to expect
everywhere. (Mind you, I'm against that! ;-) )

> Another point is that, since the use of text-transform
> would tell the browser what type of content the text is
> (i.e., number, date, or time), the browser could (perhaps
> optionally) pass this information on to the user when the
> cursor hovers over the content.  E.g., hovering the cursor
> over '7/3/04' might display the tooltip 'month/day/year'.

Now, there is something useful. Would have to be in the
validator too, just like the alt attribute is now. And not
accepting empty values...

Still remains the formatting of numbers though... 1000,000 !=
1000.000. You want a tooltip saying "one million"?

--
Els
http://locusmeus.com/
Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -

"George Lund" <george@lund.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Sj0a0cDxXWABFw$J@lund.co.uk...
> In message
> <pmbMc.1164468$Ar.540103@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com>, C A
> Upsdell <cupsdell0311XXX@-.?.invalid> writes 
the 
rendered 
>
> It's completely backwards.  This stuff should be in the mark-up
> language, not in the styling language.

I had thought of HTML changes, but since the proposed new feature would
control presentation, I thought it better as CSS.

> E.g. <time>23:15</time> should be the HTML to include a time, and if the
> user wants to configure their browser to render times in a specific way,
> then that should be between them and their user agent.
>
> As a page author, if you want the user to see 11:15PM, then just write
> it that way (!).
>
> Ditto for date.

But this leaves the content open to confusion.  E.g. is 7/03/04
month/day/year, or day/month/year, or year/month/day, or what?  One can
choose to use unambiguous formats -- e.g. 2004/07/03 is pretty clearly
year/month/day -- but this will annoy a lot of people who are convinced that
their way is the right way.

> The number one is a bit dangerous - if it isn't clear from the context
> whether "." or "," is the decimal separator, then the consequences of a
> style sheet not getting applied could cause an industrial accident!

But this problem exists today:  what is, for example, '100,001'?  To many it
means one hundred thousand and one; to many others who use metric notations
it means one hundred + one thousandths.

C A Upsdell wrote:

> "George Lund" <george@lund.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:Sj0a0cDxXWABFw$J@lund.co.uk... 
> the 
> rendered 
>
> I had thought of HTML changes, but since the proposed new
> feature would control presentation, I thought it better as
> CSS.
> 
>
> But this leaves the content open to confusion.  E.g. is
> 7/03/04 month/day/year, or day/month/year, or
> year/month/day, or what?  One can choose to use unambiguous
> formats -- e.g. 2004/07/03 is pretty clearly year/month/day
> -- but this will annoy a lot of people who are convinced
> that their way is the right way.
> 
>
> But this problem exists today:  what is, for example,
> '100,001'?  To many it means one hundred thousand and one;
> to many others who use metric notations it means one
> hundred + one thousandths.

yes, but it would be consistent within one site or language.
Are there English speaking countries where 100,001 means one
hundred thousand and one?

Disabling the stylesheet could be bad indeed.
Anywhere, 100001 will mean one hundred thousand and one.
The unstyled format however would have to be with "." and/or
"," too, or else it's impossible to distinguish between
1000,01 and 100,001.

--
Els
http://locusmeus.com/
Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -

"Els" <els.aNOSPAM@tiscali.nl> wrote in message
news:Xns952FDBFB2C15EEls@130.133.1.4...
> C A Upsdell wrote:
> 
>
> Without looking at it, my first guess would be American. It
> could just as well be Dutch though. My own site is a .com
> domain, hosted in the USA, written in (hopefully UK-) English,
> but I'm Dutch.

As it happens, I am Canadian.  And, as it happens, we use two date formats:
mainly month/day/year in English-speaking Canada, and day/month/year in
French-speaking Canada, but there are plenty of exceptions.

> Then, looking at it:
> I still think USA, and see your date is of an internationally
> readable format: July 17, 2004. No matter where in the world I
> am, I'll understand that format.

And that is why I choose to use an internationally unambiguous format.  But
many others do not.

> But, to know what site I'm on, I'll click on the trolley ;-)
> Yep, USA. Or at least, aimed at the USA. Otherwise you
> wouldn't have a seperate flag for "Canadian shoppers" :-)

USA because I know that a lot more users are American than Canadian.
 
>
> Now, there is something useful. Would have to be in the
> validator too, just like the alt attribute is now. And not
> accepting empty values...

I would not have to be in a validator:  since the browser can understand the
semantics, it needs no further information to tell it what tooltip is
appropriate.

> Still remains the formatting of numbers though... 1000,000 !=
> 1000.000. You want a tooltip saying "one million"?

No, but it could be something like 'nnn,nnn.nn', which clearly says it uses
a ',' as a thousands separator, and '.' as a decimal separator.