Website Design Forum - Is the end of CSS as we know it?

Author

Is the end of CSS as we know it?

1001 Webs

2007-11-10, 6:18 pm

On Nov 10, 7:20 pm, "Andr=E9 Gillibert"
<tabkanDELETETHIS...@yahodeletethato.fr> wrote:
> Ed Jensen wrote:
>
>
> I've programmed many tools, for personal use, with C++, and it works very
> well. I wouldn't use Java (too heavy runtime inertia), C# or C. I find
> that C++ fits my needs.
> C++ isn't the "ultimate universal tool", but it's perfectly fine for many
> application fields for people who master the language.
>
> There's a difference between C++ and CSS.
> Most C++ developers are somehow trained and produce quite correct
> applications.
> But, most CSS developers are highly ignorant, and have fundamentally wrong
> design principles, such as "it should render identically eveywhere".
I fail to see what's "fundamentally wrong" with that.
It is a basic graphic design principle.
When you design a magazine or newspaper for example, every page should
look the same in terms of structure.
You can play with the headers, image positioning, etc. but all pages
should follow the same pattern.
That's why you use Templates and grids.

> Bad news: I've to use many web sites that've been designed by ignorant web
> designers.
> If CSS didn't exist or was harder to use by bad web designers, I wouldn't
> get all that bad stuff.
And if CSS was better implemented and was easier to use by every web
designers, you will get even less bad stuff.

> That's true to a much larger extent for
> JavaScript. 99% of the JavaScript of the web is harmful or at best useles=
s=2E
> I often disable author's CSS, but, unfortunately, there're more and more
> pages that become hard to read without author's CSS.
>
>
> No, it's misused BECAUSE it's too friendly. You don't need to read any
> spec to use it!
> e.g. WISYWIG editors worsen the thing.
I beg to differ. Many of those tags are useless and not recommended,
so why on Earth are they allowed?
Could you please tell me what's the use of, for example font-size:
10px; ?

> In the "CSS is a car" analogy, I would say that, you need a driver license
> to drive a car (because it's powerful and dangerous) but you don't need a
> license to use the powerful and dangerous CSS. Imagine if 3 years old
> children were allowed to drive a car without license?
Even if you have a CSS license you can easily go wrong.

[color=darkred]
> The tool is being too complex (because it's powerful), which implies:
> 1) That IE don't support it.
So that means that more than half of all Internet users don't support
it.
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp

> 2) That most web developers don't use it correctly.
And depending on which web developer you speak to, he/she will tell
you a different thing about how CSS should be used.
And that applies to even the most basic concepts

> Note: Purely from a user point-of-view, user CSS (without author CSS) is
> great. If CSS had to be removed from the web then, user CSS should have to
> be kept.
That makes more sense.

1001 Webs

2007-11-12, 6:18 pm

On Nov 12, 4:56 pm, Tim Streater <tim.strea...@dante.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <1194880439.017332.232...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> 1001Webs <1001w...@XXXXXXXXXX> wrote:
>
>
> OK, so how do I do data validation based on user input? How do I make
> the content of a <select> vary depending on the user's choice in another
> <select> ??

http://search.techrepublic.com.com/...validation.html

Andy Dingley

2007-11-12, 6:18 pm

On 12 Nov, 15:56, Tim Streater <tim.strea...@dante.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <1194880439.017332.232...@d55g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> 1001 Webs <1001w...@XXXXXXXXXX> wrote:
>
>
> OK, so how do I do data validation based on user input?

It's not a _requirement_. You can still do it purely server-side,
which you ought to support as a fallback anyway for both security and
accessibility reasons.

Tim Streater

2007-11-12, 6:18 pm

In article <1194893219.052938.123110@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
Andy Dingley <dingbat@codesmiths.com> wrote:

> On 12 Nov, 15:56, Tim Streater <tim.strea...@dante.org.uk> wrote:
>
> It's not a _requirement_. You can still do it purely server-side,
> which you ought to support as a fallback anyway for both security and
> accessibility reasons.

Of more importance, actually, is the second question I asked, about
modifying one <select> based on the results of another. In some cases I
use Javascript all by itself, when the contents of the select are
limited to a few values, and if, for example, the user choosing "A" in
<select> 1 means they must be prevented from choosing "B" in <select> 2.

Where I really need to restrict the contents of another <select> I put
it in an iFrame, which is passed the results of <select> 1 and then
displays <select> 2. I still have to use javaScript to ensure that the
iFrame <select> is passed a useful parameter and so displays right
subset of values.

My app simply doesn't scale without this sort of technique.

Which is why I complain when I see blanket statements like "JavaScript
is not required to design websites these days".

1001 Webs

2007-11-12, 6:18 pm

On Nov 12, 9:44 pm, Tim Streater <timstrea...@waitrose.com> wrote:
> In article <1194893219.052938.123...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> Andy Dingley <ding...@codesmiths.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Of more importance, actually, is the second question I asked, about
> modifying one <select> based on the results of another. In some cases I
> use Javascript all by itself, when the contents of the select are
> limited to a few values, and if, for example, the user choosing "A" in
> <select> 1 means they must be prevented from choosing "B" in <select> 2.
>
> Where I really need to restrict the contents of another <select> I put
> it in an iFrame, which is passed the results of <select> 1 and then
> displays <select> 2. I still have to use javaScript to ensure that the
> iFrame <select> is passed a useful parameter and so displays right
> subset of values.
>
> My app simply doesn't scale without this sort of technique.
>
> Which is why I complain when I see blanket statements like "JavaScript
> is not required to design websites these days".

And why do you have to use Javascript?
Client-side support for Javascript, as it happens with CSS
implementation, is inconsistent across browsers. Some browsers support
scripts very well and others bits and pieces or even nothing at all.
Furthermore, many people turns off Javascript, for security issues.
And hackers can disable your client-side checking in order to feed you
bad data. If you rely solely on client-side checking, you're bound to
get hacked eventually.

One big advantage to server-side validation is that you can use PHP,
which has a wide variety of functions and language features to help
you chop and change strings, check numbers are within ranges, and so
on.
If you use PHP, validation tasks are significantly simplified by the
PEAR Validate class, which provides ready-made methods for common user
validation tasks.
Furthermore, you can use PHP to connect to a database to check whether
a username exists, for example, which is simply impossible using
client-side scripting.

This download lists the more useful PHP validation tools and also
explains how you can use them to increase the overall security of your
Web applications.
http://downloads.techrepublic.com.c...px?docid=178272

Also read:
http://www.hudzilla.org/phpbook/read.php/7_7_3

Jerry Stuckle

2007-11-12, 6:18 pm

Tim Streater wrote:
> In article <1194893219.052938.123110@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> Andy Dingley <dingbat@codesmiths.com> wrote:
>
>
> Of more importance, actually, is the second question I asked, about
> modifying one <select> based on the results of another. In some cases I
> use Javascript all by itself, when the contents of the select are
> limited to a few values, and if, for example, the user choosing "A" in
> <select> 1 means they must be prevented from choosing "B" in <select> 2.
>
> Where I really need to restrict the contents of another <select> I put
> it in an iFrame, which is passed the results of <select> 1 and then
> displays <select> 2. I still have to use javaScript to ensure that the
> iFrame <select> is passed a useful parameter and so displays right
> subset of values.
>
> My app simply doesn't scale without this sort of technique.
>
> Which is why I complain when I see blanket statements like "JavaScript
> is not required to design websites these days".
>

Tim,

You don't even need to use an iframe to do it. Works fine without one.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

1001 Webs

2007-11-12, 6:18 pm

On Nov 12, 11:14 pm, Jerry Stuckle <jstuck...@attglobal.net> wrote:
> Tim Streater wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Tim,
>
> You don't even need to use an iframe to do it. Works fine without one.

Oh, shut the flunk up, really !!!
How would you know?
Can't you stop for a second making a fool yourself ???

What a disgusting pathetic CRIMINAL troll you are...

Tell us moron, how would you do it?
It's an straight question, just paste the code here.

Kevin

2007-11-13, 6:17 pm

On Nov 12, 10:13 am, 1001 Webs <1001w...@XXXXXXXXXX> wrote:
> On Nov 12, 3:07 pm, Kevin <kevinlen...@lakeareawebs.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I think you are a bit confused here.
> As is often misunderstood by the layperson, a Web Developer does not
> always create graphics, logos, or identity, or create written, video,
> or audio content for a website, however some do.
> Web Designers, Web Copy Editors and Web Content Creators are different
> from Web Developers.
>
> A web developer is a software developer or software engineer who is
> specifically engaged in the development of World Wide Web
> applications, or distributed network applications that are run over
> the HTTP protocol from a web server to a web browser.
>
> Although many web developers are also skilled in web design,
> information architecture, usability engineering, web content
> management systems, web server administration, and search engine
> optimization, many of them are not, and the final result are superbly
> coded sites that are horribly looking, never show up in search engines
> and lack any real-world useful functionality.
>
>
> Fine argument.
> And you can go get a college degree in programming without even taking
> a graphic arts course at all.
>
>
> Neither XHTML nor JavaScript are required to design websites nowadays.
> The International Standards, specially when it comes to CSS
> implementation across different browsers, are anything but Standards.
>
> And by that same argument, if you want to promote yourself as a web
> designer, you should have an extensive Graphic Design background
>
>
> CSS has been out for 11 years now, but real implementation of CSS in
> web design, hasn't caught on until recent years, due to its horrendous
> implementation.
>
>
> Anyone who is unable to understand and put into practice the most
> basic principles of Graphic Design should not be advertising
> themselves as web designers, ever.
> They just do not have the skills to do the job on a professional
> level.
>
>
> A Web page consists of information for which the Web site is developed
> and in that sense, a website might be compared to a book, where each
> page of the book is a web page.
>
> There are many basic design concerns such as:
> * The content: The substance, and information on the site should
> be relevant to the site and should target the area of the public that
> the website is concerned with.
> * The usability: The site should be user-friendly, with the
> interface and navigation simple and reliable.
> * The appearance: The graphics and text should include a single
> style that flows throughout, to show consistency. The style should be
> professional, appealing and relevant.
> * The visibility: The site must also be easy to find via most, if
> not all, major search engines and advertisement media.
>
> Many web developers who call themselves also web designers fail to
> acknowledge these basic design aspects.
> The result is that pages created by web designers rank usually higher
> than pages created by web developers who lack understanding and
> training in the field of Graphic Design.

Here is a definition for you of Web design. I am sure even you will
agree that graphic artists in general are not trained in the languages
and technologies needed to do the web design job especially when it
comes to Dynamic pages as defined below. (By the way the definition is
from wikipedia)

Web design is a process of conceptualization, planning, modeling, and
execution of electronic media content delivery via Internet in the
form of Markup language suitable for interpretation by Web browser and
display as Graphical user interface (GUI).

The intent of web design is to create a web site -- a collection of
electronic files that reside on a web server/servers and present
content and interactive features/interfaces to the end user in form of
Web pages once requested. Such elements as text, bit-mapped images
(GIFs, JPEGs, PNGs), forms can be placed on the page using HTML/XHTML/
XML tags. Displaying more complex media (vector graphics, animations,
videos, sounds) requires plug-ins such as Flash, QuickTime, Java run-
time environment, etc. Plug-ins are also embedded into web page by
using HTML/XHTML tags.

Improvements in browsers' compliance with W3C standards prompted a
widespread acceptance and usage of XHTML/XML in conjunction with
Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) to position and manipulate web page
elements and objects. Latest standards and proposals aim at leading to
browsers' ability to deliver a wide variety of media and accessibility
options to the client possibly without employing plug-ins.

Typically web pages are classified as static or dynamic.

Static pages don't change content and layout with every request unless
a human (web master/programmer) manually updates the page.

Dynamic pages adapt their content and/or appearance depending on end-
user's input/interaction or changes in the computing environment
(user, time, database modifications, etc.) Content can be changed on
the client side (end-user's computer) by using client-side scripting
languages (JavaScript, JScript, Actionscript, etc.) to alter DOM
elements (DHTML). Dynamic content is often compiled on the server
utilizing server-side scripting languages (Perl, PHP, ASP, JSP,
ColdFusion, etc.). Both approaches are usually used in complex
applications.

With growing specialization within communication design and
information technology fields, there is a strong tendency to draw a
clear line between web design and web development.

Now it was stated earlier in this post that

"Anyone who is unable to understand and put into practice the most
basic principles of Graphic Design should not be advertising
themselves as web designers, ever.
They just do not have the skills to do the job on a professional
level."

It is also true that you can get a bachelor of Science Degree in
Graphic Design and not even have a class in HTML or CSS for that
matter. With that being said Graphic Artists should never advertise
themselves as web designers as they just do not have the skills to do
the job on a professional level.

Graphic Artists in general are not trained to work with the web markup
languages, scripting language, programming languages, frameworks or
even styles.

In reality you touched on it a bit earlier when you said Developers
can write a page that is code perfect but looks ugly. In reality a
graphic artist might be able to create a pretty picture of a web
layout but be totally clueless on how to properly code it to be a
functional website. A web designer indicates a level of coding skills
not required of a graphic artist. For a web designer the appearance
of a site to others does not matter. What one person perceives as ugly
might be exactly what the customer is asking for. It may in fact go
against multiple graphic arts rules or concepts such as the rule of
thirds for example.

Travis Newbury

2007-11-13, 6:17 pm

On Nov 13, 11:07 am, Kevin <kevinlen...@lakeareawebs.com> wrote:
> read more =BB

Man, by the time I got to the end of this post I completely forgot
what the hell we were talking about....

Bone Ur

2007-11-13, 6:17 pm

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:33:13 GMT
Travis Newbury scribed:

> On Nov 13, 11:07 am, Kevin <kevinlen...@lakeareawebs.com> wrote:
>
> Man, by the time I got to the end of this post I completely forgot
> what the hell we were talking about....

The mind is the second thing to go.

--
Bone Ur
Cavemen have formidable pheromones.

1001 Webs

2007-11-13, 6:17 pm

On Nov 13, 5:07 pm, Kevin <kevinlen...@lakeareawebs.com> wrote:
> On Nov 12, 10:13 am, 1001 Webs <1001w...@XXXXXXXXXX> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Here is a definition for you of Web design. I am sure even you will
> agree that graphic artists in general are not trained in the languages
> and technologies needed to do the web design job especially when it
> comes to Dynamic pages as defined below. (By the way the definition is
> from wikipedia)
>
> Web design is a process of conceptualization, planning, modeling, and
> execution of electronic media content delivery via Internet in the
> form of Markup language suitable for interpretation by Web browser and
> display as Graphical user interface (GUI).
>
> The intent of web design is to create a web site -- a collection of
> electronic files that reside on a web server/servers and present
> content and interactive features/interfaces to the end user in form of
> Web pages once requested. Such elements as text, bit-mapped images
> (GIFs, JPEGs, PNGs), forms can be placed on the page using HTML/XHTML/
> XML tags. Displaying more complex media (vector graphics, animations,
> videos, sounds) requires plug-ins such as Flash, QuickTime, Java run-
> time environment, etc. Plug-ins are also embedded into web page by
> using HTML/XHTML tags.
>
> Improvements in browsers' compliance with W3C standards prompted a
> widespread acceptance and usage of XHTML/XML in conjunction with
> Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) to position and manipulate web page
> elements and objects. Latest standards and proposals aim at leading to
> browsers' ability to deliver a wide variety of media and accessibility
> options to the client possibly without employing plug-ins.
>
> Typically web pages are classified as static or dynamic.
>
> Static pages don't change content and layout with every request unless
> a human (web master/programmer) manually updates the page.
>
> Dynamic pages adapt their content and/or appearance depending on end-
> user's input/interaction or changes in the computing environment
> (user, time, database modifications, etc.) Content can be changed on
> the client side (end-user's computer) by using client-side scripting
> languages (JavaScript, JScript, Actionscript, etc.) to alter DOM
> elements (DHTML). Dynamic content is often compiled on the server
> utilizing server-side scripting languages (Perl, PHP, ASP, JSP,
> ColdFusion, etc.). Both approaches are usually used in complex
> applications.
>
> With growing specialization within communication design and
> information technology fields, there is a strong tendency to draw a
> clear line between web design and web development.
>
> Now it was stated earlier in this post that
>
> "Anyone who is unable to understand and put into practice the most
> basic principles of Graphic Design should not be advertising
> themselves as web designers, ever.
> They just do not have the skills to do the job on a professional
> level."
>
> It is also true that you can get a bachelor of Science Degree in
> Graphic Design and not even have a class in HTML or CSS for that
> matter. With that being said Graphic Artists should never advertise
> themselves as web designers as they just do not have the skills to do
> the job on a professional level.
>
> Graphic Artists in general are not trained to work with the web markup
> languages, scripting language, programming languages, frameworks or
> even styles.
>
> In reality you touched on it a bit earlier when you said Developers
> can write a page that is code perfect but looks ugly. In reality a
> graphic artist might be able to create a pretty picture of a web
> layout but be totally clueless on how to properly code it to be a
> functional website. A web designer indicates a level of coding skills
> not required of a graphic artist. For a web designer the appearance
> of a site to others does not matter. What one person perceives as ugly
> might be exactly what the customer is asking for. It may in fact go
> against multiple graphic arts rules or concepts such as the rule of
> thirds for example.

Agreed on about everything you said.

Since we agree that both designers and developers are equally
important, shouldn't we all making that point to potential customers
instead of engaging on silly fights among ourselves?

That way, Web Developers, Web Designers and even Web Copy Editors and
Web Content Creators will all get recognition from those customers,
i.e., work.