Website Design Forum - Extreme Confusion

Author

Extreme Confusion

help@osmosian.com

2006-02-20, 3:35 am

When we recently launched our website, www.osmosian.com, it was
classified by Jack Klein as "hideous" and "abusive", and by Randy
Howard as something that "looks like crap".

Others, however, said it was "nice and simple", "quite pretty", and a
"very slick" implementation of the AJAX philosophy.

We're confused. Can a woman be both unbearably ugly and delightfully
pretty at once? Of course not. So how can a web site be so?

Comments?

mbstevens

2006-02-20, 3:35 am

help@osmosian.com wrote:
> When we recently launched our website, www.osmosian.com, it was
> classified by Jack Klein as "hideous" and "abusive", and by Randy
> Howard as something that "looks like crap".
>
> Others, however, said it was "nice and simple", "quite pretty", and a
> "very slick" implementation of the AJAX philosophy.
>
> We're confused. Can a woman be both unbearably ugly and delightfully
> pretty at once? Of course not. So how can a web site be so?
>
> Comments?
>
Ever read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance?
You have the outside washed and waxed nicely, but
the internals look they've been oiled with Crisco.

There is no reason to have two pages of javascript
to support such a simple page.

Suggest you redirect your need to program to server side
solutions.

That old kind of
image map is not done in a way that is accessible.

Suggest you see:
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/imagemap/

--
mbstevens
http://www.mbstevens.com/

help@osmosian.com

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

>> The web does *not* consist of colours and fonts.

Of what, then, does a website consist?

Garmt de Vries

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

help@osmosian.com wrote:
>
> Of what, then, does a website consist?

Structured information, of course.

Whether or not this information is presented visually, and if so, with
what fonts and colours, is up to the user.

To use your own analogy:

The manufacturer builds the car, but it's up to the driver to decide
how fast he will drive. What you propose, is that the car manufacturer
should not only be allowed to choose metals and shapes, but also to
dictate your driving style, which petrol stations you should go to, and
what brand of chewing gum you should put in the glove department.

--
Garmt de Vries.

help@osmosian.com

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

Does "THIS PHRASE" strike you differently than "this one"?
Of course it does. Because the presentation of information conveys
information itself.
If I say, "Nothing MATTERS" but the user changes the font (and the
emphasis) to
"NOTHING matters", the "structured information" no longer conveys the
same meaning.
You may as well argue that tone of voice doesn't matter.

Garmt de Vries

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

h...@osmosian.com wrote:
> Does "THIS PHRASE" strike you differently than "this one"?
> Of course it does.

No, it doesn't. They sound exactly the same.

Oh wait... perhaps if I read your message on a screen instead of having
it read to me by my voice browser...

> Because the presentation of information conveys information itself.

And since you don't know what kinds of presentation are meaningful to
the user, you have to pass the structure itself to the user. He will
have his browser configured in such a way as to make a meaningful
presentation out of the structure you provide.

You rely on presentation alone, and so your meaning is lost on at least
part of your audience.

> If I say, "Nothing MATTERS" but the user changes the font (and the emphasis)
> to "NOTHING matters", the "structured information" no longer conveys the
> same meaning.

If you say, "Nothing matters", and the user has a user
stylesheets that looks like this:
* { text-transform: uppercase }
em { text-transform: lowercase }
then the structured information still conveys the same meaning *to the
user*

> You may as well argue that tone of voice doesn't matter.

Of course it matters. That's why my voice browser reads important
text with a louder volume and more stress. But it doesn't know how
to handle <blink>rubbish like
this</blink>, let alone <img src="importantinfo.gif">.

--
Garmt de Vries.

help@osmosian.com

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

Tone of voice is, to the ear, what font size and style is to the eye.
If you are suggesting that we should limit our presentations to those
things that can be experienced "equally" by the sighted and the blind,
we're afraid we can't agree. "Accessibility" and "reduction to the
least common denominator" are not the same thing.

help@osmosian.com

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

>> Hi there,[color=darkred]

You didn't answer the question: Should a graphic designer be allowed to
specify the size, shape, colors, and fonts used in his designs, or not?

Eric Lindsay

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

In article <1140390326.114134.139970@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
help@osmosian.com wrote:

> But OUR website is OUR brochure for OUR product.
> WE should be able to determine what OUR brochure looks like.

A yellow screen with an empty rectangle on it? Somehow your brochure
doesn't grab me.

--
http://www.ericlindsay.com

bren[at]gillatt.org

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

help@osmosian.com wrote:
> We don't need a "dynamic" document to describe our product. And if we
> didn't have to process credit cards, we would just put a PDF out.
>
You don't need javascript to process credit cards. What you need is
ANOTHER PAGE.
And anyway - why don't you put a PDF out and handle billing over fax or
telephone?

bren[at]gillatt.org

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

> Did DaVanci ask you what color the Mona Lisa should be?

Did DaVanci try to sell his art to a mass market through the web?

bren[at]gillatt.org

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

> The program only runs
> on a screen at least 1024 pixels wide.

WHAT? You've just about cut 25% of your market out - not everyone has a
1024px screen - I have a secondary computer with a 800x600 screen - it
runs everything else perfectly well.
If it is a true compiler it should be able to handle any size available
- I can't imagine Delphi having a problem with screen size, or for that
matter, having a screen at all.

Garmt de Vries

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

help@osmosian.com wrote:
> If you are suggesting that we should limit our presentations to those
> things that can be experienced "equally" by the sighted and the blind,
> we're afraid we can't agree.

Of course I'm not suggesting that, don't be silly. You are perfectly
free to create any design you like, with whatever fonts, colours and
shapes you think are pleasing to the eye. But it's in your best
interest to implement this design in such a way that the content is
still usable for anyone who, for whatever reason, can't enjoy your
fancy visuals.

Anyway, this discussion reappears with the tedious inevitability of an
unloved season, and some people just refuse to learn...

--
Garmt de Vries.

help@osmosian.com

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

We're not trying to sell to a "mass market". We're looking for
programmers (a small group) who are interested in compilers (an even
smaller group) who want to extend the frontiers of computer science.
Just because we're looking on the web doesn't mean we think everyone on
the web is eligible.

help@osmosian.com

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

We're into consistency.

help@osmosian.com

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

Our website is a combination of line art and text. If you can't see
both, we'd rather you see neither. Kind of like a movie director not
allowing his work to be played on the radio.

bren[at]gillatt.org

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

help@osmosian.com wrote:
> We're not trying to sell to a "mass market". We're looking for
> programmers (a small group) who are interested in compilers (an even
> smaller group) who want to extend the frontiers of computer science.
> Just because we're looking on the web doesn't mean we think everyone on
> the web is eligible.
>
I'm a programmer and I'm interested in compilers (how can you program
without a compiler?) and I want to "extend the frontiers of computer
science". That is why I use cutting edge languages on LINUX - not a
super high level language that is stuck on Windows and a screen thats
bigger than 1024pxls. What your doing is just making a language that
just pads out and overlays a good language such as java, c or whatever
you have based it on.

Programmers are not such a small group.

The Web was started by programmers - ever heard of Arpanet? That started
with languages such as ASSEMBLY and MACHINE CODE SERVERS.

help@osmosian.com

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

Sorry. It doesn't run on DOS or CP/M either.

help@osmosian.com

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

Our language is not "based on" anything. It generates machine code. All
by itself. And it was written in itself.

Darin McGrew

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

<help@osmosian.com> wrote:
> Let's ask the public:

Yeah, I'm sure that's a great way to get an intelligent answer to a
question about web design.

> Should a graphic designer be allowed to specify the size, shape, colors,
> and fonts used in his designs, or not?

First, web design isn't graphic design.

Second, a web designer is free to specify colors, fonts, etc.
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets is right next door.
--
Darin McGrew, mcgrew@stanfordalumni.org, http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, darin@htmlhelp.com, http://www.HTMLHelp.com/

"Cheaters never win; they just finish first." - Johhny Hart

Darin McGrew

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

<help@osmosian.com> wrote:
> Should a car designer be allowed to choose his shapes and metals?

Sure. But he can't control how or where it's driven, what reviewers write
about it, how its reviews are published, etc.

> Should a dress designer be allowed to choose his fabrics and dyes?

Sure. But he can't control what people do while wearing the dress, what
reviewers write about it, etc.

> Should a movie producer be allowed to choose his settings and costumes?

Sure. But he can't control the seating in the auditorium where it is shown,
the brands of snacks sold, what reviewers write about it, etc.

> Should a painter be allowed to choose his canvas size and pigments?

Sure. But he can't control the brand of light bulbs used to illuminate the
painting, what people say or write about the painting, etc.

> Should a web designer be allowed to choose his colors and fonts?

Sure. And comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets is right next door.
But this is the web, so the user has final control over the colors and
fonts used, assuming his browser even uses colors and fonts.
--
Darin McGrew, mcgrew@stanfordalumni.org, http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, darin@htmlhelp.com, http://www.HTMLHelp.com/

"Cheaters never win; they just finish first." - Johhny Hart

bren[at]gillatt.org

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

help@osmosian.com wrote:
> Our language is not "based on" anything. It generates machine code. All
> by itself. And it was written in itself.
>

So it takes none of its traits from early programming languages? no if
statements, no variables, no strings? WOW, tall order there!

Nije Nego

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

On 19 Feb 2006 15:05:26 -0800, help@osmosian.com wrote:

>
> But OUR website is OUR brochure for OUR product.
> WE should be able to determine what OUR brochure looks like.

I cannot see your brochure on web!
All I can see is pale background and a border where a picture should be.

Is that what you determined?

--
o'tom po'tom

Nije Nego

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

On 19 Feb 2006 15:12:31 -0800, help@osmosian.com wrote:

>
> And that's what we did, and are doing. When the user's window is too
> small, for example, we want him to know it. So we let our picture get
> "cut off". This tells him that if he wants to view the document as the
> designer intended, he should make his window bigger.
>

I would not dare to buy a product from you, you are just too demanding,
imposing your rules and opinions, where I do not need them.

I do not want a service that tells me I SHOULD this or that, but I would
consider a service which would tell me that I COULD.

--
o'tom po'tom

Nije Nego

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

On 20 Feb 2006 05:14:08 -0800, help@osmosian.com wrote:

> We're not trying to sell to a "mass market". We're looking for
> programmers (a small group) who are interested in compilers (an even
> smaller group) who want to extend the frontiers of computer science.

And there for they should extend their window sizes?
--
o'tom po'tom

Alan J. Flavell

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006, help@osmosian.com wrote:

> We're not trying to sell to a "mass market". We're looking for
> programmers (a small group) who are interested in compilers (an even
> smaller group) who want to extend the frontiers of computer science.

Sounds a bit like the kind of people described in
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html

> Just because we're looking on the web doesn't mean we think everyone
> on the web is eligible.

It seems you want to rule out most of the small minority that you say
you're aiming at.

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacke...o.html#believe5

Now where did I read about that recruitment system, which was designed
to attract the only eligible applicant who would be willing to comply
with the terms of the appointment? Saves a lot of work and resources
in trying to decide which applicant to employ: if applied correctly,
exactly one person will apply - and will be 100% suitable for the job.
You seem to be working towards refining a similar system for web
sites. But I'm sceptical about how successful it's going to be.

have fun

Rob

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

On 20 Feb 2006 02:50:55 -0800, help@osmosian.com wrote:

>
>You didn't answer the question: Should a graphic designer be allowed to
>specify the size, shape, colors, and fonts used in his designs, or not?

I thought my posting would indicate my position, but I don't mind
being more explicit.

First, I beg you to bear with me, for I don't think a simple yes or no
would do.

In my opinion the question should not be whether the designer is
*allowed* to specify size, shape, colors, etc. No-one's going to throw
anyone in jail for specifying these things.
The question is whether it's a wise thing to do
and a lot of people think it's not.

As other people in this thread have tried to make you see, the web is
not about trying to make websites pixel-perfect (or font-perfect, or
color-perfect). Websites are not newspapers, websites are not flyers
or books or magazines.
If you would please take the time and effort to visit the Westciv site
and read John Allsopps articles about adaptability and "the Dao of
webdesign" (among others),
http://www.westciv.com/style_master/house/good_oil/
he is one of those who represent a certain way of looking at the web.
He can voice this a lot better than I can.
(I'm not a professional webdesigner, just an amateur webmaster)

This discussion is not about being right; it's about two different
ways of looking at the web.

Rob

Matt Silberstein

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

On 19 Feb 2006 15:14:54 -0800, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.site-design , help@osmosian.com in
<1140390894.838255.285890@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:

>
>Don't be silly. The web was designed as a unix-like file transfer
>utility, and nothing more.

Where did you get that notion? The Internet, which is not the web, was
designed to work at a highly fault tolerant adaptable communication
system. File transfer is a basic mechanism of that system, but it was
not the specific goal. The *Web* was designed specifically as a way to
multiply link documents, file transfer again is a deep mechanism, but
not the goal.

>The kluge we now have is the result of
>patches, quick fixes, market-driven changes, etc. It was not "designed"
>in any meaningful sense of the word.

What large system was?

--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"

Matt Silberstein

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

On 19 Feb 2006 19:28:10 -0800, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.site-design , help@osmosian.com in
<1140406090.918428.144560@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> wrote:

>
>Wrong, wrong, wrong. Our products ARE "works of art". We labor hard to
>make them not only functional, but things of beauty. And we don't want
>to "sell to as many people as possible". That is not our goal. We want
>to advance the art and science of computer programming. If others are
>inspired by and build upon our research, it WILL increase in value over
>time. And no, we don't have to consider everyone. The program only runs
>on a screen at least 1024 pixels wide. You can't write the kind of
>programs we write on a cell phone. And we don't have to consider people
>who aren't and don't want to be programmers. It's a compiler, for God's
>sake. It's NOT for everyone.

Would any of the developers here, people who purchase and use
development tools, buy from a company with this attitude?

--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"

Matt Silberstein

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

On Mon, 20 Feb 2006 21:22:44 +0000, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.site-design , "Alan J. Flavell"
<flavell@physics.gla.ac.uk> in
<Pine.LNX.4.62.0602202050030.30345@ppepc70.ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:

>On Mon, 20 Feb 2006, help@osmosian.com wrote:
>
>
>Sounds a bit like the kind of people described in
>http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html
>
>
>It seems you want to rule out most of the small minority that you say
>you're aiming at.
>
>http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacke...o.html#believe5
>
>Now where did I read about that recruitment system, which was designed
>to attract the only eligible applicant who would be willing to comply
>with the terms of the appointment?

IIANM, _Parkinson's Law_ by C. Northcote Parkinson. Required reading
for anyone who spends time in a group larger than, say, three.

>Saves a lot of work and resources
>in trying to decide which applicant to employ: if applied correctly,
>exactly one person will apply - and will be 100% suitable for the job.
>You seem to be working towards refining a similar system for web
>sites. But I'm sceptical about how successful it's going to be.
>
>have fun
--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"

Matt Silberstein

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

On 19 Feb 2006 16:55:24 -0800, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.site-design , help@osmosian.com in
<1140396924.422333.76450@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:

>
>Are you serious? Are you really claiming that there is nothing wrong
>with a kluge of incompatible hardware devices, incompatible languages
>(HTML, JAVASCRIPT, DHTML, XML, XHTML, CSS) and incompatible standards?
>
>
>Let's ask the public: Should a graphic designer be allowed to specify
>the size, shape, colors, and fonts used in his designs, or not? We're
>not talking "[our] preconceived notions" here, we're talking COMMON
>SENSE and THE HISTORY OF PUBLISHING.

Obviously you consider Ayn Rand the last word on this topic.

--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"

Matt Silberstein

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

On 19 Feb 2006 17:52:56 -0800, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.site-design , help@osmosian.com in
<1140400376.801763.3260@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:

>
>I'm going to try one more time, and that's it. We're not talking
>"paper" here. We're talking design. Should a car designer be allowed to
>choose his shapes and metals?

They don't. Look up the history of car design some day.

> Should a dress designer be allowed to
>choose his fabrics and dyes? Should a movie producer be allowed to
>choose his settings and costumes?

Again, they don't.

>Should a painter be allowed to choose
>his canvas size and pigments?

Usually not. Did Michelangelo decide the size of the Sistine Chapel?

>Should a web designer be allowed to
>choose his colors and fonts?

Should? I would love to be able to choose fonts. I also figure I live
in this world not another.

--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"

Adrienne Boswell

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> writing in
news:b54nv11t0t8eqq848p7h5ov2cupcr6csf0@4ax.com:

> On 19 Feb 2006 19:28:10 -0800, in
> comp.infosystems.www.authoring.site-design , help@osmosian.com in
><1140406090.918428.144560@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>
> Would any of the developers here, people who purchase and use
> development tools, buy from a company with this attitude?
>

No. As a developer, believe it or not, I expect sites that have products I
might use to have clean sites that mostly validate and are accessible.
It's like going to a new doctor's office, if the front office doesn't look
clean, then I leave.

--
Adrienne Boswell
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share

Matt Silberstein

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 10:39:22 GMT, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.site-design , Adrienne Boswell
<arbpen2003@sbcglobal.net> in
<Xns97721B053F3E3arbpenyahoocom@69.28.186.121> wrote:

>Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Matt Silberstein
><RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> writing in
>news:b54nv11t0t8eqq848p7h5ov2cupcr6csf0@4ax.com:
>
>
>No. As a developer, believe it or not, I expect sites that have products I
>might use to have clean sites that mostly validate and are accessible.
>It's like going to a new doctor's office, if the front office doesn't look
>clean, then I leave.

While I think that his website is, well, a work of art compared to his
attitude. For me "functional" means doing what I want, not doing what
the artiste wants.

--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"

Alan J. Flavell

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

On Tue, 21 Feb 2006, Matt Silberstein, quoting me:

>
> IIANM, _Parkinson's Law_ by C. Northcote Parkinson.

Spot on. Thanks for reminding me ;-)

> Required reading for anyone who spends time in a group larger than,
> say, three.

Yes, and I can't honestly say that some of the committees I've had
to serve on since seemed to have learned much from it. Ho hum.

(See also the IgNobel Prize for the [fictional] discoverer of
Administratium.)

Ashmo

2006-02-24, 10:27 am

help@osmosian.com scribbled something along the lines of:
> Our website is a combination of line art and text. If you can't see
> both, we'd rather you see neither. Kind of like a movie director not
> allowing his work to be played on the radio.

Well, no.

Let's presume a visually impaired person (and there ARE visually
impaired programmers) tries to visit your website. By your logic you'd
rather not show him anything than let him let his software adapt your
brochure to his needs.

Let's presume someone is in a hurry and tries to access your website
from a mobile device (with a very small screen). By your logic you'd
rather not show him anything he could read rather than let him use his
software to display the text in a way that fits his display.

Let's presume someone who is forced to use an outdated or otherwise
cruddy browser tries to access your website, for example an employee of
a company that would potentially be interested in your product and asked
him to do research on that kind of products. By your logic you'd rather
let him stare at an empty background or your "front page" (because the
scripting wouldn't work -- maybe it's not even the browser's fault but
the company's security policy) than inform him about your product.

If you want paper, use paper. But you decided to use the medium of a
website instead.

If you want to compare it to making a movie, fine. But in that case it's
like making a movie and then not allowing it to be subtitled, translated
or released on DVD, VHS or any other format, let alone show it on TV
(remastered or not).

That's surely not how you intend to advertise your product -- and if it
is, I don't see why you bothered exposing your brochure to a medium so
incompatible with your idea. You would have been better off making it a
PDF and hosting it on your website instead of the page you created with
so much effort.

If your intention was not to create a brochure, but a piece of art that
should not be changed or shown any other way than as you intended, I can
respect that.
But you seem to intend to use it as a brochure, to sell a product. And
if that's your intention, you chose a bad solution with huge flaws.

It's not a good website if it fails to do it's job. You might as well
restrict access to users from an arbitrary U.S. state or your local
Intranet -- this would be similarly efficient.

Yours,

Ashmo