Website Design Forum - Need some feedback on a site design

Author

Need some feedback on a site design

tatata9999@gmail.com

2007-10-28, 7:20 pm

I've got complaints that my site/app is "Ugly Betty", so, I gave it a
shot to give it a face lift myself though not a designer. Please take
a look at it, http://www.mytata.net/
and let me know what you think of it. My idea is to keep it simple.

Thks.

Brendan Gillatt

2007-10-28, 7:20 pm

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tatata9999@XXXXXXXXXX wrote:
> I've got complaints that my site/app is "Ugly Betty", so, I gave it a
> shot to give it a face lift myself though not a designer. Please take
> a look at it, http://www.mytata.net/
> and let me know what you think of it. My idea is to keep it simple.

Replace the tables with elements that mean something, validate it, then
start thinking about what it looks like ;]

- --
Brendan Gillatt
brendan {at} brendangillatt {dot} co {dot} uk
http://www.brendangillatt.co.uk
PGP Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup...arch=0xBACD7433
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Beauregard T. Shagnasty

2007-10-28, 7:20 pm

tatata9999@XXXXXXXXXX wrote:

> I've got complaints that my site/app is "Ugly Betty",

Still is... :-/

> so, I gave it a shot to give it a face lift myself though not a
> designer. Please take a look at it, http://www.mytata.net/ and let
> me know what you think of it. My idea is to keep it simple.

1. Background is ugly purple.

2. Some links use JavaScript to open a new window. Don't do that; some
~10% of your visitors have JavaScript disabled or stripped by a
corporate firewall, and can't see those pages. Others will be using
popup blockers.

3. It is toooo simple.

4. New pages are supposed to be Strict, not Transitional.
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">

5. On: http://web.mytata.net:8000/myTA/index2_so.cfm
"Home" goes to the same page.

6. Add a "Don't like it" choice.

7. Learn to use CSS and proper semantic markup. Using code such as:
<td colspan="8"
became passé in about 1998. Once you have real markup, and all
presentation removed from the HTML, styling is much easier. Use headings
and paragraphs for your content instead of wildly displaced table cells.

8. Validate, validate, validate.
<http://validator.w3.org/check?verbo...A8000%2FmyTA%2F>

9. Read other posts in these groups asking for critiques, and follow the
advice given, as it would apply to your site. It's not all about the
'appearance' of the site.

--
-bts
-Motorcycles defy gravity; cars just suck

tatata9999@gmail.com

2007-10-28, 7:20 pm

Thks, please see my embedded comments.

On Oct 28, 12:40 pm, "Beauregard T. Shagnasty"
<a.nony.m...@example.invalid> wrote:
> tatata9...@XXXXXXXXXX wrote:
>
> Still is... :-/
>
>
> 1. Background is ugly purple.
Very very odd. take a look at, http://web.mytata.net:8000/myTA/screenshots=
/homepage.bmp

>
> 2. Some links use JavaScript to open a new window. Don't do that; some
> ~10% of your visitors have JavaScript disabled or stripped by a
> corporate firewall, and can't see those pages. Others will be using
> popup blockers.
I know, I know, javascript is a big security concern, however, this
damn thing provides better usability, think, think, think, talking to
myself...
>
> 3. It is toooo simple.
Good if you implied ease of use as well. Do you think it delivers
core value for time management for the college crowd?
Also, I could you some beta stuff privately if you don't mind...

> 4. New pages are supposed to be Strict, not Transitional.
> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01//EN"
> "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd">
I'll think about that.

>
> 5. On: http://web.mytata.net:8000/myTA/index2_so.cfm
> "Home" goes to the same page.
Yes, supposed so, but I have to get the point across very clearly to
diffuse confusion.

>
> 6. Add a "Don't like it" choice.
hmm, I learn to slap myself :)

>
> 7. Learn to use CSS and proper semantic markup. Using code such as:
> <td colspan=3D"8"
> became pass=E9 in about 1998. Once you have real markup, and all
> presentation removed from the HTML, styling is much easier. Use headings
> and paragraphs for your content instead of wildly displaced table cells.
Thank you for the push, I know I know, priority-wise, it's not on
top...

>
> 8. Validate, validate, validate.
> <http://validator.w3.org/check?verbo...%2Fweb.mytata.=
n=2E..>
Similar answer to #7

>
> 9. Read other posts in these groups asking for critiques, and follow the
> advice given, as it would apply to your site. It's not all about the
> 'appearance' of the site.
Please elaborate a bit on this when you have a chance...

Once again, many thanks.

>
> --
> -bts
> -Motorcycles defy gravity; cars just suck

tatata9999@gmail.com

2007-10-28, 7:20 pm

On Oct 28, 11:54 am, Brendan Gillatt
<brendanREMOVET...@brendanREMOVETHISgillatt.co.uk> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> tatata9...@XXXXXXXXXX wrote:
>
> Replace the tables with elements that mean something, validate it, then
> start thinking about what it looks like ;]
>
> - --
> Brendan Gillatt
> brendan {at} brendangillatt {dot} co {dot} ukhttp://www.brendangillatt.co.uk
> PGP Key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup...arch=0xBACD7433
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Yes, the Index.cfm home page is cleaner while the main pages are not,
too many tables... it's on the to do list, thanks for the push...
btw, what background color do you see for all the pages?

Beauregard T. Shagnasty

2007-10-28, 7:20 pm

tatata9999@XXXXXXXXXX wrote:

> "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" wrote:
> Very very odd. take a look at,
> http://web.mytata.net:8000/myTA/scr...ts/homepage.bmp

2,304.05 KB (2,359,350 bytes) !
Please do not use bitmap images (.bmp). Use .jpg instead.

http://k75s.home.att.net/show/tata.jpg (only 109 KB)

The reason is my default background is not white. Not everyone chooses
white, so if you want to be assured of a white background, you will have
to assign it.

<style type="text/css">
body { background-color: #fff; }
</style>

>
> I know, I know, javascript is a big security concern, however, this
> damn thing provides better usability, think, think, think, talking to
> myself...

JavaScript also delivers nearly all the unwanted popups people hate,
hence the disabling. Also, never use JavaScript for navigation, as the
search engines don't see it either.

> Good if you implied ease of use as well. Do you think it delivers
> core value for time management for the college crowd?

Core value? For the site, or for your time-management software? All I
can say is that an unappealing site will attract fewer customers.

> Also, I could you some beta stuff privately if you don't mind...

No thanks.

> I'll think about that.

Think quickly. <g> Keep browsers out of quirks mode, and you'll have a
better chance of universal browser look.

> Yes, supposed so, but I have to get the point across very clearly to
> diffuse confusion.

"Home" is not supposed to return to the site's main page? That is
contrary to .. well .. every other site I've ever visited.

<snip>

>
> Please elaborate a bit on this when you have a chance...

I mean all the technical advice on how to properly write semantic
markup, how to use style sheets, how to use floats, and much more.

--
-bts
-Motorcycles defy gravity; cars just suck

tatata9999@gmail.com

2007-10-28, 11:17 pm

One thing at a time, tell me a bit on "floats" per your "how to use
floats," or a pointer. Thks.

On Oct 28, 5:35 pm, "Beauregard T. Shagnasty"
<a.nony.m...@example.invalid> wrote:
> tatata9...@XXXXXXXXXX wrote:
>
> 2,304.05 KB (2,359,350 bytes) !
> Please do not use bitmap images (.bmp). Use .jpg instead.
>
> http://k75s.home.att.net/show/tata.jpg (only 109 KB)
>
> The reason is my default background is not white. Not everyone chooses
> white, so if you want to be assured of a white background, you will have
> to assign it.
>
> <style type="text/css">
> body { background-color: #fff; }
> </style>
>
>
>
> JavaScript also delivers nearly all the unwanted popups people hate,
> hence the disabling. Also, never use JavaScript for navigation, as the
> search engines don't see it either.
>
>
> Core value? For the site, or for your time-management software? All I
> can say is that an unappealing site will attract fewer customers.
>
>
> No thanks.
>
>
> Think quickly. <g> Keep browsers out of quirks mode, and you'll have a
> better chance of universal browser look.
>
>
> "Home" is not supposed to return to the site's main page? That is
> contrary to .. well .. every other site I've ever visited.
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
> I mean all the technical advice on how to properly write semantic
> markup, how to use style sheets, how to use floats, and much more.
>
> --
> -bts
> -Motorcycles defy gravity; cars just suck

Beauregard T. Shagnasty

2007-10-28, 11:17 pm

tatata9999@XXXXXXXXXX wrote:

> One thing at a time, tell me a bit on "floats" per your "how to use
> floats," or a pointer. Thks.

<http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...w+to+use+floats>

The first hit is pretty cool.
http://www.bigbaer.com/css_tutorial...ml.tutorial.htm

--
-bts
-Motorcycles defy gravity; cars just suck

tatata9999@gmail.com

2007-10-30, 7:19 pm

On Oct 28, 8:31 pm, "Beauregard T. Shagnasty"
<a.nony.m...@example.invalid> wrote:
> tatata9...@XXXXXXXXXX wrote:
>
> <http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...w+to+use+floats>
>
> The first hit is pretty cool.http://www.bigbaer.com/css_tutorial...ml.tutorial.htm
>
> --
> -bts
> -Motorcycles defy gravity; cars just suck

Hidden treasure :)

ok, if CSS can help with defeating javascript's security hole, I'll go
for it. btw, is there anything in CSS that can minik javascript's
ability to toggle an element from invisible to visible or the float
can do it, just that I haven't read enough of it?

Thks.

Beauregard T. Shagnasty

2007-10-30, 7:19 pm

tatata9999@XXXXXXXXXX wrote:

> "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" wrote:
>
> Hidden treasure :)

Thought you would think so.

> ok, if CSS can help with defeating javascript's security hole, I'll go
> for it. btw, is there anything in CSS that can minik javascript's
> ability to toggle an element from invisible to visible or the float
> can do it, just that I haven't read enough of it?

I don't know. I have never had the occasion to want to hide something.
And I don't do JavaScript.

--
-bts
-Motorcycles defy gravity; cars just suck
Please trim sigs when replying; thanks.

Brendan Gillatt

2007-10-30, 7:19 pm

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tatata9999@XXXXXXXXXX wrote:
> On Oct 28, 8:31 pm, "Beauregard T. Shagnasty"
> <a.nony.m...@example.invalid> wrote:
>
> Hidden treasure :)
>
> ok, if CSS can help with defeating javascript's security hole, I'll go
> for it. btw, is there anything in CSS that can minik javascript's
> ability to toggle an element from invisible to visible or the float
> can do it, just that I haven't read enough of it?

display: hidden;

- --
Brendan Gillatt
brendan {at} brendangillatt {dot} co {dot} uk
http://www.brendangillatt.co.uk
PGP Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup...arch=0xBACD7433
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tatata9999@gmail.com

2007-10-30, 7:19 pm

On Oct 30, 2:38 pm, Brendan Gillatt
<brendanREMOVET...@brendanREMOVETHISgillatt.co.uk> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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>
>
>
>
>
> tatata9...@XXXXXXXXXX wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> display: hidden;
>
> - --
> Brendan Gillatt
> brendan {at} brendangillatt {dot} co {dot} ukhttp://www.brendangillatt.co.uk
> PGP Key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup...arch=0xBACD7433
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> - Show quoted text -

Probably I did not get my question across clearly. Let me use an
example for it, let's again use my site/app as one,
http://web.mytata.net:8000/myTA/index2_so.cfm
The Get Started 'link' is currently using a javascript toggle (event
trigger), the default HTML element (a table) is set to
"display:hidden", upon click, the value of the display attribute
becomes 'visible'. So, the question was/is, what do I do with CSS or
the like to replace the current javascript?

Tks.

tatata9999@gmail.com

2007-10-30, 7:19 pm

On Oct 30, 12:08 pm, "Beauregard T. Shagnasty"
<a.nony.m...@example.invalid> wrote:
> tatata9...@XXXXXXXXXX wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Thought you would think so.
>
Are you guys related?

Brendan Gillatt

2007-10-30, 7:19 pm

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tatata9999@XXXXXXXXXX wrote:
> On Oct 30, 2:38 pm, Brendan Gillatt
> <brendanREMOVET...@brendanREMOVETHISgillatt.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> tatata9...@XXXXXXXXXX wrote:
> display: hidden;
>
- - Show quoted text -
[color=darkred]
> Probably I did not get my question across clearly. Let me use an
> example for it, let's again use my site/app as one,
> http://web.mytata.net:8000/myTA/index2_so.cfm
> The Get Started 'link' is currently using a javascript toggle (event
> trigger), the default HTML element (a table) is set to
> "display:hidden", upon click, the value of the display attribute
> becomes 'visible'. So, the question was/is, what do I do with CSS or
> the like to replace the current javascript?

> Tks.

Why do you need to hide it?

When I first visited I was under the impression that the link led
somewhere. It's just plain confusing for visitors.

- --
Brendan Gillatt
brendan {at} brendangillatt {dot} co {dot} uk
http://www.brendangillatt.co.uk
PGP Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup...arch=0xBACD7433
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tatata9999@gmail.com

2007-10-30, 7:19 pm

On Oct 30, 4:49 pm, Brendan Gillatt
<brendanREMOVET...@brendanREMOVETHISgillatt.co.uk> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
>
>
>
> tatata9...@XXXXXXXXXX wrote:
>
>
> - - Show quoted text -
>
>
> Why do you need to hide it?
>
> When I first visited I was under the impression that the link led
> somewhere. It's just plain confusing for visitors.
>
> - --
> Brendan Gillatt
> brendan {at} brendangillatt {dot} co {dot} ukhttp://www.brendangillatt.co.uk
> PGP Key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup...arch=0xBACD7433
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> - Show quoted text -

WHY do you like the word, 'hide' so much? it's irritating.
As you can tell, initially making it invisible, hence, less
information, hence, less likely to confuse a new user, hence
improve usability... WHY do people think up something that DOES NOT
EXIST! I'm getting pissed!!

Brendan Gillatt

2007-10-30, 7:19 pm

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tatata9999@XXXXXXXXXX wrote:
> WHY do you like the word, 'hide' so much? it's irritating.
> As you can tell, initially making it invisible, hence, less
> information, hence, less likely to confuse a new user, hence
> improve usability... WHY do people think up something that DOES NOT
> EXIST! I'm getting pissed!!

Woah there! I'm simply advising you not to hide things from you're
visitors! Less information doesn't automagically make things less
confusing. Especially when you do something unexpected such as turn links
into things that suddenly change the layout of a page.

There's no reason to get annoyed - if you don't want my advise just
ignore what I say.

- --
Brendan Gillatt
brendan {at} brendangillatt {dot} co {dot} uk
http://www.brendangillatt.co.uk
PGP Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup...arch=0xBACD7433
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tatata9999@gmail.com

2007-10-30, 7:19 pm

On Oct 30, 5:15 pm, Brendan Gillatt
<brendanREMOVET...@brendanREMOVETHISgillatt.co.uk> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> tatata9...@XXXXXXXXXX wrote:
>
> Woah there! I'm simply advising you not to hide things from you're
> visitors! Less information doesn't automagically make things less
> confusing. Especially when you do something unexpected such as turn links
> into things that suddenly change the layout of a page.
>
> There's no reason to get annoyed - if you don't want my advise just
> ignore what I say.
>
> - --
> Brendan Gillatt
> brendan {at} brendangillatt {dot} co {dot} ukhttp://www.brendangillatt.co.uk
> PGP Key:http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup...arch=0xBACD7433
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My apologies for losing temper. But on " Especially when you do
something unexpected such as turn links
into things that suddenly change the layout of a page. ", respectfully
disagree, in my view and experience, the younger users actually
welcome new stuff, my real concern is the javascript security hole.

Rob Waaijenberg

2007-10-31, 4:16 am

tatata9999@XXXXXXXXXX schreef:
> On Oct 30, 4:49 pm, Brendan Gillatt
> <brendanREMOVET...@brendanREMOVETHISgillatt.co.uk> wrote:
>
> WHY do you like the word, 'hide' so much? it's irritating.
> As you can tell, initially making it invisible, hence, less
> information, hence, less likely to confuse a new user, hence
> improve usability... WHY do people think up something that DOES NOT
> EXIST! I'm getting pissed!!
>

Here is an example of what you might want to do:
(move your cursor over the thumbnails)

http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/photo_scroll.html

--
Rob

tatata9999@gmail.com

2007-10-31, 7:18 pm

On Oct 31, 12:59 am, Rob Waaijenberg <robwaaijenb...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> tatata9...@XXXXXXXXXX schreef:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Here is an example of what you might want to do:
> (move your cursor over the thumbnails)
>
> http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/photo_scroll.html
>
> --
> Rob- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I like it, I'll try it later, thank you.

Brendan Gillatt

2007-10-31, 7:18 pm

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tatata9999@XXXXXXXXXX wrote:
> On Oct 30, 5:15 pm, Brendan Gillatt
> <brendanREMOVET...@brendanREMOVETHISgillatt.co.uk> wrote:
> tatata9...@XXXXXXXXXX wrote:
> Woah there! I'm simply advising you not to hide things from you're
> visitors! Less information doesn't automagically make things less
> confusing. Especially when you do something unexpected such as turn links
> into things that suddenly change the layout of a page.
>
> There's no reason to get annoyed - if you don't want my advise just
> ignore what I say.
>

> My apologies for losing temper. But on " Especially when you do
> something unexpected such as turn links
> into things that suddenly change the layout of a page. ", respectfully
> disagree, in my view and experience, the younger users actually
> welcome new stuff, my real concern is the javascript security hole.

What security hole? Javascript isn't a security hole in itself.

What young users? I'd consider myself young and I really don't like links
being modified into things they aren't usually used for. If you want to
indicate that something is going to change, modify the cursor to the
regular pointer or have a drop-down icon (anything along those lines).
And that's only when page content really _needs_ to be modified.

- --
Brendan Gillatt
brendan {at} brendangillatt {dot} co {dot} uk
http://www.brendangillatt.co.uk
PGP Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup...arch=0xBACD7433
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tatata9999@gmail.com

2007-10-31, 7:18 pm