Webmaster forum - Deleting a client's website

Author

Deleting a client's website - legalities?

Bob Green

2007-03-25, 7:15 am

Greetings All:

I've built a website for my brother as a freebie and later added a website
for his buddy who he was in business with - also at no charge. Now they
have split and it's gotten nasty. Because my brother's business partner was
the owner of the intellectual rights he is now forcing my brother to remove
the website. My brother called me and told me to go ahead and pull his
site, but also wanted me to remove the site I did for his partner. Would I
be liable for a lawsuit for doing something like that? Recommendations?

Karl Groves

2007-03-25, 7:18 pm

"Bob Green" <bobgreen@bobgreen.com> wrote in
news:QPKdnZI_Fu-YyJvbnZ2dnUVZ_hOdnZ2d@trueband.net:

> Greetings All:
>
> I've built a website for my brother as a freebie and later added a
> website for his buddy who he was in business with - also at no charge.
> Now they have split and it's gotten nasty. Because my brother's
> business partner was the owner of the intellectual rights he is now
> forcing my brother to remove the website. My brother called me and
> told me to go ahead and pull his site, but also wanted me to remove
> the site I did for his partner. Would I be liable for a lawsuit for
> doing something like that? Recommendations?

The the name of this newsgroup alt.legal.advice?
What makes you think you'd be able to get qualified legal counsel here?

--
Karl Groves
http://www.thehotrodclassifieds.com

Bob Green

2007-03-25, 7:19 pm

"Karl Groves" <karl@NOSPAMkarlcore.com> wrote in message
news:Xns98FE4CACBA42karlkarlcorecom@199.45.49.11...
> "Bob Green" <bobgreen@bobgreen.com> wrote in
> news:QPKdnZI_Fu-YyJvbnZ2dnUVZ_hOdnZ2d@trueband.net:
>
>
> The the name of this newsgroup alt.legal.advice?
> What makes you think you'd be able to get qualified legal counsel here?
>
>
>
> --
> Karl Groves
> http://www.thehotrodclassifieds.com

Hey Karl:

I always turn here first for any website issues and I'm sure in this body of
webmasters, others have faced similar situations. It's a great group and I
always get good advice.

BG

Paul Watt

2007-03-25, 7:19 pm

Phil Payne

2007-03-25, 7:19 pm

On Mar 25, 12:55 pm, "Bob Green" <bobgr...@bobgreen.com> wrote:
> Greetings All:
>
> I've built a website for my brother as a freebie and later added a website
> for his buddy who he was in business with - also at no charge. Now they
> have split and it's gotten nasty. Because my brother's business partner was
> the owner of the intellectual rights he is now forcing my brother to remove
> the website. My brother called me and told me to go ahead and pull his
> site, but also wanted me to remove the site I did for his partner. Would I
> be liable for a lawsuit for doing something like that? Recommendations?

Quite likely.

http://iblsjournal.typepad.com/illi...at_your__1.html

You need serious legal advice.

DoobieDo

2007-03-25, 7:19 pm

Red E. Kilowatt

2007-03-25, 7:19 pm

Bob Green <bobgreen@bobgreen.com> wrote in message:
QPKdnZI_Fu-YyJvbnZ2dnUVZ_hOdnZ2d@trueband.net,

> Greetings All:
>
> I've built a website for my brother as a freebie and later added a
> website for his buddy who he was in business with - also at no
> charge. Now they have split and it's gotten nasty. Because my
> brother's business partner was the owner of the intellectual rights
> he is now forcing my brother to remove the website. My brother
> called me and told me to go ahead and pull his site, but also wanted
> me to remove the site I did for his partner. Would I be liable for a
> lawsuit for doing something like that? Recommendations?

I'm not a lawyer, but I like to play one in USENET. :-)

If you are hosting the site and he hasn't paid you anything for the
hosting then you are free to pull down the site anytime you want. If you
bill him first or give him notice, then you will set up a situation
where you are giving him some rights.

That's not to say that he won't sue--or at least threaten to sue, but he
won't have a case. To head off the one potential problem from this that
he could use as leverage, it would be best if you provided him with a
backup of his site on disc. Even though he didn't pay for it, you've
essentially given it to him by letting him use it all this time--at
least that would be his argument and he might get some traction with it.

To consult a competent lawyer on these issues would cost a lot more than
it's worth. Just pull down the site and give him a CD, and let it go at
that. He's not going to do anything about it.

--
Red

Red E. Kilowatt

2007-03-25, 7:19 pm

Phil Payne <phil@isham-research.co.uk> wrote in message:
1174825374.440518.82480@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com,

> On Mar 25, 12:55 pm, "Bob Green" <bobgr...@bobgreen.com> wrote:
>
> Quite likely.
>
> http://iblsjournal.typepad.com/illi...at_your__1.html
>
> You need serious legal advice.

The article is about a disgruntled former employee who deleted data on
his way out.

"...intentionally causes damage without authorization, to a protected
computer"

"In order for there to be a violation of the Act, the perpetrator must
also have engaged in "unauthorized access" of the computer in question"

That's definitely not the case here.

--
Red

Auggie

2007-03-25, 7:19 pm

"Bob Green" <bobgreen@bobgreen.com> wrote in message
news:QPKdnZI_Fu-YyJvbnZ2dnUVZ_hOdnZ2d@trueband.net...
> Greetings All:
>
> I've built a website for my brother as a freebie and later added a website
> for his buddy who he was in business with - also at no charge. Now they
> have split and it's gotten nasty. Because my brother's business partner
> was the owner of the intellectual rights he is now forcing my brother to
> remove the website. My brother called me and told me to go ahead and pull
> his site, but also wanted me to remove the site I did for his partner.
> Would I be liable for a lawsuit for doing something like that?
> Recommendations?

If you are going to take the site down your best bet would be to download
the site and burn a copy of the files to CD Rom... that way if anything does
come of all this you can just turn over the CD.

If you are hosting the website for free you should have little problem
getting out of that or moving him to a plan where you are charging him or
another hosting company.

As far as just deleting the website you have think in terms of: Who owns
this website?

If YOU own the site then there is no problem with you deleting the site. If
HE owns the website then you can't delete the site.

In that you did the website for free for the client doesn't really take away
from the fact that you did it for the client... no money might have been
exchanged but if it went to the courts he could probably argue that good
faith and/or favors were exchanged for the site design.

You probably want to stand by your brother in this, but the argument of
"He's my brother and he told me to do this" won't really hold up as a
defense in any legal action.

You also can't go back and charge the ex-partner for services rendered...
that would be based upon past performance which won't complete contract
requirements unless you specifically had an agreement to begin with where it
was stipulated that in the event he and your brother had a falling out you
would charge him.

Bob Green

2007-03-25, 7:19 pm

"Auggie" <Imperial.Palace@Rome.It> wrote in message
news:5rBNh.10432$6z3.2624@edtnps82...
>
> "Bob Green" <bobgreen@bobgreen.com> wrote in message
> news:QPKdnZI_Fu-YyJvbnZ2dnUVZ_hOdnZ2d@trueband.net...
>
> If you are going to take the site down your best bet would be to download
> the site and burn a copy of the files to CD Rom... that way if anything
> does come of all this you can just turn over the CD.
>
> If you are hosting the website for free you should have little problem
> getting out of that or moving him to a plan where you are charging him or
> another hosting company.
>
> As far as just deleting the website you have think in terms of: Who owns
> this website?
>
> If YOU own the site then there is no problem with you deleting the site.
> If HE owns the website then you can't delete the site.
>
> In that you did the website for free for the client doesn't really take
> away from the fact that you did it for the client... no money might have
> been exchanged but if it went to the courts he could probably argue that
> good faith and/or favors were exchanged for the site design.
>
> You probably want to stand by your brother in this, but the argument of
> "He's my brother and he told me to do this" won't really hold up as a
> defense in any legal action.
>
> You also can't go back and charge the ex-partner for services rendered...
> that would be based upon past performance which won't complete contract
> requirements unless you specifically had an agreement to begin with where
> it was stipulated that in the event he and your brother had a falling out
> you would charge him.

Your advice pretty much mirrors what my thoughts were about it. I'm afraid
my brother is going to have to lose this one. He will have to seek another
way to exact revenge against his unethical partner. Neither he nor I can
afford a lawsuit at this particular moment. Thank you very much for your
response.

Bob Green

2007-03-25, 7:19 pm

"Red E. Kilowatt" <redkilowattREMOVE@aww-faq.org> wrote in message
news:4606c4b0$0$4886$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Bob Green <bobgreen@bobgreen.com> wrote in message:
> QPKdnZI_Fu-YyJvbnZ2dnUVZ_hOdnZ2d@trueband.net,
>
>
> I'm not a lawyer, but I like to play one in USENET. :-)
>
> If you are hosting the site and he hasn't paid you anything for the
> hosting then you are free to pull down the site anytime you want. If you
> bill him first or give him notice, then you will set up a situation where
> you are giving him some rights.
>
> That's not to say that he won't sue--or at least threaten to sue, but he
> won't have a case. To head off the one potential problem from this that he
> could use as leverage, it would be best if you provided him with a backup
> of his site on disc. Even though he didn't pay for it, you've essentially
> given it to him by letting him use it all this time--at least that would
> be his argument and he might get some traction with it.
>
> To consult a competent lawyer on these issues would cost a lot more than
> it's worth. Just pull down the site and give him a CD, and let it go at
> that. He's not going to do anything about it.
>
> --
> Red

Hi Red:

Think I'm going to run with Auggie's advice. The guy does own his own
website - not hosted by me. See my response to him below.

BG

Bob Green

2007-03-25, 7:19 pm

"DoobieDo" <doobie@do.dah> wrote in message
news:bnuNh.77812$MR6.67234@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> "Bob Green" <bobgreen@bobgreen.com> wrote in message
> news:QPKdnZI_Fu-YyJvbnZ2dnUVZ_hOdnZ2d@trueband.net...
>
> Send them each an invoice.... how much is up to you, but I'd (personally)
> make them expensive.
>
> Therefore no sign of favouritism shown...
>
> Get your brother to pay his bill (you can always give him the money back
> in a roundabout way) and if his ex-partner doesn't pay his within the
> given time (say 7 days) pull his site in line with your terms and
> conditions - you do have T&C's?
>
>
> Otherwise, as others have said, alt.legal is down the corridor ---------->

An invoice to both of them for my time on this would certainly be in order.

Matt Probert

2007-03-26, 4:17 am

On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 07:55:02 -0400, "Bob Green"
<bobgreen@bobgreen.com> wrote:

>Greetings All:
>
>I've built a website for my brother as a freebie and later added a website
>for his buddy who he was in business with - also at no charge. Now they
>have split and it's gotten nasty. Because my brother's business partner was
>the owner of the intellectual rights he is now forcing my brother to remove
>the website. My brother called me and told me to go ahead and pull his
>site, but also wanted me to remove the site I did for his partner. Would I
>be liable for a lawsuit for doing something like that? Recommendations?
>

Bang their heads together and tell them to grow up! Or at the very
least, don't get involved.

Matt

--
Documenting the banal to the bizarre
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com

Andy Dingley

2007-03-26, 7:20 pm

On 25 Mar, 12:55, "Bob Green" <bobgr...@bobgreen.com> wrote:
> I've built a website for my brother as a freebie and later added a website
> for his buddy who he was in business with - also at no charge. Now they
> have split and it's gotten nasty. Because my brother's business partner was
> the owner of the intellectual rights he is now forcing my brother to remove
> the website. My brother called me and told me to go ahead and pull his
> site, but also wanted me to remove the site I did for his partner.

> Would I be liable for a lawsuit for doing something like that?

You're _always_ liable for a lawsuit from anyone, for anything. This
is fundamental to openness of the court system. Ideally such frivolous
suits are thrown out instantly and cheaply, but if you're ever head-to-
head with someone with deep pockets, then this can be its own problem.

You do of course have a contract for this work, don't you? It does of
course have coverage of such events, written in a manner that is at
least workable, if not actually favourable to you. Doesn't it?

If you're asking "Do I have any legal basis for my actions?", then
simply ask yourself if you do.
Doing this out of spite is not seen as the defensible actions of a
reasonable business person, and so you're likely to have little legal
defence against any action for doing it. Doing it because the other
party has acted in a way to terminate your contract and resultant
obligation to them is much more defensible. Have they acted in this
way?

If you don't have a contract, and you don't have any clear grounds for
terminating the site, then your useful options are to either keep the
site up (maybe you're getting paid for this and it's your own business
to keep doing it for profit?), or otherwise to start negotiating with
the ex-partner. Do they even want the site kept up? Will they take the
exisiting content away and host it somewhere themselves, possibly even
paying you for the privilege.

As always when negotiating, you're playing two or even three games.
What you actually want, what the legal position lets you demand, and
what you're apparently asking for. A good negotiator plays around with
#3 using the support of #2, but never loses site of #1. There's no
point in winning an argument or case like this if it actually leaves
you in a worse position in terms of what was useful to you! It's a
radical concept in lawyer-crazed USA I know, but how about just asking
each other for what you both really need? Maybe there's actually a
mutually acceptable solution that just gives you both what you need,
in the simpelst way (I guess what you both need most is simple and
clear separation, not arguing about pennies owed over hosting charges)

If you have no contract, other than a contract with your brother, then
you might be in a position where you never needed to provide the ex-
partner's site at any time and you never had any obligation towards
them in the first place. People don't magically _have_to_ go around
providing websites for others, just because they threaten to sue them
if they don't! It's near impossible to prove that because you might
have done something once, especially unpaid, you have an obligation to
continue doing it.

Otherwise wind the hosting costs up as fast as permissible, live off
the profits in the meantime and pull the site for non-payment as soon
as they default. Make it their problem to _want_ to walk away.

Karl Groves

2007-03-26, 7:20 pm

comments@probertencyclopaedia.com (Matt Probert) wrote in
news:46076332.716468@news.freenetname.co.uk:

> On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 07:55:02 -0400, "Bob Green"
> <bobgreen@bobgreen.com> wrote:
>
>
> Bang their heads together and tell them to grow up! Or at the very
> least, don't get involved.

Probably the best advice yet.

--
Karl Groves
http://www.thehotrodclassifieds.com

Alex

2007-03-26, 7:21 pm

"Bob Green" <bobgreen@bobgreen.com> wrote in message
news:QPKdnZI_Fu-YyJvbnZ2dnUVZ_hOdnZ2d@trueband.net...
> Greetings All:
>
> I've built a website for my brother as a freebie and later added a website
> for his buddy who he was in business with - also at no charge. Now they
> have split and it's gotten nasty. Because my brother's business partner
> was the owner of the intellectual rights he is now forcing my brother to
> remove the website. My brother called me and told me to go ahead and pull
> his site, but also wanted me to remove the site I did for his partner.
> Would I be liable for a lawsuit for doing something like that?
> Recommendations?
>
As many others have said, you can be sued for anything. (And, like most
others here, I'm not an attorney.) It's not clear from your message whether
you have a contract (written or oral) with either your brother or his former
partner. If so, obviously that determines what you can do. If not, as seems
likely, this is the time to create a structured agreement that allows you to
exit this situation gratefully.
Send them, separately, identical letters that say you are no longer able to
continue to provide them with web design and hosting services without
charge. Recommend at least three other competent providers who can maintain
their sites (perhaps checking first to make sure those providers can in fact
handle the partner's site.) Tell them that you will need to have the sites
removed from your server within 30 days. Provide them with a complete copy
of the site, in a ZIP file and/or on a CD, along with usernames, passwords,
and any other technical info needed to replicate the site. State that you
will cooperate fully with the new provider, but do need to have the sites
removed within the stated period.
Obviously only the partner will be affected; your brother's site is already
coming down, and if you and he choose to build another one later, that is no
one's business but yours and his. But the identical letters will be evidence
that you are actin in an even-handed manner.
If you give the former partner a reasonable opportunity to move his site
(perhaps being a bit flexible if for good reasons he cannot make a 30-day
deadline), you certainly should be in a sound legal position. Make sure you
document all of your steps -- copies of e-mails, a diary of the steps you
have taken and providers you have contacted, etc. If you mail him a CD, send
it certified mail to prove that he received it. In short, be fair and CYA.

Alex

Matt Probert

2007-03-26, 7:21 pm

On Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:04:03 GMT, "Alex"
<tuchasoffentisch@_NO_SPAM_XXXXXXXXXX> wrote:

>Send them, separately, identical letters that say you are no longer able to
>continue to provide them with web design and hosting services without
>charge. Recommend at least three other competent providers who can maintain
>their sites

Bollocks to that!

You (the original poster) did them a favour, just tell them to piss
off and take their squabble with them.

Matt

--
Documenting the banal to the bizarre
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com

NotMe

2007-03-26, 7:21 pm

"Alex"

| > Greetings All:
| >
| > I've built a website for my brother as a freebie and later added a
website
| > for his buddy who he was in business with - also at no charge. Now they
| > have split and it's gotten nasty. Because my brother's business partner
| > was the owner of the intellectual rights he is now forcing my brother to
| > remove the website. My brother called me and told me to go ahead and
pull
| > his site, but also wanted me to remove the site I did for his partner.
| > Would I be liable for a lawsuit for doing something like that?
| > Recommendations?
| >
| As many others have said, you can be sued for anything. (And, like most
| others here, I'm not an attorney.) It's not clear from your message
whether
| you have a contract (written or oral) with either your brother or his
former
| partner. If so, obviously that determines what you can do. If not, as
seems
| likely, this is the time to create a structured agreement that allows you
to
| exit this situation gratefully.
| Send them, separately, identical letters that say you are no longer able
to
| continue to provide them with web design and hosting services without
| charge. Recommend at least three other competent providers who can
maintain
| their sites (perhaps checking first to make sure those providers can in
fact
| handle the partner's site.) Tell them that you will need to have the sites
| removed from your server within 30 days. Provide them with a complete copy
| of the site, in a ZIP file and/or on a CD, along with usernames,
passwords,
| and any other technical info needed to replicate the site. State that you
| will cooperate fully with the new provider, but do need to have the sites
| removed within the stated period.
| Obviously only the partner will be affected; your brother's site is
already
| coming down, and if you and he choose to build another one later, that is
no
| one's business but yours and his. But the identical letters will be
evidence
| that you are actin in an even-handed manner.
| If you give the former partner a reasonable opportunity to move his site
| (perhaps being a bit flexible if for good reasons he cannot make a 30-day
| deadline), you certainly should be in a sound legal position. Make sure
you
| document all of your steps -- copies of e-mails, a diary of the steps you
| have taken and providers you have contacted, etc. If you mail him a CD,
send
| it certified mail to prove that he received it. In short, be fair and CYA.
|

I'd recommend you burn a CD and if you've not done so yet file a copyright
(if the US this cost $45 and can be done by mail). Might not solve the
problem but does establish who owns the work product.