PainShop Pro Graphics - native foods and customs, was Re: Guilt-free chocolate

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native foods and customs, was Re: Guilt-free chocolate

Ms Joske

2005-11-15, 7:32 pm

tspillman wrote:

> I agree that speculaas are almost a necessity for Christmas.
> FWIW, I found a site with a number of recipes that LOOK fairly
> authentic to me. The also have kerstbrood and oliebollen.

Tom, speculaasjes belong to Sinterklaas and not to Christmas. They
are available throughout the late fall - winter season.

Oliebollen, in case you don't know, are strictly New Year's Eve,
while kerstbrood is indeed... for Christmas :-)

Joske
genuine Dutch product

RonaldV

2005-11-15, 7:32 pm

On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 21:20:58 +0100, "Ms Joske" <j.backer@home.nl>
wrote:

>
>tspillman wrote:
>
>
>Tom, speculaasjes belong to Sinterklaas and not to Christmas. They
>are available throughout the late fall - winter season.
>
>Oliebollen, in case you don't know, are strictly New Year's Eve,
>while kerstbrood is indeed... for Christmas :-)
>
>Joske
>genuine Dutch product

Drool!

You really are evil!

RonV
Tangling with the Python

tspillman

2005-11-15, 7:32 pm

Ms Joske wrote:
> tspillman wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Tom, speculaasjes belong to Sinterklaas and not to Christmas. They
> are available throughout the late fall - winter season.
>
> Oliebollen, in case you don't know, are strictly New Year's Eve,
> while kerstbrood is indeed... for Christmas :-)
>
> Joske
> genuine Dutch product
>

I remember well that Sinterklass (and Zwarte Piet!) are not as connected
to Christmas there as they are here in Texas. I was very imprecise in
my language, a bad habit of mine. I can remember my wife and I going
down to the fishing harbor in Scheveningen to see Sinterklaas and Piet
arrive, almost three weeks before Christmas, I think much of the town
was there, too!

All of the dishes I mentioned were part of the overall fall and winter
holiday season, to me. I remember getting oliebollen from large carts
in the city where you could get them and eat them while they were still
hot (much better than cold oliebollenm IMNSHO!), and it certainly wasn't
Chritmas, but it was in the holiday season.

I guess that you might mistake me for a Belgian with such careless
mistakes...

Tom
genuine American product...

Ms Joske

2005-11-16, 6:49 pm

tspillman wrote:
> Ms Joske wrote:
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> I remember well that Sinterklass (and Zwarte Piet!) are not as
> connected to Christmas there as they are here in Texas. I was
> very imprecise in my language, a bad habit of mine.

No problem at all. If I could, I'd send speculaasjes all around to
everyone here... in return for just one delicious cheesecake, which
is sorely missed here.

> I can
> remember my wife and I going down to the fishing harbor in
> Scheveningen to see Sinterklaas and Piet arrive, almost three
> weeks before Christmas, I think much of the town was there, too!

People still do that, I saw him in Scheveningen too once as a child.
Only these days, he arrives in a different place every year. And
commerce being what it is, he now arrives in early November.

> All of the dishes I mentioned were part of the overall fall and
> winter holiday season, to me. I remember getting oliebollen
> from large carts in the city where you could get them and eat
> them while they were still hot (much better than cold
> oliebollenm IMNSHO!), and it certainly wasn't Chritmas, but it
> was in the holiday season.

Oliebollen, like appelflappen, seem specifically invented to give us
heartburn :-) I can appreciate your good memories, the carts in the
cities with all the lights in early winter evenings are a pleasure
to see (and smell).

> I guess that you might mistake me for a Belgian with such
> careless mistakes...

Shhh... beware of lurking Belgians. They might stop exporting their

delicious bonbons to us :-)

> Tom
> genuine American product...

A star-spangled cheesecake :-)

Joske

Tracy Pori

2005-11-16, 10:28 pm

Ms Joske wrote:
> tspillman wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> No problem at all. If I could, I'd send speculaasjes all around to
> everyone here... in return for just one delicious cheesecake, which
> is sorely missed here.
>
>
>
>
> People still do that, I saw him in Scheveningen too once as a child.
> Only these days, he arrives in a different place every year. And
> commerce being what it is, he now arrives in early November.
>
>
>
>
> Oliebollen, like appelflappen, seem specifically invented to give us
> heartburn :-) I can appreciate your good memories, the carts in the
> cities with all the lights in early winter evenings are a pleasure
> to see (and smell).
>
>
>
>
> Shhh... beware of lurking Belgians. They might stop exporting their
>
> delicious bonbons to us :-)
>
>
>
>
> A star-spangled cheesecake :-)
>
> Joske
>
>
>
>
>
>
Deal, I make most awesome cheesecake but I have no idea what any of
those foods you mention are, poor lil ol back woods Oregon gal, from the
way people are raving, I would say it's a good trade. I can make
Aevilskivers though ;)

Joëlle

2005-11-17, 6:22 am

"Tracy Pori" <digitalartresources@charter.net> wrote in message
news:437bbe92_1@cnews...

> Deal, I make most awesome cheesecake but I have no idea what any of those
> foods you mention are, poor lil ol back woods Oregon gal, from the way
> people are raving, I would say it's a good trade. I can make Aevilskivers
> though ;)
>

Known as Poffertjes in Holland, very nice sprinkled with icing sugar and a
knob of butter on the side of the plate.
I wonder if they are still served like that...

:-)
Joëlle

SAGOTEB

2005-11-17, 6:22 am

"Joëlle" <makingmerry@inSussex.com> wrote in message news:437c4a27$1_2@cnews...
>
>
> "Tracy Pori" <digitalartresources@charter.net> wrote in message news:437bbe92_1@cnews...
>
>
>
> Known as Poffertjes in Holland, very nice sprinkled with icing sugar and a knob of butter on the side of the plate.
> I wonder if they are still served like that...

Yep! they do! One of my favorites (But I can name a thousand favorites,
when it comes to sweet :-))))
What about "gevulde koeken"? Are they known outside of Holland?
I'm going to plunder the cookiejar now!

>
> :-)
> Joëlle
>
>
>
>

tspillman

2005-11-17, 6:50 pm

Tracy Pori wrote:
>
> Ms Joske wrote:
>

Big <snip!>
[color=darkred]
> Deal, I make most awesome cheesecake but I have no idea what any of
> those foods you mention are, poor lil ol back woods Oregon gal, from the
> way people are raving, I would say it's a good trade. I can make
> Aevilskivers though ;)
>
No cheesecake, but here are a few Texas images. Everyone, including
me before I came to Texas, thinks Texas is covered with Prickly Pear.
We have some, usually in areas of poor soil. However, we also have
Salvias, which are native plants. This is a favorite of my wife who is
a gardener and a member of the Native Plant Society. The Texas flag is
on the house of our next door neighbor. He is a die-hard University of
Texas football fan (Note the Long horns over the door!).

These are nothing special. Just some trials I shot with a new camera a
Canon Digital Rebel XT) with only minimal processing in PSP (minor
cropping, resize, minor contrast adjustment (via curves), clarify,
sharpen) which took perhaps five minutes each.

Regards...

Tom

Joëlle

2005-11-17, 6:50 pm

"SAGOTEB" <sagoteb@chello.nl> wrote in message news:437c5fea$1_1@cnews...[color=darkred]
>
>
> "Joëlle" <makingmerry@inSussex.com> wrote in message
> news:437c4a27$1_2@cnews...
>
> Yep! they do! One of my favorites (But I can name a thousand favorites,
> when it comes to sweet :-))))
> What about "gevulde koeken"? Are they known outside of Holland?
> I'm going to plunder the cookiejar now!
>

I have not seen the Dutch version of Gevulde Koeken anywhere outside
Holland, but I am sure they're available somewhere. Mhhhmmm, yum.
:-)
Joëlle

Ms Joske

2005-11-17, 6:50 pm

tspillman wrote:

> No cheesecake, but here are a few Texas images. Everyone,
> including me before I came to Texas, thinks Texas is covered
> with Prickly Pear. We have some, usually in areas of poor soil.
> However, we also have Salvias, which are native plants. This is
> a favorite of my wife who is a gardener and a member of the
> Native Plant Society. The Texas flag is on the house of our
> next door neighbor. He is a die-hard University of Texas
> football fan (Note the Long horns over the door!).

> These are nothing special. Just some trials I shot with a new
> camera a Canon Digital Rebel XT) with only minimal processing in
> PSP (minor cropping, resize, minor contrast adjustment (via
> curves), clarify, sharpen) which took perhaps five minutes each.

Actually, the first things to come to the mind of this uninformed
Dutch person are:

Dallas
bulls horns (as over your neighbor's door)
ranch
oil
names like MsEllie or MsRose

I would not think of the cactii (?) and the salvia's at all. Nice to
see a view of your surroundings. I will make some pictures of
oliebollen- and whatnot stalls when it's dark and DRY here :-) We've
got a few pretty ones in the town center.

Joske

Ms Joske

2005-11-17, 6:50 pm

Tracy Pori wrote:
> Ms Joske wrote:
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> Deal, I make most awesome cheesecake but I have no idea what any
> of those foods you mention are, poor lil ol back woods Oregon
> gal, from the way people are raving, I would say it's a good
> trade. I can make Aevilskivers though ;)

I had to look up that Viking-sounding word, and found it was a
Danish treat. It looks delicious however whether it comes from
Denmark or Oregon :-)

Some of the best cheesecakes I ever tasted were indeed homemade in
the US. But Tracy, I'm positive your cheesecake would not survive
the transport and duration of it to Holland.

Joske

Barbara J Bradley

2005-11-17, 6:50 pm

"Tracy Pori" <digitalartresources@charter.net> wrote in message
news:437bbe92_1@cnews...
>
> Deal, I make most awesome cheesecake but I have no idea what any of
> those foods you mention are, poor lil ol back woods Oregon gal, from
> the way people are raving, I would say it's a good trade. I can
> make Aevilskivers though ;)
>

A bake-off, Tracy? I make wonderful cheesecake too.
Barb

SAGOTEB

2005-11-17, 6:50 pm

"Barbara J Bradley" <BarbBrad1@aol.com> wrote in message news:437cecf7_3@cnews...
>
>
> "Tracy Pori" <digitalartresources@charter.net> wrote in message news:437bbe92_1@cnews...
>
> A bake-off, Tracy? I make wonderful cheesecake too.
> Barb

YES! And be shure to send the caces over here, (I am a qualified
cheescace judge! :-)))
P.S. I'm also a judge for cookies and other sweet stuf, (In case of future contests)
>
>
>

tspillman

2005-11-17, 6:50 pm

Ms Joske wrote:
> tspillman wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Actually, the first things to come to the mind of this uninformed
> Dutch person are:
>
> Dallas
> bulls horns (as over your neighbor's door)
> ranch
> oil
> names like MsEllie or MsRose
>
> I would not think of the cactii (?) and the salvia's at all. Nice to
> see a view of your surroundings. I will make some pictures of
> oliebollen- and whatnot stalls when it's dark and DRY here :-) We've
> got a few pretty ones in the town center.
>
> Joske
>
>
When we were in Nederland, one of the most popular TV programs was
Dallas. All of our Duthch friends used to ask us about it while we were
there.

I'll look forward to seeing any Dutch images. We enjoyed our time there
thoroughly. My wife and I seriously considered retireing there instead
of Texas. However, my wife parents were getting along in years and she
wanted to be closer to them (our children loved coming to see us while
we lived in Scheveningen!), so we retired on this side of the Atlantic.

I'll bet others would enjoy seeing the carts and stalls, too. My wife
probably wouldn't enjoy seeing the Hollandse Nieuwe, next spring since
she never devloped a taste for them (I did!).

Thanks...

Tom

SAGOTEB

2005-11-17, 6:50 pm

"tspillman" <nospam@austin.rr.com> wrote in message news:437cefbd_1@cnews...
>
> Ms Joske wrote:
> When we were in Nederland, one of the most popular TV programs was Dallas. All of our Duthch friends used to ask us about it
> while we were there.
>
> I'll look forward to seeing any Dutch images. We enjoyed our time there thoroughly. My wife and I seriously considered retireing
> there instead of Texas. However, my wife parents were getting along in years and she wanted to be closer to them (our children
> loved coming to see us while we lived in Scheveningen!), so we retired on this side of the Atlantic.
>
> I'll bet others would enjoy seeing the carts and stalls, too. My wife probably wouldn't enjoy seeing the Hollandse Nieuwe, next
> spring since she never devloped a taste for them (I did!).

Met uitjes? ;-))
>
> Thanks...
>
> Tom
>

Linda Nieuwenstein

2005-11-17, 6:50 pm

"tspillman" wrote
> I remember well that Sinterklass (and Zwarte Piet!) are not as connected
> to Christmas there as they are here in Texas.
That would be St. Nicholas and Piet at the time you remember (Dec 6.) You
remember better than you think :-)

Take care,
Linda

Lori Davis

2005-11-17, 6:50 pm

"Barbara J Bradley" <BarbBrad1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:437cecf7_3@cnews...
> "Tracy Pori" <digitalartresources@charter.net> wrote in message
> news:437bbe92_1@cnews...
>
> A bake-off, Tracy? I make wonderful cheesecake too.
> Barb
>

I'd like to join Sagoteb and be a judge, too! -Lori :)

Linda Nieuwenstein

2005-11-17, 6:50 pm

"Joëlle" wrote
> Known as Poffertjes in Holland, very nice sprinkled with icing sugar and a
> knob of butter on the side of the plate.
> I wonder if they are still served like that...
>

I have a poffertjes frying pan that I bought in a Dutch street market I
loved them so much. Never had them with butter though, just the icing sugar.
I also bought irons of many shapes to make (forget the official name) batter
fry ups (it is a batter that the irons are dipped into before placing the
irons in the hot fat). They too are delicious sprinkled with icing sugar,
but have the added advantage of being able to be eaten later on as a cookie
sort of affair.

Take care,
Linda

tspillman

2005-11-17, 6:50 pm

SAGOTEB wrote:

>
>
> Met uitjes? ;-))
>
>

Ja, zeker!! ;> )

Ms Joske

2005-11-17, 6:50 pm

SAGOTEB wrote:
> "Barbara J Bradley" wrote
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> YES! And be shure to send the caces over here, (I am a qualified
> cheescace judge! :-)))

Yes, good plan. And 'over here' happens to be MY address, right?

Joske :-)

> P.S. I'm also a judge for cookies and other sweet stuf, (In case
> of future contests)

Ms Joske

2005-11-17, 6:50 pm

tspillman wrote:
> Ms Joske wrote:
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> When we were in Nederland, one of the most popular TV programs
> was Dallas. All of our Duthch friends used to ask us about it
> while we were there.

Heh. I only watched some near the end of the series, but it did form
part of my image of Texas.

> I'll look forward to seeing any Dutch images. We enjoyed our
> time there thoroughly. My wife and I seriously considered
> retireing there instead of Texas. However, my wife parents were
> getting along in years and she wanted to be closer to them (our
> children loved coming to see us while we lived in
> Scheveningen!), so we retired on this side of the Atlantic.

> I'll bet others would enjoy seeing the carts and stalls, too.
> My wife probably wouldn't enjoy seeing the Hollandse Nieuwe,
> next spring since she never devloped a taste for them (I did!).

Scheveningen is a special place (to me too), in spite of the
touristy part. I can imagine very well you'd have loved to live
there.

I promise to try and remember to think of you both when I have my
first Hollandse Nieuwe next year :-) When I was a child, I was a
'taster' of them (word?). Seriously. Fishermen in my family would
bring in the barrels and I had a taste, if I said they were good,
they were. Same at stalls. You are surely among the rare visitors
from abroad who appreciate them... and with onions too, I bet :-)

Joske

> Thanks...

Ms Joske

2005-11-17, 6:50 pm

Linda Nieuwenstein wrote:
> "tspillman" wrote

[color=darkred]
> That would be St. Nicholas and Piet at the time you remember
> (Dec 6.) You remember better than you think :-)

Sinterklaas, 5 december.

I always, like anyone from anywhere I presume, very much enjoy
reading how others perceive my country. But I must say I am
surprised at some of the utter nonsense being written with such
absolute certainty about local foods, places, and customs...
especially seeing there are at least two genuine natives present in
this group.

Joske

SAGOTEB

2005-11-17, 6:50 pm

"Ms Joske" <j.backer@home.nl> wrote in message news:437d0462_1@cnews...
>
> SAGOTEB wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Yes, good plan. And 'over here' happens to be MY address, right?

You are qualified for "haring met uitjes" as you told, but are you
officially qualified for cheescake? (After eating "Haring"? :-))))
>
> Joske :-)
>
>
>
>
>
>

Ms Joske

2005-11-17, 6:50 pm

SAGOTEB wrote:
> "Ms Joske" wrote
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> You are qualified for "haring met uitjes" as you told, but are
> you officially qualified for cheescake? (After eating "Haring"?
> :-))))

Yes sir, I believe I am... being the one who leaves clothes out of
her suitcase to make room for cheesecakes when flying back from
England :-)

Joske

SAGOTEB

2005-11-17, 6:50 pm

"Ms Joske" <j.backer@home.nl> wrote in message news:437d0464_1@cnews...
>
> Linda Nieuwenstein wrote:
>
>
>
> Sinterklaas, 5 december.

True, but not entirely.
Lotts of people cellebrate "sinterklaas" on 5 december,
but also a lott of people cellebrate it on 6 december (His birthday)
>
> I always, like anyone from anywhere I presume, very much enjoy
> reading how others perceive my country. But I must say I am
> surprised at some of the utter nonsense being written with such
> absolute certainty about local foods, places, and customs...
> especially seeing there are at least two genuine natives present in
> this group.
>
> Joske
>
>
>
>
>

Linda Nieuwenstein

2005-11-17, 6:50 pm

"Ms Joske" <j.backer@home.nl> wrote in message news:437d0464_1@cnews...
>
> Linda Nieuwenstein wrote:
>
>
>
> Sinterklaas, 5 december.
>
> I always, like anyone from anywhere I presume, very much enjoy
> reading how others perceive my country. But I must say I am
> surprised at some of the utter nonsense being written with such
> absolute certainty about local foods, places, and customs...
> especially seeing there are at least two genuine natives present in
> this group.
>
> Joske
>

Ah December 5th for St. Nicholas. Lots of Dutch Canadians still speak of him
and his assistant, but most of the relatives still in the Nederlands say
Sinter Klass has taken over with the commercialism of December 25th, much
like in North America.

It is a good thing that Dutch people (like peoples from any other nation)
all have different histories, experiences, family traditions over
generations, cultural and religious beliefs to pass down to their children.
Dull would not even begin to explain the horror experienced if all 26+
Million Dutch experience and translated Dutch life in exactly the same
manner. I find a lot of what has been said here to be exactly what my 'real
deal' Dutch relatives experience, while other points they cannot relate to
because it was not custom in their community.

Take care,
Linda

SAGOTEB

2005-11-17, 6:50 pm

"Ms Joske" <j.backer@home.nl> wrote in message news:437d0944$1_2@cnews...
>
> SAGOTEB wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yes sir, I believe I am... being the one who leaves clothes out of
> her suitcase to make room for cheesecakes when flying back from
> England :-)

That makes you a top member of the cheescake order. m(_ _)m
>
> Joske
>
>
>

Ms Joske

2005-11-17, 6:50 pm

SAGOTEB wrote:
> "Ms Joske" wrote
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> True, but not entirely.
> Lotts of people cellebrate "sinterklaas" on 5 december,
> but also a lott of people cellebrate it on 6 december (His
> birthday)

Some even celebrate it the weekend before or after :-)

See the song texts, and look the shops: Sinterklaas decorations up
till 5 December, Christmas stuff starting 6 December.

The point is that a lot of nonsense about our country is being
spouted right over our heads. Next thing you know, we'll dancing on
clogs while putting tulip bulbs into the hole in the dyke.
[color=darkred]

Joske

Joëlle

2005-11-17, 10:28 pm

"Linda Nieuwenstein" <buzzball@REMOVETHIS-allstream.net> wrote in message
news:437cfc2e$1_3@cnews...
>
>
> "Joëlle" wrote
>
> I have a poffertjes frying pan that I bought in a Dutch street market I
> loved them so much. Never had them with butter though, just the icing
> sugar. I also bought irons of many shapes to make (forget the official
> name) batter fry ups (it is a batter that the irons are dipped into before
> placing the irons in the hot fat). They too are delicious sprinkled with
> icing sugar, but have the added advantage of being able to be eaten later
> on as a cookie sort of affair.
>
> Take care,
> Linda
>
>
>

I used to have those, I think they were called Wafer Irons or something like
that. I used to make butterflies, which looked wonderful when you took them
out of the oil but then would turn black before your very eyes!

Gosh, it's just as well it's getting late here, otherwise I'd be delving in
my cookery books..!

:-)
Joëlle

RonaldV

2005-11-17, 10:28 pm

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On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 00:46:10 +0100, "Ms Joske" <j.backer@home.nl>
wrote:

>
>SAGOTEB wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>Some even celebrate it the weekend before or after :-)
>
>See the song texts, and look the shops: Sinterklaas decorations up
>till 5 December, Christmas stuff starting 6 December.
>
>The point is that a lot of nonsense about our country is being
>spouted right over our heads. Next thing you know, we'll dancing on
>clogs while putting tulip bulbs into the hole in the dyke.

Next, you'll tell us there are no windmills...

I was on a flight from Europe back to home, landing at Orlando, when I
overheard a small child asking his parents where the cowboys and
Indians were...

Ron

tspillman

2005-11-18, 6:34 pm

Ms Joske wrote:
> tspillman wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Scheveningen is a special place (to me too), in spite of the
> touristy part. I can imagine very well you'd have loved to live
> there.
>=20
> I promise to try and remember to think of you both when I have my
> first Hollandse Nieuwe next year :-) When I was a child, I was a
> 'taster' of them (word?). Seriously. Fishermen in my family would
> bring in the barrels and I had a taste, if I said they were good,
> they were. Same at stalls. You are surely among the rare visitors
> from abroad who appreciate them... and with onions too, I bet :-)
>=20
> Joske
>=20

I'll admit that the first look at Hollandse Nieuwe wasn't appealing to=20
me. I was raised in the Midwest o f the U. S. (St. Louis) far from the=20
sea in the 1930's and 1940's (I am 75) and at that time fresh seafood=20
was unheard of that far inland. We could get some fresh water fish, but=20
no fresh salt water fish. However, I have always been rather=20
adventuresome about food. I had never had Mexican food until I went to=20
California when I joined the Navy. It, too, was unheard of in St. Louis=20
at that time, as was Pizza (I had my first one around 1953).!

There are few things I won't at least try. I even enjoy haggis! Of=20
course, cooking is also a hobby of mine. I have about eight or nine=20
hundred cookbooks in at least five languages. Some are duplicates. For=20
example I have three copies of Paul Bocuse's "La Cuisine du March=E9", tw=
o=20
in French (one autographed!) and one in English under a different title.=20
I plan on buying another this weekend, the new English translation of=20
an Italian book I bought in Florence "Il Cucchiaio DArgento" (The Silver=20
Teaspoon"). My Italian copy has 1189 pages and covers almost all=20
aspects of Italian food, which is far, far more than Pizza and Pasta,=20
which only take up a few pages in the book.

Sorry. I got carried away about one of my favorite subjects.

My wife and I went on a day-long sailing excursion on a large,=20
two-masted schooner from the harbor in Scheveningen (I no longer=20
remember the name of vessel, probably a sign of advanced age!). It was=20
a beautiful day, with the sun shining and the wind blowing, so the North=20
Sea was a little lumpy. My wife was doing very well until they brought=20
out a huge platter of Hollandse Nieuwe for lunch, met uitjes. That was=20
the trigger for my wife and her sea sickness took over. She was sea=20
sick for the rest of the trip.

She will not LOOK at one, since!

We obviously can't get them here, but we can occasionally find good=20
kippers (my wife won;t eat those, either)...

Regards...

Tom

tspillman

2005-11-18, 6:34 pm

RonaldV wrote:
>
> Next, you'll tell us there are no windmills...
>
> I was on a flight from Europe back to home, landing at Orlando, when I
> overheard a small child asking his parents where the cowboys and
> Indians were...
>
> Ron
>

There were not as many windmills as I expected to see. There are still
a number of individual ones scattered around the country, but not any
where near many. We only saw two or three on our trip from Schiphol to
Den Haag upon our arrival and we were very disappointed. However, there
is one place where most of the pictures are taken: Kinderdijk. At
least, this was the case when we were last there. They had about
seventeen, if I remember correctly. I don't remember seeing ANY in Den
Haag, but there was a large one in Leiden, not far from the train
station, again, if I remember correctly.

You should hear what they say about Texas! Of course, Texas is large
enough and varied enough that someplace in Texas whatever they say is
probably true! After our arrival I was taking a class in the Dutch
language and our teacher asked us to write a paper in Dutch about where
we came from. Most were surprised to hear that Texas is as big as
France and all of the Benelux, while the total population is very close
to that of Nederland.

Regards...

Tom

Spandex Rutabaga

2005-11-18, 6:34 pm

SAGOTEB wrote:
>
> "Ms Joske" <j.backer@home.nl> wrote in message

>
> Are whe not suppose to do that? I just did bought new clogs :-)

Until recently this would have been technically illegal since the
European Union considered clogs unsafe. However clogs have now
passed all the EU tests and are deemed safety shoes. It's funny
how the Brussels bureaucrats seemed unaware of some 600 years or
so of history. Clog dancing was once popular in England though the
clogs were made a little differently than the Dutch ones, having
leather uppers: http://tinyurl.com/8amxh. Anyway, the Dutch
themselves sometimes build the picture of Holland that people
perceive. Take for example http://www.dutchwindmill.com/, based
in Arnhem, which sells traditional Dutch ashtrays and refrigerator
magnets along with clogs and windmills of course :-)

Joëlle

2005-11-18, 6:34 pm

"Spandex Rutabaga" <SpRu@agabatur.xednaps> wrote in message
news:437E10CE.D265470A@agabatur.xednaps...
>
> SAGOTEB wrote:
>
>
> Until recently this would have been technically illegal since the
> European Union considered clogs unsafe. However clogs have now
> passed all the EU tests and are deemed safety shoes. It's funny
> how the Brussels bureaucrats seemed unaware of some 600 years or
> so of history. Clog dancing was once popular in England though the
> clogs were made a little differently than the Dutch ones, having
> leather uppers: http://tinyurl.com/8amxh. Anyway, the Dutch
> themselves sometimes build the picture of Holland that people
> perceive. Take for example http://www.dutchwindmill.com/, based
> in Arnhem, which sells traditional Dutch ashtrays and refrigerator
> magnets along with clogs and windmills of course :-)
>

:-)))

Ms Joske

2005-11-18, 6:34 pm

Spandex Rutabaga wrote:

> Anyway, the
> Dutch themselves sometimes build the picture of Holland that
> people perceive. Take for example http://www.dutchwindmill.com/,
> based in Arnhem, which sells traditional Dutch ashtrays and
> refrigerator magnets along with clogs and windmills of course :-)

It doesn't sell off Danish treats as Dutch poffertjes, state
Sinterklaas derives from Santa Claus, or say our chocolate sprinkle
is of inferior quality.

Disinformation like that is only posted here as "fact" by two ladies
abroad. As far as I know, correcting hoghwash doesn't automatically
mean one has to have one's house full of ashtrays with windmills :-)

Joske

tspillman

2005-11-18, 6:34 pm

Ms Joske wrote:
>
> And I'll say this about pizza's: of all the places I tasted them in,
> those (slices) in the US were the yummiest.
>

It seems to me that the Italians have learned from the Chinese and the
Indians. Pizza is modified to fit the tastes of where it is being sold.
Chinese food is seldom found in Nederland without Indonesian food,
also. I remember seeing only a few that just sold Chinese.

I also love Pizza. It is one of our favorite foods, and if too much
time goes by my wife will say: "Let's have Pizza tonight!" Pizza in
Italy is quite different from Pizza in the U.S. One of my favorite
bakers, Peter Reinhart has written an excellent book on Pizza;
"American Pie: My Search for the Perfect Pizza". In it, he went to a
number of cities in Italy to look at pizza recipes and then did the same
on his return to the U.S. Italian Pizza and U.S. Pizza are quite
different, but both are good. We like both. Peter has written a number
of good books. His blog is at:

http://peterreinhart.typepad.com/

>
> I saw haring with onions this late afternoon
> while passing the market, but unfortunately the light was neither
> here nor there for decent photos. And to my surprise, the antique
> poffertjeskraam has been taken down while the oliebollenkraam isn't
> put up yet. My own little shopping mall did suddenly spring an
> oliebollenkraam, but not a pretty one :-)
>
> Joske
>

My that brings back memories! That is one of the photos that fits in an
important category. There are a number of pictures that can be
categorized as "Art" and there are a number of others are, too me,
almost equally valuable: those that help bring back good memories.

This picture is one of the latter class.

Thanks for sharing it...

Regards...

Tom

Linda Nieuwenstein

2005-11-18, 6:34 pm

"Joëlle" wrote
>
> I used to have those, I think they were called Wafer Irons or something
> like that. I used to make butterflies, which looked wonderful when you
> took them out of the oil but then would turn black before your very eyes!
>

That's it! Mine never turned black though, ewe. I often saved them for later
munching as a snack. What kind of oil were you using? Maybe the oil makes a
difference in more than just taste :0D

Take care,
Linda

Linda Nieuwenstein

2005-11-18, 6:34 pm

"RonaldV" wrote
> I was on a flight from Europe back to home, landing at Orlando, when I
> overheard a small child asking his parents where the cowboys and
> Indians were...
>

Did anyone mention the White House as an answer? hehehe, j/k!

Take care,
Linda

SAGOTEB

2005-11-18, 6:34 pm

"Linda Nieuwenstein" <buzzball@REMOVETHIS-allstream.net> wrote in message news:437e557e$1_3@cnews...
>
>
> "Joëlle" wrote
>
> That's it! Mine never turned black though, ewe. I often saved them for later munching as a snack. What kind of oil were you using?

For the real Dutch Poffertjes, you have to use butter, NO margarine or oil !

>Maybe the oil makes a difference in more than just taste :0D
>
> Take care,
> Linda
>
>

Linda Nieuwenstein

2005-11-18, 6:34 pm

"Ms Joske" <j.backer@home.nl> wrote in message news:437e20cf$1_1@cnews...
>
> Spandex Rutabaga wrote:
>
>
> It doesn't sell off Danish treats as Dutch poffertjes, state
> Sinterklaas derives from Santa Claus, or say our chocolate sprinkle
> is of inferior quality.
>
> Disinformation like that is only posted here as "fact" by two ladies
> abroad. As far as I know, correcting hoghwash doesn't automatically
> mean one has to have one's house full of ashtrays with windmills :-)
>
> Joske
>

The brand of Dutch hagelsag I've been eating since I was a youth has gone to
pot, and is indeed made of carob today, unlike in the past. Get over
yourself I have.

Take care,
Linda

Linda Nieuwenstein

2005-11-18, 6:34 pm

"SAGOTEB" <sagoteb@chello.nl> wrote in message news:437e5837$1_2@cnews...
>
>
> "Linda Nieuwenstein" <buzzball@REMOVETHIS-allstream.net> wrote in message
> news:437e557e$1_3@cnews...
>
> For the real Dutch Poffertjes, you have to use butter, NO margarine or oil
> !
>

Yes, with the Poffertjes iron that's what I used. We are however talking
about wafer irons. The iron (with attachement on the end that can be any
number of shapes) is dipped into the batter so that it coats the attachment
part of the iron. You than place the batter coated attachment in the hot
fat. It too is a real Dutch food :0) Errr at least my Dutch family have been
eating it for generations.

Take care,
Linda

Joëlle

2005-11-18, 6:34 pm

"Linda Nieuwenstein" <buzzball@REMOVETHIS-allstream.net> wrote in message
news:437e557e$1_3@cnews...
>
>
> "Joëlle" wrote
>
> That's it! Mine never turned black though, ewe. I often saved them for
> later munching as a snack. What kind of oil were you using? Maybe the oil
> makes a difference in more than just taste :0D
>
> Take care,
> Linda
>
>

Most probably sunflower oil, I did have some success, but it wasn't my
biggest achievement!
:-)
Joëlle

Joëlle

2005-11-18, 6:34 pm

"Linda Nieuwenstein" <buzzball@REMOVETHIS-allstream.net> wrote in message
news:437e557e$1_3@cnews...
>
>
> "Joëlle" wrote
>
> That's it! Mine never turned black though, ewe. I often saved them for
> later munching as a snack. What kind of oil were you using? Maybe the oil
> makes a difference in more than just taste :0D
>
> Take care,
> Linda
>
>

Googled a bit: they're Rosette Irons according to this website

http://fantes.com/rosettes.htm#sets

what a lot of different shapes!

:-)
Joëlle

Linda Nieuwenstein

2005-11-18, 10:36 pm

"Joëlle"
>
> Most probably sunflower oil, I did have some success, but it wasn't my
> biggest achievement!
> :-)
> Joëlle

You know what? I don't think I'm thinking of wafer iron. I just looked it up
on the net and that is nothing like the iron I'm talking about.

http://www.wag-society.org/eye_candy.php?id=25 (that whole site seems
dedicated to wafers LOL). Who would have guessed they were that familiar.
I'm still looking for the ones I'm describing, but I don't know what to
search for with no official name.

Take care,
Linda

Linda Nieuwenstein

2005-11-18, 10:36 pm

"Joëlle" wrote
> Googled a bit: they're Rosette Irons according to this website
>
> http://fantes.com/rosettes.htm#sets
>
> what a lot of different shapes!
>

These are definitely it! I have more traditional shapes (really like the
hummingbird one on that page and will likely buy a few). I'm glad you found
it as I was having no luck getting beyond different types of wafer irons and
fire pokers hahaha. The recipes on that page appear to be the traditional
ones. A tasty offshoot from tradition is to use yogart and/or sour cream in
the batter. Yummier.

Off to inspect that hummingbird closer.

Take care,
Linda

Joëlle

2005-11-18, 10:36 pm

"Linda Nieuwenstein" <buzzball@REMOVETHIS-allstream.net> wrote in message
news:437e614d$1_3@cnews...
>
>
> "Joëlle" wrote
>
> These are definitely it! I have more traditional shapes (really like the
> hummingbird one on that page and will likely buy a few). I'm glad you
> found it as I was having no luck getting beyond different types of wafer
> irons and fire pokers hahaha. The recipes on that page appear to be the
> traditional ones. A tasty offshoot from tradition is to use yogart and/or
> sour cream in the batter. Yummier.
>
> Off to inspect that hummingbird closer.
>
> Take care,
> Linda
>
>
>
>

Good hunting, bedtime for moi.
:-)
Joëlle

Barbara J Bradley

2005-11-19, 3:38 am

"Joëlle" <makingmerry@inSussex.com> wrote in message
news:437e5bf9_2@cnews...
>
>
> "Linda Nieuwenstein" <buzzball@REMOVETHIS-allstream.net> wrote in
> message news:437e557e$1_3@cnews...
>
> Googled a bit: they're Rosette Irons according to this website
>
> http://fantes.com/rosettes.htm#sets
>
> what a lot of different shapes!
>
> :-)
> Joëlle

Well, of course they are rosette irons . . . I have one. :)
Barb

Joëlle

2005-11-19, 6:18 am

"Barbara J Bradley" <BarbBrad1@aol.com> wrote in message
news:437ebaf4$1_1@cnews...
>
>
> "Joëlle" <makingmerry@inSussex.com> wrote in message
> news:437e5bf9_2@cnews...
>
>
> Well, of course they are rosette irons . . . I have one. :)
> Barb
>
>
>
Which shapes do you use most?
:-)
Joëlle

Ms Joske

2005-11-20, 7:13 pm

Linda Nieuwenstein wrote:
> "Ms Joske" wrote
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> The brand of Dutch hagelsag I've been eating since I was a youth
> has gone to pot, and is indeed made of carob today, unlike in
> the past. Get over yourself I have.

You seem to see this as personal?

I don't. When A writes

"I miss milk chocolate Hagelslag most, can't get that anywhere
near here :-("

and B tells them

"If it is any consequence the chocolate hagelslag is nothing like it
was 20 years ago (real Dutch chocolate)."

That is plain disinformation.

"The" Dutch chocolate hagelslag is just fine:
http://www.hagelslag.com/

Joske

Linda Nieuwenstein

2005-11-20, 7:13 pm

"Ms Joske" <j.backer@home.nl> wrote in message news:438067af_1@cnews...
>
> You seem to see this as personal?
>
> I don't. When A writes
>
> "I miss milk chocolate Hagelslag most, can't get that anywhere
> near here :-("
>
> and B tells them
>
> "If it is any consequence the chocolate hagelslag is nothing like it
> was 20 years ago (real Dutch chocolate)."
>
> That is plain disinformation.
>
> "The" Dutch chocolate hagelslag is just fine:
> http://www.hagelslag.com/
>
> Joske
>

No Joske, disinformation is what results from your selective clipping out of
a key point. You're good at that I've noticed over time. You must have an
awfully inflated opinion of yourself to think that nobody else would notice.
I wrote:

"If it is any consequence the chocolate hagelslag is nothing like it was 20
years ago (real Dutch chocolate). It is fake chocolate (carob) now, same
brand name as always."

Its called a fact. The brand I buy is now made from carob. Get over
yourself.

Take care,
Linda

tspillman

2005-11-20, 7:13 pm

Ms Joske wrote:
>
>
> Lovely. I can't describe in the right words what I find nice about
> American ones... they're 'softer', sludgier, and tend to have
> thinner bottoms. We have an American Pizza store in this city but
> apart from selling them in slices (unusual here), I can't find the
> similarity.
>

Most American Pizza is certainly unlike Italian Pizza. However, there
are a number of places in the U. S. where you can find some. That was
discussed at length in the book "American Pie" that I mentioned.

I'll never forget when our daughter's returned from their first trip to
Italy. They told us "The Italian Pasta is really good, but they haven't
a clue about how to make Pizza!". My wife and I have determined that
the best tasting Pizza is the one like the one you were introduced to
initially. Here there are many, many regional variations...

>
>
>
>
>
> I will see what I can find for you to stimulate those good memories
> :-) This one is just an unattractive stall, I'm looking for the real
> things to come back (see attached), preferably with lights. But I
> will post them in the photography group, I do feel somewhat
> 'naughty' for being this off-topic in the graphics group.
>

I had trouble finding the stall initially. I downloaded it, opened it
in PSP and zoomed in and then realized I was looking at the BACK of the
oliebollenkraam. I'll admit I have no memories of people play
volleyball in the centrum? May ask where this picture was taken. It
looks to me like it might be in many places. One sign brought back
immediate memories, though. ABN was our bank (they hadn't merged with
Amro yet). ABN treated us very well while we were in Nederland.

>
>
>
>
>
> Have a nice Sunday,

Zelfde!

> it is cold enough here to eat... erwtensoep! ;-)
>
> Joske
>

Smakelijk eten!!

It will be about 24 degrees celcius here today, and I have no idea what
I'll fix tonight.

Enjoy...

Tom

>
>
>
>

Ms Joske

2005-11-20, 7:13 pm

tspillman wrote:
> Ms Joske wrote:

> Most American Pizza is certainly unlike Italian Pizza. However,
> there are a number of places in the U. S. where you can find
> some. That was discussed at length in the book "American Pie"
> that I mentioned.

> I'll never forget when our daughter's returned from their first
> trip to Italy. They told us "The Italian Pasta is really good,
> but they haven't a clue about how to make Pizza!". My wife and
> I have determined that the best tasting Pizza is the one like
> the one you were introduced to initially. Here there are many,
> many regional variations...

That is probably true, except I think I had my first ever pizza in
either Belgium or France :-)

> I had trouble finding the stall initially. I downloaded it,
> opened it in PSP and zoomed in and then realized I was looking
> at the BACK of the oliebollenkraam. I'll admit I have no
> memories of people play volleyball in the centrum? May ask
> where this picture was taken. It looks to me like it might be
> in many places. One sign brought back immediate memories,
> though. ABN was our bank (they hadn't merged with Amro yet).
> ABN treated us very well while we were in Nederland.

These images are of/from Groningen. But what I'm looking for are old
ones (long ago) from the west of the country - they'll have to be
scanned.

It's not the back of the kraam, the kraam (well, both) was closed
for the day. The volleyball event was just that, a one-time thing.

I am glad to hear ABN didn't rob you of your money (just kidding).

[color=darkred]
> Smakelijk eten!!

Thank you. But, I just sinned (as we say here) at 5.30pm and had a
huge cup of soft icecream and a kroket. Now I don't know what I'll
still want for dinner.

> It will be about 24 degrees celcius here today, and I have no
> idea what I'll fix tonight.

That temperature is lovely. You see? That's one thing one definitely
doesn't get in Holland in November :-)

Joske

Spandex Rutabaga

2005-11-20, 7:13 pm

Ms Joske wrote:

> I can't describe in the right words what I find nice about
> American ones... they're 'softer', sludgier, and tend to have
> thinner bottoms.

Thin bottoms is not something I automatically associate with
America :-) But coming back to pizza, you probably haven't had the
Chicago-style variety.

Spandex Rutabaga

2005-11-20, 7:13 pm

Ms Joske wrote:
[color=darkred]

As far as I can tell, hagelslag means "chocolate sprinkles" and some
people claim they are made of chocolate http://tinyurl.com/cz8gf. I
can't pretend the same enthusiasm for these items as others have. A
long time ago I was at a camp in Holland with other (then) young
people. For breakfast we had one slice of "wonderbread" with colored
sprinkles of the kind you put on ice cream in the United States,
glued to the bread with a thin layer of tasteless fat. For dinner we
had a slice of "wonderbread" again, this time with brown sprinkles,
presumably hagelslag. Only at lunch did we have any real food of some
kind. I was perpetually hungry and to this day these sprinkles,
wherever I see them, remind me of what it is to be hungry :-) My
memory of the hunger does not depend on whether hagelslag is
constructed from chocolate or carob or brown concrete :-) All I know
is that it is not adequate food for someone expending several thousand
calories a day. Still it is not for me to complain about Dutch food.
After all, I did come to the country willingly and I have been back
since then. However, I have never again eaten any kind of sprinkles
since that first visit :-)

willshak

2005-11-20, 7:13 pm

On 11/20/2005 3:41 PM US(ET), Spandex Rutabaga took fingers to keyboard,
and typed the following:
> Ms Joske wrote:
>
>
>
> As far as I can tell, hagelslag means "chocolate sprinkles" and some
> people claim they are made of chocolate http://tinyurl.com/cz8gf. I
> can't pretend the same enthusiasm for these items as others have. A
> long time ago I was at a camp in Holland with other (then) young
> people. For breakfast we had one slice of "wonderbread" with colored
> sprinkles of the kind you put on ice cream in the United States,
> glued to the bread with a thin layer of tasteless fat. For dinner we
> had a slice of "wonderbread" again, this time with brown sprinkles,
> presumably hagelslag. Only at lunch did we have any real food of some
> kind. I was perpetually hungry and to this day these sprinkles,
> wherever I see them, remind me of what it is to be hungry :-) My
> memory of the hunger does not depend on whether hagelslag is
> constructed from chocolate or carob or brown concrete :-) All I know
> is that it is not adequate food for someone expending several thousand
> calories a day. Still it is not for me to complain about Dutch food.
> After all, I did come to the country willingly and I have been back
> since then. However, I have never again eaten any kind of sprinkles
> since that first visit :-)
>
>
Ah, Wonder bread. It's a wonder how they can call it bread.

--
Bill

Ms Joske

2005-11-20, 7:13 pm

Spandex Rutabaga wrote:
> Ms Joske wrote:

[color=darkred]
> Thin bottoms is not something I automatically associate with
> America :-) But coming back to pizza, you probably haven't had
> the Chicago-style variety.

Here's what we've got (though you probably can't decipher the online
order menu):

http://www.newyorkpizza.nl/vestigingen/slice.html

Californian Veggie (can't be you then), Boston Fishy, Mexican
Hot&Spicy. Nothing from Chicago.

So what are you saying, are they particularly delicious, or
disgusting?

Joske

Ms Joske

2005-11-20, 7:13 pm

Spandex Rutabaga wrote:
> Ms Joske wrote:

[color=darkred]
> As far as I can tell, hagelslag means "chocolate sprinkles" and
> some people claim they are made of chocolate
> http://tinyurl.com/cz8gf.

And they're correct. A main brand like that still is.

> I can't pretend the same enthusiasm
> for these items as others have. A long time ago I was at a camp
> in Holland with other (then) young people. For breakfast we had
> one slice of "wonderbread" with colored sprinkles of the kind
> you put on ice cream in the United States, glued to the bread
> with a thin layer of tasteless fat. For dinner we had a slice of
> "wonderbread" again, this time with brown sprinkles, presumably
> hagelslag. Only at lunch did we have any real food of some kind.
> I was perpetually hungry and to this day these sprinkles,
> wherever I see them, remind me of what it is to be hungry :-)

That sounds disgusting. My bread experience as a youngster in the US
was better: I discovered the peanut butter and jelly sandwich.

> My memory of the hunger does not depend on whether
> hagelslag is constructed from chocolate or carob or
> brown concrete :-) All I know is that it is not adequate food
> for someone expending several thousand calories a day.

There are millions of chocolate cravers who would disagree with you
for more reasons than just the calories :-)

> Still it is not for me to
> complain about Dutch food. After all, I did come to the country
> willingly and I have been back since then. However, I have never
> again eaten any kind of sprinkles since that first visit :-)

Maybe you are more of a hearty tooth (as opposed to sweet tooth)
like I am anyway.

Joske

SAGOTEB

2005-11-20, 7:13 pm

"willshak" <willshak@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message news:4380de54$1_2@cnews...
>
> On 11/20/2005 3:41 PM US(ET), Spandex Rutabaga took fingers to keyboard, and typed the following:
> Ah, Wonder bread. It's a wonder how they can call it bread.

Once you've ate it, you will remember it the rest of your life.
If that is'nt a wonder! :-))
Also you can do funny stuff with it;
http://tinyurl.com/ccl8g
>
> --
> Bill
>

Joëlle

2005-11-20, 7:13 pm

"SAGOTEB" <sagoteb@chello.nl> wrote in message news:4380ea17_3@cnews...[color=darkred]
>
>
> "willshak" <willshak@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message
> news:4380de54$1_2@cnews...
>
> Once you've ate it, you will remember it the rest of your life.
> If that is'nt a wonder! :-))
> Also you can do funny stuff with it;
> http://tinyurl.com/ccl8g

No beschuit?
Has it all been exported to the UK?
:-)
Joëlle

Spandex Rutabaga

2005-11-20, 7:13 pm

Ms Joske wrote:

> Californian Veggie (can't be you then),

It could be. They have rutabagas in California.

> Boston Fishy, Mexican
> Hot&Spicy. Nothing from Chicago.
>
> So what are you saying, are they particularly delicious, or
> disgusting?

None of the above. Chicago is the home of deep dish pizza, which
can't be found in Italy but is much thicker than "thinner bottoms"
you were talking about. More about the deep dish pizza here:
http://members.cox.net/jjschnebel/ddishpiz.html.

To my mind the Italian pizza has a much tastier and more yeasty
dough than the American one. It is also much more sparse in terms
of toppings than the American one. This can be good or bad depending
on whether you want to savor the taste of individual ingredients
or if you want to stuff yourself with ingredients where none is
individually of exceptionally fine taste but the pizza makes an
entire meal. (The tasty dough is particularly important when there
are few ingredients as in the Italian pizza.) The brick oven and
the wood smoke also add a little something to the taste of Italian
pizza. Fortunately there are some places in the US that create
authentic Italian pizza as a change from the ubiquitous American
one. It is also good to have friends who have a brick pizza oven
in their kitchen :-)

RonaldV

2005-11-21, 7:01 pm

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 17:12:10 -0600, Spandex Rutabaga
<SpRu@agabatur.xednaps> wrote:

>None of the above. Chicago is the home of deep dish pizza, which
>can't be found in Italy but is much thicker than "thinner bottoms"
>you were talking about. More about the deep dish pizza here:
>http://members.cox.net/jjschnebel/ddishpiz.html.
>
>To my mind the Italian pizza has a much tastier and more yeasty
>dough than the American one. It is also much more sparse in terms
>of toppings than the American one. This can be good or bad depending
>on whether you want to savor the taste of individual ingredients
>or if you want to stuff yourself with ingredients where none is
>individually of exceptionally fine taste but the pizza makes an
>entire meal. (The tasty dough is particularly important when there
>are few ingredients as in the Italian pizza.) The brick oven and
>the wood smoke also add a little something to the taste of Italian
>pizza. Fortunately there are some places in the US that create
>authentic Italian pizza as a change from the ubiquitous American
>one. It is also good to have friends who have a brick pizza oven
>in their kitchen :-)

American pizza? Surely you jest.

As if all American pizza were made to the same exact standards!

Come here and I'll take you to Carraba's Italian/Texan Grill, which
not only still uses brick ovens, but also wood fired with a delightful
smoky flavor.

Then, we'll go to Tony's, an independent restaurant owner, in spite of
the common name. Rotary brick oven, but the dough is still yeast
raised, with excellent toppings. Including anchovies, if you want
them. He can also make them into Strombolli. All hand tossed.

Next are the Chain places, where you can often get cardboard disks.

Papa Johns, etc.

Then, we'll go slumming at Pizza Hut. 'Nuff said?

Merritt Island is a fairly small place, but I'd be willing to bet that
I can get at least 20 different levels of pizza here. (yes, including
New York and Chicago styles.)

RonV
Tangling with the Python

RonaldV

2005-11-21, 7:01 pm

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 19:08:54 -0400, "Linda Nieuwenstein"
<buzzball@REMOVETHIS-allstream.net> wrote:

>
>
>"RonaldV" wrote
>
>Did anyone mention the White House as an answer? hehehe, j/k!
>
>Take care,
>Linda
>
>

Well, I didn't want to be the one to spoil his preconceived ideas of
what the US looks like. I did recommend that his parents take him to
Fort Liberty, a cowboy/indian dinner theater for the tourists. You
know, dinner and a show, featuring riding, roping, bow and arrow, etc.

Orlando has more of those than you can shake a stick at. Just off the
top of my head, there's the Pirate Show, Caruso's (singing
waiters/waitresses), Medieval Times, Arabian Nights, Dolly Partons
(Civil War style), King Henry's Feast, and one production type dinner
theater which does regular plays. (Nun Sense, Man of La Mancha,
Fiddler on the Roof, etc.)

It's amazing to me that many that visit the US expect us to look like
the Hollywood version, which is producing it's own mythology.

RonV
Tangling with the Python

SAGOTEB

2005-11-21, 7:01 pm

"RonaldV" <RonVick@NoSpam.me> wrote in message news:t5j3o1tquvtb9o6crknedfa2qv11u961je@4ax.com...
>
> On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 19:08:54 -0400, "Linda Nieuwenstein"
> <buzzball@REMOVETHIS-allstream.net> wrote:
>
>
> Well, I didn't want to be the one to spoil his preconceived ideas of
> what the US looks like. I did recommend that his parents take him to
> Fort Liberty, a cowboy/indian dinner theater for the tourists. You
> know, dinner and a show, featuring riding, roping, bow and arrow, etc.
>
> Orlando has more of those than you can shake a stick at. Just off the
> top of my head, there's the Pirate Show, Caruso's (singing
> waiters/waitresses), Medieval Times, Arabian Nights, Dolly Partons
> (Civil War style), King Henry's Feast, and one production type dinner
> theater which does regular plays. (Nun Sense, Man of La Mancha,
> Fiddler on the Roof, etc.)
>
> It's amazing to me that many that visit the US expect us to look like
> the Hollywood version, which is producing it's own mythology.

Pirates, (European), Caruso, (Italian), Medieval times, (European),
King Henry, (English), Man of La Mancha, (Spanish),
Arabian Nights, (Arabic), Fiddler on the Roof, (Jewish)
Witch one of these will give me the true U.S.A perspective ? ;-)

>
>
> RonV
> Tangling with the Python
>

Linda Nieuwenstein

2005-11-21, 7:01 pm

"Ms Joske" wrote
> More personal disses over objective facts, what a shame.
>

You objective? Feeling funny today I see.

The brands of hagelslag I've bought for years is now inferior. Get over
yourself.

Take care,
Linda

P. Caldwell

2005-11-21, 7:01 pm

SAGOTEB wrote:

> Pirates, (European), Caruso, (Italian), Medieval times, (European),
> King Henry, (English), Man of La Mancha, (Spanish),
> Arabian Nights, (Arabic), Fiddler on the Roof, (Jewish)
> Witch one of these will give me the true U.S.A perspective ? ;-)

Wal-Mart.

-

SAGOTEB

2005-11-21, 7:01 pm

"P. Caldwell" <campratty@nomicecomcast.net> wrote in message news:4381dfb7$1_2@cnews...
>
> SAGOTEB wrote:
>
>
> Wal-Mart.

:-))))

>
> -
>

Linda Nieuwenstein

2005-11-21, 7:01 pm

"RonaldV" wrote
> Well, I didn't want to be the one to spoil his preconceived ideas of
> what the US looks like. I did recommend that his parents take him to
> Fort Liberty, a cowboy/indian dinner theater for the tourists. You
> know, dinner and a show, featuring riding, roping, bow and arrow, etc.
>
> Orlando has more of those than you can shake a stick at. Just off the
> top of my head, there's the Pirate Show, Caruso's (singing
> waiters/waitresses), Medieval Times, Arabian Nights, Dolly Partons
> (Civil War style), King Henry's Feast, and one production type dinner
> theater which does regular plays. (Nun Sense, Man of La Mancha,
> Fiddler on the Roof, etc.)
>
> It's amazing to me that many that visit the US expect us to look like
> the Hollywood version, which is producing it's own mythology.
>

Yes Hollywood sure has imbedded its fair share of 'stereotypes' upon the
world about America hasn't it? Still though, putting all the commercial
driven fantasy aside, you all (Americans) have a vast amount of different
things to see that have real, and significant historical value. I think a
lot of the things show how immigration over the centuries has contributed to
the making America today. A person would have to travel a lifetime to see
everything there is to see.

Take care,
Linda

Linda Nieuwenstein

2005-11-21, 7:01 pm

"SAGOTEB" wrote
> Pirates, (European), Caruso, (Italian), Medieval times, (European),
> King Henry, (English), Man of La Mancha, (Spanish),
> Arabian Nights, (Arabic), Fiddler on the Roof, (Jewish)
> Witch one of these will give me the true U.S.A perspective ? ;-)
>

All of the above and then some more not mentioned above. America is
immigration of all sorts, and all those sorts have equally contributed to
the continuous building of the USA, for better or for worse.

Take care,
Linda

RonaldV

2005-11-21, 7:01 pm

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:41:41 +0100, "SAGOTEB" <sagoteb@chello.nl>
wrote:

>Pirates, (European), Caruso, (Italian), Medieval times, (European),
>King Henry, (English), Man of La Mancha, (Spanish),
>Arabian Nights, (Arabic), Fiddler on the Roof, (Jewish)
>Witch one of these will give me the true U.S.A perspective ? ;-)

Pirates are European? I've heard of pirates from the Barbarry Coast,
the South China Sea, the Caribbean, Africa, even South America.
Heck, some were even home grown here in the US, with an indeterminate
ancestry.

Ever read 'Treasure Island'? The pirates described in that book were
actually the ones that lived just east of the US city of Savannah.

The true USA perspective? I'm not even sure one exists. We're so
diverse, that if you find it anywhere on earth, it's likely to be
here, too.

We've had waves of immigrants from every country on earth. Some
willing, some not (consider the Scotch brought here as slaves.)

RonV
Tangling with the Python

RonaldV

2005-11-21, 7:01 pm

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 12:28:11 -0400, "Linda Nieuwenstein"
<buzzball@REMOVETHIS-allstream.net> wrote:

>
>"RonaldV" wrote
>
>Yes Hollywood sure has imbedded its fair share of 'stereotypes' upon the
>world about America hasn't it? Still though, putting all the commercial
>driven fantasy aside, you all (Americans) have a vast amount of different
>things to see that have real, and significant historical value. I think a
>lot of the things show how immigration over the centuries has contributed to
>the making America today. A person would have to travel a lifetime to see
>everything there is to see.
>
>Take care,
>Linda
>
>
I'm guessing you're right, Linda. .

RonV
Tangling with the Python

SAGOTEB

2005-11-21, 7:01 pm

"Linda Nieuwenstein" <buzzball@REMOVETHIS-allstream.net> wrote in message news:4381ee27$1_1@cnews...
>
>
> "SAGOTEB" wrote
>
> All of the above and then some more not mentioned above. America is immigration of all sorts, and all those sorts have equally
> contributed to the continuous building of the USA, for better or for worse.

Then why from all people living in America choose from the above?, and
not from;
Cherokee, Navajo, Chippewa, Sioux, Choctaw, Pueblo, Apache, Iroquois,

Lumbee, Creek, Blackfoot, Chickasaw, Potawatomi, Tohono O' Odham,

Pima, Tlingit, Seminole, Alaskan Athabaskans, Cheyenne, Comanche,

Paiute, Puget Sound Salish, Yaqui, Osage, Kiowa, Delaware, Shoshone,

Crow, Cree, etc.

>
> Take care,
> Linda
>
>

SAGOTEB

2005-11-21, 7:01 pm

"RonaldV" <RonVick@NoSpam.me> wrote in message news:f044o15jflh6ilrdorrm0imhoreb1jbrb4@4ax.com...
>
> On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 15:41:41 +0100, "SAGOTEB" <sagoteb@chello.nl>
> wrote:
>
>
> Pirates are European? I've heard of pirates from the Barbarry Coast,
> the South China Sea, the Caribbean, Africa, even South America.
> Heck, some were even home grown here in the US, with an indeterminate
> ancestry.
>
> Ever read 'Treasure Island'? The pirates described in that book were
> actually the ones that lived just east of the US city of Savannah.

Long before America was discovered by Américo vespucci, pirates existed
in Europe.

>
> The true USA perspective? I'm not even sure one exists. We're so
> diverse, that if you find it anywhere on earth, it's likely to be
> here, too.
>
> We've had waves of immigrants from every country on earth. Some
> willing, some not (consider the Scotch brought here as slaves.)

See my comment to Linda.
>
>
> RonV
> Tangling with the Python
>

RonaldV

2005-11-21, 7:01 pm

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 19:52:14 +0100, "SAGOTEB" <sagoteb@chello.nl>
wrote:

>
>
>"Linda Nieuwenstein" <buzzball@REMOVETHIS-allstream.net> wrote in message news:4381ee27$1_1@cnews...
>
>Then why from all people living in America choose from the above?, and
>not from;
>Cherokee, Navajo, Chippewa, Sioux, Choctaw, Pueblo, Apache, Iroquois,
>
>Lumbee, Creek, Blackfoot, Chickasaw, Potawatomi, Tohono O' Odham,
>
>Pima, Tlingit, Seminole, Alaskan Athabaskans, Cheyenne, Comanche,
>
>Paiute, Puget Sound Salish, Yaqui, Osage, Kiowa, Delaware, Shoshone,
>
>Crow, Cree, etc.
>
>

Because I was listing the dinner theaters in the city of Orlando area.
In order to see the play done by my grandmother's people, the
Cherokee, you'd need to go to the town of Cherokee in North Carolina.
It's called 'Unto these Hills' and documents the history of the
Cherokee.

Our ancient foes, the Seminole, have their museum and play just north
of Lake Okeechobee.

The other tribes have their plays, councils and dances, too.

RonV
Tangling with the Python

RonaldV

2005-11-21, 7:01 pm

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:07:19 +0100, "SAGOTEB" <sagoteb@chello.nl>
wrote:

>
>
>"RonaldV" <RonVick@NoSpam.me> wrote in message news:f044o15jflh6ilrdorrm=
0imhoreb1jbrb4@4ax.com...
>
>Long before America was discovered by Am=E9rico vespucci, pirates existe=
d
>in Europe.

And while people in Europe where running around in animal skins, there
where pirates in the Mediterranean. 8^) =20

You're trying to assign a nationality to a certain criminal class.
Romanticized or not, and you're going to find it difficult to say that
only Europeans are pirates.

RonV
Tangling with the Python

Ms Joske

2005-11-21, 7:01 pm

Spandex Rutabaga wrote:
> Ms Joske wrote:

[color=darkred]
> None of the above. Chicago is the home of deep dish pizza, which
> can't be found in Italy but is much thicker than "thinner
> bottoms" you were talking about. More about the deep dish pizza
> here: http://members.cox.net/jjschnebel/ddishpiz.html.

I get it. No thin bottom. But still exactly what I find appealing:

"The mozzarella cheese would be on the bottom and the crust and
toppings would all bake and ooze together and become one of
America's legacies to fat foods nationwide and waistwide."

> To my mind the Italian pizza has a much tastier and more yeasty
> dough than the American one. It is also much more sparse in terms
> of toppings than the American one. This can be good or bad
> depending on whether you want to savor the taste of individual
> ingredients
> or if you want to stuff yourself with ingredients where none is
> individually of exceptionally fine taste but the pizza makes an
> entire meal. (The tasty dough is particularly important when
> there are few ingredients as in the Italian pizza.) The brick
> oven and the wood smoke also add a little something to the taste
> of Italian pizza. Fortunately there are some places in the US
> that create authentic Italian pizza as a change from the
> ubiquitous American one. It is also good to have friends who
> have a brick pizza oven in their kitchen :-)

Sure. Italian is tastier, more refined, especially from
Italian-owned pizzeria's. Yet it's that ooze and sludge and overall
disgusting greasiness that I... oh well, never mind :-)

Joske

SAGOTEB

2005-11-21, 7:01 pm

"RonaldV" <RonVick@NoSpam.me> wrote in message news:3s94o1hmrnmut0ee73k2s1ldkmtl0vub3q@4ax.com...

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 20:07:19 +0100, "SAGOTEB" <sagoteb@chello.nl>
wrote:

>
>
>"RonaldV" <RonVick@NoSpam.me> wrote in message news:f044o15jflh6ilrdorrm0imhoreb1jbrb4@4ax.com...
>
>Long before America was discovered by Américo vespucci, pirates existed
>in Europe.

And while people in Europe where running around in animal skins, there
where pirates in the Mediterranean. 8^)

You're trying to assign a nationality to a certain criminal class.
Romanticized or not, and you're going to find it difficult to say that
only Europeans are pirates.

Not really. They are part off both our country's histories.
(And lotts of other country's histories too) The difference is
I would not point people visiting Holland to a pirate show, or a
great Italian singing show, or a swirling Arabic Alladin show.
Instead I'll point them to typical Dutch achiefments I'm proud off.
I'm trying to imagine wat visitors of U.S.A. learn more about
the States, when viewing a pirate show, or the other shows you've
pointed to. The U.S.A have great other things to point visitors to,
Musea of native art, the John F. Kennedy space centre, Big city's
they build from scratch, and many other typical U.S.A achiefments, t
hat would me proud, if I were a American.
S.

RonV
Tangling with the Python

RonaldV

2005-11-21, 11:33 pm

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 00:24:28 +0100, "SAGOTEB" <sagoteb@chello.nl>
wrote:

>Not really. They are part off both our country's histories.
>(And lotts of other country's histories too) The difference is
>I would not point people visiting Holland to a pirate show, or a
>great Italian singing show, or a swirling Arabic Alladin show.
>Instead I'll point them to typical Dutch achiefments I'm proud off.
>I'm trying to imagine wat visitors of U.S.A. learn more about
>the States, when viewing a pirate show, or the other shows you've
>pointed to. The U.S.A have great other things to point visitors to,
>Musea of native art, the John F. Kennedy space centre, Big city's
>they build from scratch, and many other typical U.S.A achiefments, t
>hat would me proud, if I were a American.
>S.

People that visit Orlando, Fl. usually only come for the amusements.
Disney's three parks, golf courses, Universal's two parks, Bush
Gardens in Tampa, and many other tourist things. I see hundreds each
day on the way to the cruise ships.

Incidentally, Arabian Nights is mostly an equestrian show:
http://www.arabian-nights.com

Medieval times is your chance to see live horseback jousting-
http://www.medievaltimes.com/2006/flhomepage.htm

Dolly Parton's Dixie Stampede is currently doing it's Christmas show,
and has one of the most elaborate/fancy nativity scenes I've ever
seen. As well as chicken, pig, ostrich and horse races, there's ice
skating, singing and dancing. (Incidentally, Dolly is a home town gal
made good.)
http://www.dixiestampede.com/

Pirate's dinner is at:
http://www.piratesdinneradventure.com/home.html
Incidentally, women love to hang around after the show for the disco
party where they get to dance with the performers. (and this one
doesn't have any horses around!)

As with the others I mentioned, it's all fantasy entertainment, and
nobody really expects it to be representative of anything other than a
good time.

There are entire shopping villages that cater to the tourist trade.
Us natives may slip in from time to time to see what's going on, but
that is definitely not what we as a country are about.

Now, Fort Liberty was a make believe cowboy/Indian show, about as
realistic as a fifties cowboy movie.

To make money, you give people what they want to see. There's an
Indian in the town of Cherokee, standing in front of an Sioux style
tipi, dressed in western buckskins. He's managed to send 3 sons to
collage, and make a nice living, posing with the tourists in front of
the tipi.

Cherokee usually lived in log cabins, wore woven cotton, but who would
pay for a picture of themselves with a guy in rather plain clothes in
front of a log cabin.

The actual museum is across the river on the other side of the road in
front of the collage. Guess which gets all the business? It's a busy
day for the museum when there are ten people in there at once.
Meanwhile, there are thousands buying trinkets made in China in the
souvenir shops.

Dull night or I wouldn't have written so much...

Ron

RonaldV

2005-11-21, 11:33 pm

And my wife just reminded me that I'd left out Shamu's home: Sea
World.

http://www.seaworld.com/seaworld/fla/default.aspx

We'll occasionally go here for an 'After hours party'. Less nose,
less people, easier to get around, and the entertainment is more
adult.

willshak

2005-11-22, 7:22 pm

On 11/21/2005 1:52 PM US(ET), SAGOTEB took fingers to keyboard, and
typed the following:
> "Linda Nieuwenstein" <buzzball@REMOVETHIS-allstream.net> wrote in message news:4381ee27$1_1@cnews...
>
>
> Then why from all people living in America choose from the above?, and
> not from;
> Cherokee, Navajo, Chippewa, Sioux, Choctaw, Pueblo, Apache, Iroquois,
>
> Lumbee, Creek, Blackfoot, Chickasaw, Potawatomi, Tohono O' Odham,
>
> Pima, Tlingit, Seminole, Alaskan Athabaskans, Cheyenne, Comanche,
>
> Paiute, Puget Sound Salish, Yaqui, Osage, Kiowa, Delaware, Shoshone,
>
> Crow, Cree, etc.
>

The correct name of the Delaware Indians is Lenape. When Baron De La
Warr named the area after himself in 1610, I doubt whether the
indigenous people had been calling themselves Delaware before that date.
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Bill

SAGOTEB

2005-11-22, 7:22 pm

"willshak" <willshak@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message news:43835809$1_3@cnews...
>
> On 11/21/2005 1:52 PM US(ET), SAGOTEB took fingers to keyboard, and typed the following:
>
> The correct name of the Delaware Indians is Lenape. When Baron De La Warr named the area after himself in 1610, I doubt whether
> the indigenous people had been calling themselves Delaware before that date.

So true! Lenape Hach Ki? :-)
>
>
> --
> Bill
>

willshak

2005-11-23, 6:40 pm

On 11/22/2005 3:45 PM US(ET), SAGOTEB took fingers to keyboard, and
typed the following:
> "willshak" <willshak@hvc.rr.com> wrote in message news:43835809$1_3@cnews...
>
>
> So true! Lenape Hach Ki? :-)
>

Not that I know of. :-)

--
Bill