| Author |
OT link: spot the fake smiles
|
|
| Ms Joske 2005-10-02, 6:30 pm |
|
"Scientists distinguish between genuine and fake smiles by using a
coding system called the Facial Action Coding System (FACS), which
was devised by Professor Paul Ekman of the University of California
and Dr Wallace V. Friesen of the University of Kentucky."
"Most people are surprisingly bad at spotting fake smiles. One
possible explanation for this is that it may be easier for people to
get along if they don't always know what others are really feeling."
Oh dear... I got 16 out of 20 correct.
The whole test and explanation:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanb...les/index.shtml
My excuse for posting this link? Well, I'm sure there must be
something useful in this knowledge for those fixing portraits :-)
Joske
| |
| Lori Davis 2005-10-02, 6:30 pm |
|
Ms Joske wrote:
> "Scientists distinguish between genuine and fake smiles by using a
> coding system called the Facial Action Coding System (FACS), which
> was devised by Professor Paul Ekman of the University of California
> and Dr Wallace V. Friesen of the University of Kentucky."
>
> "Most people are surprisingly bad at spotting fake smiles. One
> possible explanation for this is that it may be easier for people to
> get along if they don't always know what others are really feeling."
>
> Oh dear... I got 16 out of 20 correct.
>
> The whole test and explanation:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanb...les/index.shtml
>
> My excuse for posting this link? Well, I'm sure there must be
> something useful in this knowledge for those fixing portraits :-)
>
I thought I'd be terrible at this, but I got 15 out of 20 right. And for
3 of the 5 I got wrong, I'd been wavering. That's kinda scary, I think...
Lori
| |
| Barbara J Bradley 2005-10-02, 6:30 pm |
|
"Ms Joske" <j.backer@home.nl> wrote in message
news:43400146_3@cnews...
>
> "Scientists distinguish between genuine and fake smiles by using a
> coding system called the Facial Action Coding System (FACS), which
> was devised by Professor Paul Ekman of the University of California
> and Dr Wallace V. Friesen of the University of Kentucky."
>
> "Most people are surprisingly bad at spotting fake smiles. One
> possible explanation for this is that it may be easier for people to
> get along if they don't always know what others are really feeling."
>
> Oh dear... I got 16 out of 20 correct.
>
> The whole test and explanation:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanb...les/index.shtml
>
> My excuse for posting this link? Well, I'm sure there must be
> something useful in this knowledge for those fixing portraits :-)
>
> Joske
That was fun. I got 15 out of 20 correct. :)
Barb
| |
| Jeanmarie 2005-10-02, 6:30 pm |
|
15 out of 20--- and on all the ones I missed, I called a genuine smile a
fake.
Which pretty much says something meaningful about my feelings about
sincerity.
| |
| AuntySpam 2005-10-02, 6:30 pm |
|
Same with me. I got all the fake ones right but called a few genuine smiles
fake.
--
AuntySpam (a.k.a. Norma), C-tech Volunteer
http://www.geocities.com/brewnetty/home.html
"Jeanmarie" <nospam@thisaddress.com> wrote in message
news:4340125f$1_3@cnews...
>
> 15 out of 20--- and on all the ones I missed, I called a genuine smile a
> fake.
>
> Which pretty much says something meaningful about my feelings about
> sincerity.
>
>
| |
| Ms Joske 2005-10-02, 6:30 pm |
|
Jeanmarie wrote:
> 15 out of 20--- and on all the ones I missed, I called a genuine
> smile a fake.
> Which pretty much says something meaningful about my feelings
> about sincerity.
Hmm... That seems at odds with what you wrote to Simon about liking
the "wtf don't take yourself so seriously" type. Maybe you
appreciate a bit of seriousness (comes with sincerity, authenticity,
and commitment) after all? :-)
I myself mistook three fake ones for genuine. Two because I figured
I was no expert in reading Eastern-Indian and Korean faces so I gave
them the benefit of the doubt.
Joske
| |
| Ms Joske 2005-10-02, 6:30 pm |
|
Barbara J Bradley wrote:
> "Ms Joske" wrote
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanb...les/index.shtml
[color=darkred]
> That was fun. I got 15 out of 20 correct. :)
You all did, amazingly. We're disproving the statement above.
Oh well. As the 'winner', now I know what to say to someone I don't
particularly long to get along with: "Do some warping on those lines
around your eyes first!":-)
Joske
| |
| Spandex Rutabaga 2005-10-02, 6:30 pm |
|
Lori Davis wrote:
>
> Ms Joske wrote:
>
> I thought I'd be terrible at this, but I got 15 out of 20 right. And for
> 3 of the 5 I got wrong, I'd been wavering. That's kinda scary, I think...
I got 18 out of 20 right and my two errors were the "relatively safe"
option of assigning fakeness for genuine smiles, not the other way
around. Perhaps I learned to distrust people in my career prior to
joining the Elastic Rootcrop Institute. What a depressing thought.
Life at the institute is much simpler in this regard since smiling
is forbidden (and would anyway be impossible to detect in the Yam
Yashmak Department :-)
> Lori
| |
|
|
Spandex Rutabaga <SpRu@agabatur.xednaps> wrote in
news:43402E28.A50EC217@agabatur.xednaps:
>
> Lori Davis wrote:
using a[color=darkred]
which[color=darkred]
California[color=darkred]
One[color=darkred]
people[color=darkred]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanb.../smiles/index.s
ht[color=darkred]
:-)[color=darkred]
right. And[color=darkred]
scary, I[color=darkred]
>
> I got 18 out of 20 right and my two errors were the "relatively
safe"
> option of assigning fakeness for genuine smiles, not the other
way
> around. Perhaps I learned to distrust people in my career prior
to
> joining the Elastic Rootcrop Institute. What a depressing
thought.
> Life at the institute is much simpler in this regard since
smiling
> is forbidden (and would anyway be impossible to detect in the
Yam
> Yashmak Department :-)
>
Also got 18 out of 20, but I called one woman's smile genuine that
was fake and one man's smile a fake when it was genuine. I didn't
spend a lot of time thinking about them, just clicked my choice as
soon as the movie ended EXCEPT for the woman I got wrong, where I
did spend a few extra seconds trying to decide.
Regards,
JoeB
| |
| Ms Joske 2005-10-03, 6:29 pm |
|
JoeB wrote:
> Spandex Rutabaga wrote
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanb...les/index.shtml
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
>
> Also got 18 out of 20
Whoever would have guessed that you gentlemen would be more
intuitive about this than the ladies here... it has to be a leftover
of the hunting instinct (run when the mammoth smiles) :-)
Joske
| |
| Spandex Rutabaga 2005-10-03, 6:29 pm |
|
Ms Joske wrote:
> it has to be a leftover
> of the hunting instinct (run when the mammoth smiles) :-)
I think it's more "Quick, invest bigtime in mammoth ivory futures
since a smiling mammoth doesn't realize we are going to kill it for
its tusks".
| |
| false_dmitrii@yahoo.com 2005-10-03, 6:29 pm |
|
On Mon, 3 Oct 2005 17:48:50 +0200, "Ms Joske" <j.backer@home.nl>
wrote:
>Whoever would have guessed that you gentlemen would be more
>intuitive about this than the ladies here... it has to be a leftover
>of the hunting instinct (run when the mammoth smiles) :-)
If it makes you feel better, I had 11 out of 20. I kept wondering
*why* everyone was smiling in the first place. :) Guess I need to be
more social. On the plus side, I won't have to feel bad if I ever
have to literally flip a coin (or an Executive Decision Maker) in such
situations.
Anyway, I'm here if anyone needs a gullible target for fake smiles. :)
false_dmitrii
| |
| RonaldV 2005-10-03, 6:29 pm |
|
On Mon, 3 Oct 2005 17:48:50 +0200, "Ms Joske" <j.backer@home.nl>
wrote:
>
>JoeB wrote:
>
>http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanb...les/index.shtml
>
>
>
>
>Whoever would have guessed that you gentlemen would be more
>intuitive about this than the ladies here... it has to be a leftover
>of the hunting instinct (run when the mammoth smiles) :-)
>
>Joske
Not me, I only got 16 out of the 20.
Looks as if that's pretty average.
RonV
Tangling with the Python
| |
|
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| Spandex Rutabaga 2005-10-03, 6:29 pm |
|
Alan Stancliff wrote:
>
> I'm bloody not going to tell how I did on it, see?
You were smiling as you posted that. But it was a fake smile :-)
| |
| Barbara J Bradley 2005-10-03, 6:30 pm |
|
"Alan Stancliff" <newsreader@nojunck_at_alanstancliff.com> wrote in
message news:q203k1l7m380v397o19jtg6er8r68mphat@4ax.com...
>
> I'm bloody not going to tell how I did on it, see?
>
> So there.
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Alan
Well, I don't blame you, Alan, Nobody wants to know how badly you
did anyway! LOL
Barb
| |
| SAGOTEB 2005-10-03, 6:30 pm |
|
"Ms Joske" <j.backer@home.nl> wrote in message news:43400146_3@cnews...
>
> "Scientists distinguish between genuine and fake smiles by using a
> coding system called the Facial Action Coding System (FACS), which
> was devised by Professor Paul Ekman of the University of California
> and Dr Wallace V. Friesen of the University of Kentucky."
>
> "Most people are surprisingly bad at spotting fake smiles. One
> possible explanation for this is that it may be easier for people to
> get along if they don't always know what others are really feeling."
>
> Oh dear... I got 16 out of 20 correct.
>
> The whole test and explanation:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanb...les/index.shtml
>
> My excuse for posting this link? Well, I'm sure there must be
> something useful in this knowledge for those fixing portraits :-)
>
> Joske
>
A genuine smile from me to you all!
http://tinyurl.com/d86zf
>
>
>
>
| |
| Barbara J Bradley 2005-10-03, 6:30 pm |
|
"SAGOTEB" <sagoteb@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:4341988a_3@cnews...
>
>
> "Ms Joske" <j.backer@home.nl> wrote in message
> news:43400146_3@cnews...
> A genuine smile from me to you all!
> http://tinyurl.com/d86zf
Okay, you've gone just a bit over the edge!! :)
Barb
| |
|
|
Ms Joske wrote:
: "Scientists distinguish between genuine and fake smiles by using a
: coding system called the Facial Action Coding System (FACS), which
: was devised by Professor Paul Ekman of the University of California
: and Dr Wallace V. Friesen of the University of Kentucky."
:
: "Most people are surprisingly bad at spotting fake smiles. One
: possible explanation for this is that it may be easier for people to
: get along if they don't always know what others are really feeling."
:
: Oh dear... I got 16 out of 20 correct.
:
: The whole test and explanation:
: http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanb...les/index.shtml
:
: My excuse for posting this link? Well, I'm sure there must be
: something useful in this knowledge for those fixing portraits :-)
:
: Joske
I am on very pokey dial-up .... but my curiousity got the best of me ......
I did the same as you Joske!
Linda
| |
| bjeanneb 2005-10-03, 10:23 pm |
|
> A genuine smile from me to you all!
> http://tinyurl.com/d86zf
And his camel is probably even more frightening.
Jeanne
| |
|
|
In message <43400146_3@cnews>, Ms Joske <j.backer@home.nl> writes
>
>"Scientists distinguish between genuine and fake smiles by using a
>coding system called the Facial Action Coding System (FACS), which
>was devised by Professor Paul Ekman of the University of California
>and Dr Wallace V. Friesen of the University of Kentucky."
>
>"Most people are surprisingly bad at spotting fake smiles. One
>possible explanation for this is that it may be easier for people to
>get along if they don't always know what others are really feeling."
>
>Oh dear... I got 16 out of 20 correct.
>
I got 15, but some people seemed to start off genuine and then hold
their smiles in a fake way, so I think the test was a bit dodgy anyway.
--
simon smith
| |
| Ms Joske 2005-10-04, 3:23 am |
|
Barbara J Bradley wrote:
> "Alan Stancliff" wrote
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> Well, I don't blame you, Alan, Nobody wants to know how badly
> you did anyway! LOL
I think Alan had them all correct...
Look!
Did you see that superior smile?!?
Joske :-)
| |
| Ms Joske 2005-10-04, 3:23 am |
|
Lis wrote:
> Ms Joske wrote:
[color=darkred]
> I am on very pokey dial-up .... but my curiousity got the
> best of me ......
Never trust a link I post, Linda... you never know where it will
bring you :-)
> I did the same as you Joske!
Oh good, now I don't feel so wedged in anymore between the other
ladies and those extraordinary gents.
Joske
| |
| Ms Joske 2005-10-04, 3:24 am |
|
simon wrote:
> Ms Joske writes
> I got 15, but some people seemed to start off genuine and then
> hold their smiles in a fake way, so I think the test was a bit
> dodgy anyway.
I think so too, if only because there seems to be a cut after the
smiles, and the context (situation, sound) is missing.
Joske
| |
| Ms Joske 2005-10-04, 3:24 am |
|
Spandex Rutabaga wrote:
> Ms Joske wrote:
[color=darkred]
> I think it's more "Quick, invest bigtime in mammoth ivory futures
> since a smiling mammoth doesn't realize we are going to kill it
> for its tusks".
Yes... and millennia later a cavewoman and her family stumble
upon an abandoned cave full of tusks.
'Wow, cool stuff! What are they for, mom?'
'I don't know Flint, but they look unused. Let's see if we can build
a nice workspace from them for dad to keep his fingerpaint.'
Joske
http://www.thefinancial411.com/Images/Caveman.jpg
| |
| Ms Joske 2005-10-04, 3:24 am |
|
false_dmitrii@yahoo.com wrote:
> "Ms Joske" wrote:
[color=darkred]
> If it makes you feel better, I had 11 out of 20. I kept wondering
> *why* everyone was smiling in the first place. :) Guess I need to
> be more social.
On the contrary. They said bad guessers are probably good because
that's what makes people get along... Ignorance is bliss, or
something? :-)
> On the plus side, I won't have to feel bad if I
> ever have to literally flip a coin (or an Executive Decision
> Maker) in such situations.
> Anyway, I'm here if anyone needs a gullible target for fake
> smiles. :)
Sorry, I've just used up this month's stash :-)
Joske
| |
| Nightingail 2005-10-04, 3:24 am |
|
Ms Joske wrote:
> false_dmitrii@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> On the contrary. They said bad guessers are probably good because
> that's what makes people get along... Ignorance is bliss, or
> something? :-)
I'll have to go back and read that part. I only scored 12 out of 20, and
figured it meant I had bad social skills, which in my mind would be
accurate ;-0!
p.s. Apologies if multiple posts show up. The 'bot seems to be tripping
on something in my reply, so I've rephrased it. Let's see if this goes
through.
Gail
--
Nightingail's Gallery
http://www.nightingail.com
| |
| Barbara J Bradley 2005-10-04, 6:52 pm |
|
"Ms Joske" <j.backer@home.nl> wrote in message
news:4342121a$1_2@cnews...
>
> Barbara J Bradley wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I think Alan had them all correct...
>
> Look!
>
> Did you see that superior smile?!?
>
> Joske :-)
Yep, I considered that possibility too.
Barb :)
| |
| Zilbandy 2005-10-04, 6:52 pm |
|
On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 18:22:00 +0200, "Ms Joske" <j.backer@home.nl>
wrote:
>"Most people are surprisingly bad at spotting fake smiles. One
>possible explanation for this is that it may be easier for people to
>get along if they don't always know what others are really feeling."
Ok, I got 7 out of 20. I should have done better flipping a coin. :(
But, I'm not angry at anyone, so it must be ok. LOL
| |
| Michelle 2005-10-04, 6:52 pm |
|
Well this was fun :-) Thanks for posting the link, Joske. I
got 16/20 also.
"Ms Joske" <j.backer@home.nl> wrote in message
news:43400146_3@cnews...
>
> "Scientists distinguish between genuine and fake smiles by
using a
> coding system called the Facial Action Coding System (FACS),
which
> was devised by Professor Paul Ekman of the University of
California
> and Dr Wallace V. Friesen of the University of Kentucky."
>
> "Most people are surprisingly bad at spotting fake smiles. One
> possible explanation for this is that it may be easier for
people to
> get along if they don't always know what others are really
feeling."
>
> Oh dear... I got 16 out of 20 correct.
>
> The whole test and explanation:
>
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanb...les/index.shtml
>
> My excuse for posting this link? Well, I'm sure there must be
> something useful in this knowledge for those fixing portraits
:-)
>
> Joske
--
Michelle ;-)
Michelle's Paint Shop Pro & More!
http://members.aol.com/Mish234/index.html
Original tubes, links to plugins, tutorials, fonts & more.
| |
| Ms Joske 2005-10-04, 6:52 pm |
|
Nightingail wrote:
> Ms Joske wrote:
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> I'll have to go back and read that part. I only scored 12 out of
> 20, and figured it meant I had bad social skills, which in my
> mind would be accurate ;-0!
It said people are probably bad at telling if a facially expressed
feeling is real so that they can get along.
But my social inclinations are rather those of the attic scholar
while I also have a good eye for what people feel. I'm the one who
thinks up excuses not to go to a party but also the one who spots
the sad face with the fake smile in the corner. So you see, I think
the ones with the good social skills are those who can convince you
of the sincerity of their smiles, and you, if you choose not to look
behind the masks :-)
> p.s. Apologies if multiple posts show up. The 'bot seems to be
> tripping on something in my reply, so I've rephrased it. Let's
> see if this goes through.
I only see this one.
Joske
| |
| Lori Davis 2005-10-04, 10:22 pm |
|
Ms Joske wrote:
> JoeB wrote:
>
>
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanb...les/index.shtml
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Whoever would have guessed that you gentlemen would be more
> intuitive about this than the ladies here... it has to be a leftover
> of the hunting instinct (run when the mammoth smiles) :-)
In my own case, all the mistakes were in being too kind (which runs
right in line with another gender stereotype). All five of my mistakes
were choosing real for fake. Now, in at least four of those cases I
didn't go with my first impression. For one I remember thinking, "Oh, it
looks fake, but she might just be shy", and in another case I thought,
"It looks fake, but it might just be a wry or resigned smile." (I guess
even now I'd like to know more about what the researchers define as "fake".)
Lori
| |
| Lori Davis 2005-10-04, 10:22 pm |
|
Jeanmarie wrote:
> 15 out of 20--- and on all the ones I missed, I called a genuine smile a
> fake.
>
> Which pretty much says something meaningful about my feelings about
> sincerity.
>
Hehe, JP, I did just the opposite: thought 5 of the fake smiles were
genuine. (I did talk myself into 3 or 4 of those, though. Looks like I'm
too perceptive in this regard but make excuses for other people, or
something like that. *lol*)
Lori
| |
| Lori Davis 2005-10-04, 10:22 pm |
|
Ms Joske wrote:
> Barbara J Bradley wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanb...les/index.shtml
>
>
>
>
> You all did, amazingly. We're disproving the statement above.
>
> Oh well. As the 'winner', now I know what to say to someone I don't
> particularly long to get along with: "Do some warping on those lines
> around your eyes first!":-)
I apparently already knew (intuitively) about the eyes. Even before they
asked what the cue is that you use, I had said to myself, "You know,
it's really all in the eyes."
Lori :)
| |
| JP0401 2005-10-04, 10:22 pm |
|
I'm with you. Except I was looking for sincerity in their eyes. Oh
well, I really SHOULD have used the executive decision maker, if the
battery in it is still good.
Judi
false_dmitrii@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Mon, 3 Oct 2005 17:48:50 +0200, "Ms Joske" <j.backer@home.nl>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> If it makes you feel better, I had 11 out of 20. I kept wondering
> *why* everyone was smiling in the first place. :) Guess I need to be
> more social. On the plus side, I won't have to feel bad if I ever
> have to literally flip a coin (or an Executive Decision Maker) in such
> situations.
>
> Anyway, I'm here if anyone needs a gullible target for fake smiles. :)
>
> false_dmitrii
>
| |
| Nightingail 2005-10-04, 10:22 pm |
|
Ms Joske wrote:
> Nightingail wrote:
> But my social inclinations are rather those of the attic scholar
> while I also have a good eye for what people feel. I'm the one who
> thinks up excuses not to go to a party but also the one who spots
> the sad face with the fake smile in the corner. So you see, I think
> the ones with the good social skills are those who can convince you
> of the sincerity of their smiles, and you, if you choose not to look
> behind the masks :-)
>
In real life, I'm the pretty much the same as you are. I guess I must
just not be very perceptive when it comes to cyber smiles ;-)
Gail
--
Nightingail's Gallery
http://www.nightingail.com
| |
| Ms Joske 2005-10-05, 6:32 pm |
|
Lori Davis wrote:
> Ms Joske wrote:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/humanb...les/index.shtml
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> I apparently already knew (intuitively) about the eyes. Even
> before they asked what the cue is that you use, I had said to
> myself, "You know, it's really all in the eyes."
It probably is. I myself learned about it through a documentary I
saw eons ago about aliens in movies. It's almost impossible to make
a convincing alien mask, because there are countless muscles at work
in a face. Ever notice those cardboard lizard smiles? Or worse,
where the alien would talk through an unmoving mouth? :-)
Joske
| |
| Ms Joske 2005-10-05, 6:32 pm |
|
Nightingail wrote:
> Ms Joske wrote:
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> In real life, I'm the pretty much the same as you are. I guess I
> must just not be very perceptive when it comes to cyber smiles ;-)
{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Gail}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
Sorry, I could not resist. Really sorry :-) <--genuine warm smile
Joske
| |
| Ms Joske 2005-10-05, 6:32 pm |
|
Lori Davis wrote:
> Ms Joske wrote:
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
> In my own case, all the mistakes were in being too kind (which
> runs right in line with another gender stereotype). All five of my
> mistakes were choosing real for fake. Now, in at least four
> of those cases I didn't go with my first impression. For one I
> remember thinking, "Oh, it looks fake, but she might just be
> shy",
Exactly. Especially oriental smiles have the benefit of the doubt.
> and in another case I thought, "It looks fake, but it might
> just be a wry or resigned smile." (I guess even now I'd like to
> know more about what the researchers define as "fake".)
I don't know, but my definition of a fake smile is one that conceals
the real feelings. It might be a polite smile (I'm not listening) or
a defensive smile (I'd rather not meet you here). Or it can be a
smile precisely to show its fakeness (I think you're silly) :-)
But usually a smile is just to show you're harmless, I think.
Joske
| |
| Nightingail 2005-10-06, 3:21 am |
|
Ms Joske wrote:
>
> {{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Gail}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}
>
> Sorry, I could not resist. Really sorry :-) <--genuine warm smile
>
> Joske
I remember those {{{{{{{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}}}}}} from my chat room days
;-p!
Gail
--
Nightingail's Gallery
http://www.nightingail.com
| |
| Nightingail 2005-10-11, 6:44 pm |
| Ms Joske wrote:
> false_dmitrii@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
> On the contrary. They said bad guessers are probably good because
> that's what makes people get along... Ignorance is bliss, or
> something? :-)
I'll have to go back and read that part. I only scored 12 out of 20, and
figured it meant I had terrible social skills, which in my mind would be
close to the truth ;-0!
Gail
--
Nightingail's Gallery
http://www.nightingail.com
| |
| Nightingail 2005-10-11, 6:44 pm |
| Ms Joske wrote:
> false_dmitrii@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> On the contrary. They said bad guessers are probably good because
> that's what makes people get along... Ignorance is bliss, or
> something? :-)
>
I'll have to go back and read that part. I only scored 12 out of 20, and
figured it meant I had terrible social skills, which in my mind would be
close to the truth ;-0!
Gail
--
Nightingail's Gallery
http://www.nightingail.com
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