PainShop Pro Scripting - Re: Caption for photo

Author

Re: Caption for photo - crediting knowledge by Suz

Joske

2006-06-08, 7:39 pm

SuzShook wrote:
> Joske wrote:
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> I need to make something abundantly clear here about my Tips &
> Tricks. I accumulate the information for the Tips from many
> sources, and test and retest it before I place any of it in my
> document. Mostly, I choose "stuff" that I've adopted and that
> makes a difference for me in my work, and that I believe will
> help other users in theirs. However, citing all the contributors
> to this effort - all those users who have shared an AHA
> moment - would be an exercise in futility,

I fully agree that often useful information for other users (those
not following these groups as closely as we do) comes from a
succession of ideas by different people. Not always, as I know
myself for a fact, but fairly often.

> I choose NOT to credit individual sources, and have stuck by
> that decision through 4 releases of PSP.

> The only exception to this decision is in the
> PSP X Tips where I inserted an entire article contributed by
> Fred. That was done because of its length and depth of detail,
> and Fred's suggestion (and offer) that it be added to my Tips.

> However, that was an exception.

> Let's be frank here and admit that
> what we've discovered has been discovered by many others before
> us, and will be discovered by many others after us. So these are
> not personal discoveries, but just individuals reporting what
> their latest Eureka moments are/have been.

This may go for all your discoveries and ideas, Suz. It certainly
doesn't go for all of mine.

I am not talking about graphics, but the use of techniques. Even
though I am never asked, some of my original ideas are taken up by
teachers or tutorial writers.

> I don't want to get into another discussion about citing
> contributors - we beat that to death when I published the Errata
> document

I wasn't personally involved in that discussion because I could tell
how set you are on this by the way you addressed Marjolein. My
silence did not mean however that I agree with your stance.

> Suffice it to say that I never add Tips without making them
> mine first.

Since you mention being frank, allow me to be as well.

You earned a good name mainly by becoming a teacher at LVS, and thus
being linked to and referenced and recommended everywhere.

However, by your own description of how you come by your material
and how you consider the ideas and efforts of others (too futile to
credit), this is mainly due to the fact that you have taken the
(appreciated without doubt) trouble of gathering on your site
everything we and staff provide in knowledge.

Now, if you read back to where I describe how original ideas by me
are taken by people who earn money or a good name... Are you of the
opinion that every PSP user has to be assertively visible and
well-networked in order to be widely respected for what they do, and
that otherwise their (original) methods can be 'made yours' as you
put it?

In my view, it would be simply a matter of course to give credit
where credit is due - to prevent any suggestion of taking money and
a good name over the work and knowledge of others. As it is, you
must surely be aware that the majority of visitors who haven't been
around in PSP groups as long as I have, think that all the knowledge
on that site is exclusively thought up by you.

Suz - although I have no idea where you get the more complicated
scripting code, I do appreciate you making it available. However,
even in this case I personally would feel much more comfortable with
knowing where and from whom you got your information.

Joske
--
http://members.home.nl/j.a.c.backer/

SuzShook

2006-06-08, 7:39 pm

Joske wrote:
> SuzShook wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I fully agree that often useful information for other users (those
> not following these groups as closely as we do) comes from a
> succession of ideas by different people. Not always, as I know
> myself for a fact, but fairly often.
>
>
>
>
>
> This may go for all your discoveries and ideas, Suz. It certainly
> doesn't go for all of mine.
>
> I am not talking about graphics, but the use of techniques. Even
> though I am never asked, some of my original ideas are taken up by
> teachers or tutorial writers.
>
>
> I wasn't personally involved in that discussion because I could tell
> how set you are on this by the way you addressed Marjolein. My
> silence did not mean however that I agree with your stance.
>
>
> Since you mention being frank, allow me to be as well.
>
> You earned a good name mainly by becoming a teacher at LVS, and thus
> being linked to and referenced and recommended everywhere.

I became a teacher at LVS less than a year ago - I think my reputation was
already well-established before that time. I have no idea why you make
these statements.
>
> However, by your own description of how you come by your material
> and how you consider the ideas and efforts of others (too futile to
> credit), this is mainly due to the fact that you have taken the
> (appreciated without doubt) trouble of gathering on your site
> everything we and staff provide in knowledge.
>
> Now, if you read back to where I describe how original ideas by me
> are taken by people who earn money or a good name... Are you of the
> opinion that every PSP user has to be assertively visible and
> well-networked in order to be widely respected for what they do, and
> that otherwise their (original) methods can be 'made yours' as you
> put it?
>
> In my view, it would be simply a matter of course to give credit
> where credit is due - to prevent any suggestion of taking money and
> a good name over the work and knowledge of others. As it is, you
> must surely be aware that the majority of visitors who haven't been
> around in PSP groups as long as I have, think that all the knowledge
> on that site is exclusively thought up by you.

I clearly state at the beginning of my Tips & Tricks document: "This list
contains little tips and tricks I've learned from tutorial writers, and
forums, and classes, and books, and newsgroups and just about anything and
everything across the world. I add to this list when I discover a new trick,
or remember a trick that has really helped me be more productive using PSP.
I have chosen to omit sources for these tips - listing them would
unnecessarily clutter this already long document. Thanks for understanding.

So I think I've made it clear enough, even though you and others may not
think that statement "covers" me. I will continue to add tips to that list,
as I have for the past several years. It's not just a collection of things
I have gathered from "you and staff" - these are things I use, and tips I
feel would be helpful to others. Some of these tips actually come (partly
at least) from the PSP User's Guide - but they're presented in a way that
makes sense to me, and are often further expounded upon. I don't claim to
have "discovered" all of them totally in a vacuum - but they are things I
use. When I say "make them my own", I don't mean I claim they come from my
own mind - I mean, I have adopted them and use them and don't just include
the ideas in my Tips unless I do that. I can honestly say I understand and
can explain anything I have in that document - it's not just a compendium of
the ideas of others, but a list of things I've discovered and use and
understand.

> Suz - although I have no idea where you get the more complicated
> scripting code, I do appreciate you making it available. However,
> even in this case I personally would feel much more comfortable with
> knowing where and from whom you got your information.

Are you talking about any code in particular? I have to say that most of my
more complicated scripting code has been developed through much hard work of
my own. I've taught myself the basics of Python, and I've experimented and
experimented some more so that I can make things work. Once I understood
the basics of Python, I was able to study scripts, and figure out
(sometimes) how the script authors got their scripts to do what they do. I
create my own code - if I use a function developed by another, I credit that
person, as I do Gary Barton many times in my scripts. I quite often start
with a request for code to accomplish a certain task, and I figure out how
to do it. I have many Python books, and there are abundant resources on the
web, all of which I search through when I'm looking for a way to write a
script to do a specific task. Code is reuseable, by it's very nature. I've
been a programmer too many years to think I can code a routine that is
exclusively mine. If I have figured out how to do something, there are
hundreds and thousands of others out there who've figured out the same
thing. That's all I can say. We just see things differently. I am truly
sorry if the way I do things creates a problem for you, Joske. Really, I
am. Suz
>
> Joske

W.Madison

2006-06-08, 7:39 pm

"Joske" <j.backer@home.nl> wrote in message news:44886d1b$1_1@cnews...
> SuzShook wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I fully agree that often useful information for other users (those
> not following these groups as closely as we do) comes from a
> succession of ideas by different people. Not always, as I know
> myself for a fact, but fairly often.
>
>
>
>
>
> This may go for all your discoveries and ideas, Suz. It certainly
> doesn't go for all of mine.
>
> I am not talking about graphics, but the use of techniques. Even
> though I am never asked, some of my original ideas are taken up by
> teachers or tutorial writers.
>
>
> I wasn't personally involved in that discussion because I could tell
> how set you are on this by the way you addressed Marjolein. My
> silence did not mean however that I agree with your stance.
>
>
> Since you mention being frank, allow me to be as well.
>
> You earned a good name mainly by becoming a teacher at LVS, and thus
> being linked to and referenced and recommended everywhere.
>
> However, by your own description of how you come by your material
> and how you consider the ideas and efforts of others (too futile to
> credit), this is mainly due to the fact that you have taken the
> (appreciated without doubt) trouble of gathering on your site
> everything we and staff provide in knowledge.
>
> Now, if you read back to where I describe how original ideas by me
> are taken by people who earn money or a good name... Are you of the
> opinion that every PSP user has to be assertively visible and
> well-networked in order to be widely respected for what they do, and
> that otherwise their (original) methods can be 'made yours' as you
> put it?
>
> In my view, it would be simply a matter of course to give credit
> where credit is due - to prevent any suggestion of taking money and
> a good name over the work and knowledge of others. As it is, you
> must surely be aware that the majority of visitors who haven't been
> around in PSP groups as long as I have, think that all the knowledge
> on that site is exclusively thought up by you.
>
> Suz - although I have no idea where you get the more complicated
> scripting code, I do appreciate you making it available. However,
> even in this case I personally would feel much more comfortable with
> knowing where and from whom you got your information.
>
> Joske
> --
> http://members.home.nl/j.a.c.backer/
>
>

I suppose that all the software vendors who use public beta testing also
need to list individually every single name of every single person who ever
found a bug, found a work around, found a new/better way to use a tool and
give credit to every single person who even downloads and tests the
software. I bet that would have given us a much thicker PSPX user manual,
huh?

Suz Shook is a very nice person both publicly and in any private dealings I
have had with her, and I think it's very good of her to post the info she
has on her site at her own expense and on her own time, and so what if she's
an LVS instructor or even a professor at MIT (she's not to my knowledge, but
what if she were!) Who gives a real hoot where the info came from as long as
every one can benefit from it. At the very least Suz is nice and tries to
help instead of make users feel stupid, not like some of the egomaniacs in
this newsgroup as well in the PSP community as a whole.

This whole thing is being blown out of proportion because egos are not being
stroked enough, y'all ought to leave Suz alone and just let everyone benefit
from what she's done. I personally think Suz, as well as Howard, Fred and a
bunch of other folks don't get near enough thanks for how much they
contribute.

Suz had a good name before she ever became an LVS instructor. Perhaps you
just didn't notice that until recently.

Wendy

Joske

2006-06-08, 7:39 pm

SuzShook wrote:
> Joske wrote:
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> I don't claim to have "discovered" all of them totally in a
> vacuum - but they are things I use.

> When I say "make them my own", I don't
> mean I claim they come from my own mind - I mean, I have adopted
> them

> We just see things differently. I am truly sorry if the way I do
> things creates a problem for you, Joske. Really, I am.

Your view is more than clear, Suz :-) You don't acknowledge any
other poster's originality, inventiveness. Nor would you acknowledge
any possible desire not to have their ideas included on a page that
has made you a known expert based on their ideas. This was not news
to me, although your view on them does stand out more clearly than
ever before in the first message you wrote.

My original reply was to Fred, if you remember. You replied instead
and said 'let's be frank'. Well, that is something I can do, and so
I did, and will most likely do again. Knowing you are fully
convinced of your take on the unoriginality of any ideas posted, and
therefore your freedom to make them yours without acknowledgment,
this cannot be a problem for you.

Joske
--
http://members.home.nl/j.a.c.backer/

JoeB

2006-06-11, 4:11 am

"Joske" <j.backer@home.nl> wrote in news:4488ab1b$1_2@cnews:

> SuzShook wrote:

[snipped for brevity]

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>
> Your view is more than clear, Suz :-) You don't acknowledge any
> other poster's originality, inventiveness.

Joske, I'm only entering this because this comment seems unlike
you, particularly since, as anyone looking at Suz' Tips & Tricks
page, gets this at the outset:

"This list contains little tips and tricks I've learned from
tutorial writers, and forums, and classes, and books, and just
about anything and everything across the world! I add to this
list when I discover a new trick, or remember a trick that has
really helped me be more productive using PSP!"

Suz' Tips & Tricks page contains multitudinous little tips and
tricks, and (as she acknowledges in her intro to the page) these
come from things she has learned from anywhere and everywhere.
To credit (or even remember from where or whom) the originator
from whom the idea came for this type of compilation would be a
task of extreme difficulty. And as the Tips & Tricks page is
freely available to the world, I don't see where the problem
lies.

The actual genesis of most of the ideas/solutions/tips/tricks
that show up in these news groups (some of which have shown up on
Suz' site) is, for the most part, likely unknowable. We all pick
up an idea from one post, maybe it adds to something we learned
from Help or a purchased Dummies's or other book, or something
else we read from another person's post on a different problem.
Then we read another query post, have a Eureka moment, and the
previous stuff suddenly combines in the brain to provide an
answer to the new query. Should we have to remember - and credit
- all the sources that provided us the info that led to our
eureka moment and our new tip or trick? The world (as least the
newsgroups world) just doesn't work that way if it's going to be
a practical forum for exchanging info.

I honestly don't like - at all! - getting into "spats" with
people in these groups, 'cause I enjoy all of the personalities
I've interacted with in these groups. But I do think one also
has a responsibility to voice one's thoughts when one thinks
someone (anyone) might be being unfaily characterized. In this
case, I don't see that Suz's Tips & Tricks page claims she is the
originator of the info, and is explicitly claims the contrary.
So it seems unfair to characterize it otherwise, and felt I
should point out my - at least - thoughts.

Perhaps I misunderstood where you were coming from, Joske, and if
so I'm sorry for that, but I'm afraid that's what it seemed like
from reading your posts on this particular matter. As we all
know, it's much easier to mis-interpret text discussions than
vocal ones, 'cause rich content is missing.

Regards,

JoeB

Carrie Osmo

2006-06-11, 4:11 am

Anyway Suz
You got it together and got it up for all of us
thank you thank you thank you
carrie
"SuzShook" <suzshook@adelphia.net> wrote in message news:4488886f$1_3@cnews...

snipped

> I clearly state at the beginning of my Tips & Tricks document: "This list contains little tips and tricks I've learned from
> tutorial writers, and forums, and classes, and books, and newsgroups and just about anything and everything across the world. I
> add to this list when I discover a new trick, or remember a trick that has really helped me be more productive using PSP. I have
> chosen to omit sources for these tips - listing them would unnecessarily clutter this already long document. Thanks for
> understanding.
>

samsteele

2006-06-11, 4:11 am

"Joske" <j.backer@home.nl> wrote in message
news:4488ab1b$1_2@cnews...
> SuzShook wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Your view is more than clear, Suz :-) You don't acknowledge any
> other poster's originality, inventiveness. Nor would you
> acknowledge
> any possible desire not to have their ideas included on a page
> that
> has made you a known expert based on their ideas. This was not
> news
> to me, although your view on them does stand out more clearly
> than
> ever before in the first message you wrote.
>
> My original reply was to Fred, if you remember. You replied
> instead
> and said 'let's be frank'. Well, that is something I can do,
> and so
> I did, and will most likely do again. Knowing you are fully
> convinced of your take on the unoriginality of any ideas
> posted, and
> therefore your freedom to make them yours without
> acknowledgment,
> this cannot be a problem for you.
>
> Joske
> --
> http://members.home.nl/j.a.c.backer/
>
Joske has always enjoyed telling other people what they should do
or how they should behave. I recall when she made a huge issue
about someone snipping part of her post when replying to it. So
long as a post either here or on a web site isn't illegal or
immoral, then it's up to the poster what she or he wants to
write. If Joske doesn't like it, too bad!!!

As far as originality is concerned, most ideas depend on the
context in which they are formed. In a fertile environment our
ideas get cross fertilized from communal interactions. For
example, Newton and Leibniz got the idea for calculus at nearly
the same time. Who was responsible for its invention? Who knows?
Actually both. Darwin and Wallace came out with similar theories
on Evolution at nearly the same time. I have several patents in
my own name, and there are several others that people got credit
for that developed from my original creative ideas. That doesn't
bother me because if I hadn't thought of them someone else would
have. The time was ripe for them to be discovered. If you look
through history, you'll find that multiple people seem to come up
with advances nearly simultaneously. Why? Because advances are
built on the consensus of many individuals and the time is ripe
for those particular advances.

Bob

Joske

2006-06-11, 4:11 am

JoeB wrote:
> "Joske" wrote
> [snipped for brevity]

> Joske, I'm only entering this because this comment seems
> unlike you

> But I do think one also
> has a responsibility to voice one's thoughts when one thinks
> someone (anyone) might be being unfaily characterized.

> it's much easier to mis-interpret text discussions than
> vocal ones, 'cause rich content is missing.

Yes, it is indeed, and the responses are a good example of where
opinions depend on the name of who did the writing (Suz) :-(

I had no obligation to reply to Suz' pretty overwhelming and
unexpected diatribe to me, as my message was to Fred.

But more importantly, Suz addressed me personally on past copyright
and credit discussions about her pages.

However, you can do a search and won't find me writing a word about
this issue. I always kept out of those discussions.

I chose to voice my opinion this time, the first time, because Suz
incorrectly ties me to them and thus explains her freedom to make
hers any ideas I or anyone might have.

You may want to turn around your remark about being unfairly
characterized, because surely I bear no responsibility for all those
who have brought up the credit issue of Suz' pages :-)

Joske
--
http://members.home.nl/j.a.c.backer/