Webmaster forum - A note about customer service

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A note about customer service

Matt Probert

2007-03-21, 7:21 pm

When something goes wrong, and an upset customer calls you, listen to
what they have to say. Then, apologise.

DO NOT argue with the customer and attempt to point out to the
customer that it is they who are wrong!

If that is what you really feel, say "I can only apologise and assure
you I shall look into the matter immediately".

No guesses who just an unfortunate run in with a mail order company
<g>

Matt

--
Documenting the banal to the bizarre
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com

Els

2007-03-21, 7:21 pm

Matt Probert wrote:

> DO NOT argue with the customer and attempt to point out to the
> customer that it is they who are wrong!
[snip]
> No guesses who just an unfortunate run in with a mail order company
> <g>

So, what did you do wrong then? :P

--
Els http://locusmeus.com/

Fat Sam

2007-03-21, 7:21 pm

Matt Probert wrote:
> When something goes wrong, and an upset customer calls you, listen to
> what they have to say. Then, apologise.
>
> DO NOT argue with the customer and attempt to point out to the
> customer that it is they who are wrong!

Come on maet.
Name and shame.

GreyWyvern

2007-03-21, 7:22 pm

And lo, Matt Probert didst speak in alt.www.webmaster:

> When something goes wrong, and an upset customer calls you, listen to
> what they have to say. Then, apologise.
>
> DO NOT argue with the customer and attempt to point out to the
> customer that it is they who are wrong!

I have a story too...

For the last few months I have been battling a significant overcharge on
my utility bill, and because their phone center supervisors work the same
hours I do, I usually had to call in the evenings and got representatives
who were often less than helpful; mostly because they had no one higher up
to which they could pass the call.

Well, days stretched into months, and apparently my problem exceeded the
time on their ticket calendar, because I started getting reps telling me
(some quite rudely) that I *never* called way back in November. I
*couldn't* have! It wasn't in their records. No one rep came out and
said it, but it was of course assumed that I had missed a payment several
months ago and was now lying about contacting them before payment had been
due. More than once I was scolded (literally!) for expecting changes to
be made "so soon" after contacting them.

When, one evening, a rep let slip that a supervisor was there late doing
interviews, I enthusiastically told her that I would be glad to hang on
the line for however long these "interviews" took, and talk to the
supervisor before he/she left for the evening. The rep took great pains
to tell me that it may be 45 minutes to an hour before the supervisor
would be free, and I replied that it was no problem whatsoever. I had a
speakerphone; I'd just read a book listening to the creepy hold music.
She kept trying to brush me off, and I kept telling her, in no uncertain
terms that I would wait however long it took, until *click* I was hung up
on.

Eventually, since I couldn't stand it any longer, I got the matter cleared
up over a number of lunchbreaks during my working hours; which ended up
involving the highest echelons of the collections department, including
the general manager.

There are several companies offering delivery of utilities in Canada, and
unfortunately I am locked into three more years with these clowns; I can't
get out without a steep service charge. You can be sure I won't be
renewing with them when it comes time.

Grey

--
The technical axiom that nothing is impossible sinisterly implies the
pitfall corollary that nothing is ridiculous.
- http://www.greywyvern.com/orca#search - Orca Search: Full-featured
spider and site-search engine

Fred Atkinson

2007-03-21, 7:22 pm

On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:37:17 GMT, comments@probertencyclopaedia.com
(Matt Probert) wrote:

>When something goes wrong, and an upset customer calls you, listen to
>what they have to say. Then, apologise.
>
>DO NOT argue with the customer and attempt to point out to the
>customer that it is they who are wrong!
>
>If that is what you really feel, say "I can only apologise and assure
>you I shall look into the matter immediately".
>
>No guesses who just an unfortunate run in with a mail order company
><g>
>
>Matt

Matt,

I disagree with you.

An apology is not a solution or a resolution. It is simply a
way of excusing yourself from meeting the customer's expectations. A
policy like what you describe turns the apology into a clieche'. A
customer doesn't want to hear clieches. They want results.

I don't agree that no one ever won an argument with a
customer. You win that argument by avoiding a confrontation in the
first place.

Excellent customer skills sometimes require having to suffer
letting the customer get their frustrations out. As long as they
don't use four letter words to describe me, I'll let them get it out.
I listen, ask them questions, identify the problem, and
formulate a solution.

One of my functions was to handle troubled WATS/data line
accounts. I used to handle customers who were ready to eat me alive
when I showed up. I always had them eating out of my hand before I
was done because their problems were solved.

Customers don't want apologies. They want solutions rather
than ongoing problems. For myself, I've heard so many apologies when
dealing with telephone companies, ISPs, hosting providers, and other
providers of technical goods and services that I don't want to hear
them any more. And I know that others in my position will agree with
me.

Your way may be called 'good' customer handling by lame
management people. My way is for 'excellent' customer handling. And
I see little of that in today's market.

Regards,

Fred

Dylan Parry

2007-03-21, 7:22 pm

Matt Probert wrote:

> When something goes wrong, and an upset customer calls you, listen to
> what they have to say. Then, apologise.

I can't agree here. "The customer is always right" is a draconian
attitude that should be avoided. They are *not* always right and
sometimes they need to be told this fact.

On more than one occasion I have had to explain to customers that the
reason something doesn't work as they expected was entirely due to the
poor quality of the data that *they* provided at the beginning of the
project. Data that they were told clearly was unsuitable, yet they
insisted I use.

--
Dylan Parry
http://electricfreedom.org | http://webpageworkshop.co.uk

The opinions stated above are not necessarily representative of
those of my cats. All opinions expressed are entirely your own.

Matt Probert

2007-03-21, 7:22 pm

On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:49:31 +0100, Els <els.aNOSPAM@tiscali.nl>
wrote:

>Matt Probert wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>So, what did you do wrong then? :P
>

I took my daughter to school. I was absent from 0835 until 0850.

The courier company claim they will deliver some time, within three
days! I don't think it reasonable to expect me to be housebound for up
to three days!

Further, should I now fail to collect the package within 5 days from
the depot - a 30 minute car journey each way - I will be charged 10
pounds for the company to return it to the supplier!

Matt

--
Documenting the banal to the bizarre
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com

Matt Probert

2007-03-21, 7:22 pm

On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:49:46 GMT, "Fat Sam"
<samandjanetknox@tessco.net> wrote:

>Matt Probert wrote:
>
>Come on maet.
>Name and shame.
>
>

broadbandbuyer.co.uk

Matt

--
Documenting the banal to the bizarre
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com

Matt Probert

2007-03-21, 7:22 pm

On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 10:49:16 -0400, Fred Atkinson
<fatkinson@mishmash.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 13:37:17 GMT, comments@probertencyclopaedia.com
>(Matt Probert) wrote:
>
>
>Matt,
>
> I disagree with you.
>
> An apology is not a solution or a resolution. It is simply a
>way of excusing yourself from meeting the customer's expectations. A
>policy like what you describe turns the apology into a clieche'. A
>customer doesn't want to hear clieches. They want results.
>
> I don't agree that no one ever won an argument with a
>customer. You win that argument by avoiding a confrontation in the
>first place.
>
> Excellent customer skills sometimes require having to suffer
>letting the customer get their frustrations out. As long as they
>don't use four letter words to describe me, I'll let them get it out.
> I listen, ask them questions, identify the problem, and
>formulate a solution.
>
> One of my functions was to handle troubled WATS/data line
>accounts. I used to handle customers who were ready to eat me alive
>when I showed up. I always had them eating out of my hand before I
>was done because their problems were solved.
>
> Customers don't want apologies. They want solutions rather
>than ongoing problems. For myself, I've heard so many apologies when
>dealing with telephone companies, ISPs, hosting providers, and other
>providers of technical goods and services that I don't want to hear
>them any more. And I know that others in my position will agree with
>me.
>
> Your way may be called 'good' customer handling by lame
>management people. My way is for 'excellent' customer handling. And
>I see little of that in today's market.
>

Thanks for the example of how *not* to treat people.

I return to my original point, so eloquently demonstrated by Fred,
that one should *NEVER* argue with a customer.

Matt

--
Documenting the banal to the bizarre
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com

Matt Probert

2007-03-21, 7:22 pm

On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 15:07:17 +0000, Dylan Parry
<usenet@dylanparry.com> wrote:

>Matt Probert wrote:
>
>
>I can't agree here. "The customer is always right" is a draconian
>attitude that should be avoided. They are *not* always right and
>sometimes they need to be told this fact.
>

Never.

>On more than one occasion I have had to explain to customers that the
>reason something doesn't work as they expected was entirely due to the
>poor quality of the data that *they* provided at the beginning of the
>project. Data that they were told clearly was unsuitable, yet they
>insisted I use.

They are still right. You are wrong. If you knew the data was
unsuitable you should have apologised, and refused the work.

See, never *argue* with a customer.

I was just reporting an unreliable courier company used by a supplier
so they could make a note, and take action as required. They chose to
tell me I was in the wrong. Now I don't use that supplier, it would
not have hurt to simply apologise for the inconvenience and then
ignore me <g>

Matt

--
Documenting the banal to the bizarre
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com

Dylan Parry

2007-03-21, 7:22 pm

Matt Probert wrote:

> broadbandbuyer.co.uk

It's not really them that you have a gripe with though, it's the courier
who are the ones at fault here. Drives me insane that they expect you to
take the day off work to take delivery of something :|

--
Dylan Parry
http://electricfreedom.org | http://webpageworkshop.co.uk

The opinions stated above are not necessarily representative of
those of my cats. All opinions expressed are entirely your own.

Dylan Parry

2007-03-21, 7:22 pm

Matt Probert wrote:

> They are still right. You are wrong. If you knew the data was
> unsuitable you should have apologised, and refused the work.

If I could choose to refuse customers, I would ;)

> See, never *argue* with a customer.

Heh. I have sent data back to customers hundreds of times telling them
to fix it of stuff it. I'd call that arguing <g>

> I was just reporting an unreliable courier company used by a supplier
> so they could make a note, and take action as required. They chose to
> tell me I was in the wrong. Now I don't use that supplier, it would
> not have hurt to simply apologise for the inconvenience and then
> ignore me <g>

In that situation, I'd say that you were right to complain and that the
supplier was entirely at fault for telling you that *you* were wrong.
They really should have apologised for the way the courier is treating
you and offered to contact the courier on your behalf. That's what we
would have done ;)

--
Dylan Parry
http://electricfreedom.org | http://webpageworkshop.co.uk

The opinions stated above are not necessarily representative of
those of my cats. All opinions expressed are entirely your own.

Fred Atkinson

2007-03-21, 7:22 pm

On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:08:14 GMT, comments@probertencyclopaedia.com
(Matt Probert) wrote:

>They are still right. You are wrong. If you knew the data was
>unsuitable you should have apologised, and refused the work.
>
>See, never *argue* with a customer.
>
>I was just reporting an unreliable courier company used by a supplier
>so they could make a note, and take action as required. They chose to
>tell me I was in the wrong. Now I don't use that supplier, it would
>not have hurt to simply apologise for the inconvenience and then
>ignore me <g>

I disagree. It hurts to apologize and then ignore. Your
customer will sense that in an instant and you've reduced the
likelihood to retain the account if it comes to that.

Regards,

Fred

CJM

2007-03-21, 7:22 pm

"Matt Probert" <comments@probertencyclopaedia.com> wrote in message
news:46015573.32967343@news.freenetname.co.uk...
>
> Further, should I now fail to collect the package within 5 days from
> the depot - a 30 minute car journey each way - I will be charged 10
> pounds for the company to return it to the supplier!
>

Unless that was clearly stated in the ToS or somewhere else appropriate when
you made your purchase then you are not liable.

Equally, you can remind them that they have to deliver within 28 days
otherwise they are liable. They're probably not in reality, but the threat
of the Small Claims Court usually does the trick. It will cost you £110
(max) to challenge them, and it will cost them £lots to defend themselves
with no prospect of have their costs awarded if they win.They'll know you
are bluffing, but will soon realised it's in everyone's best interests it
they re-attempt delivery at a time that is mutually convenient.

Which courier is it? City Link? They are terrible at wriggling out of doing
a proper delivery, but usually buckle when you call their bluff.

Yes, I've had lots of problems getting deliveries to my house!

CJM

Toby A Inkster

2007-03-21, 7:22 pm

Fred Atkinson wrote:

> As long as they don't use four letter words to describe me, I'll let
> them get it out.

So you would like them calling you "nice, kind, sexy, good King Fred"?

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact
Geek of ~ HTML/SQL/Perl/PHP/Python*/Apache/Linux

* = I'm getting there!

Fred Atkinson

2007-03-21, 11:28 pm

On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 16:37:07 +0000, Toby A Inkster
<usenet200703@tobyinkster.co.uk> wrote:

>Fred Atkinson wrote:
>
>
>So you would like them calling you "nice, kind, sexy, good King Fred"?

I see you're the pessimist.

Regards,

Fred

Fat Sam

2007-03-22, 7:23 pm

Matt Probert wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 14:49:31 +0100, Els <els.aNOSPAM@tiscali.nl>
> wrote:
>
>
> I took my daughter to school. I was absent from 0835 until 0850.
>
> The courier company claim they will deliver some time, within three
> days! I don't think it reasonable to expect me to be housebound for up
> to three days!
>
> Further, should I now fail to collect the package within 5 days from
> the depot - a 30 minute car journey each way - I will be charged 10
> pounds for the company to return it to the supplier!
>

You can't be charged.
Your courier company don't have a contract with you. Their contract is with
the retailer. They have absolutely no grounds to claim any money from you.
If I understand correctly, under the terms of the distance selling
regulations (DSR) the seller is responsible for the goods until they are
delivered and signed for by yourself or your appointed agent.
So if they don't get delivered to you, you are well within your rights to
demand a full refund.

Nobody Important

2007-03-22, 7:23 pm

cjmnews04@REMOVEMEyahoo.co.uk wrote in message news:<56d6k0F2875f5U1
@mid.individual.net> ...
> Equally, you can remind them that they have to deliver within 28 days=20
> otherwise they are liable. They're probably not in reality, but the threa=
t=20
> of the Small Claims Court usually does the trick. It will cost you =A3110=
=20
> (max) to challenge them, and it will cost them =A3lots to defend themselv=
es=20
> with no prospect of have their costs awarded if they win.They'll know you=
=20
> are bluffing, but will soon realised it's in everyone's best interests it=
=20
> they re-attempt delivery at a time that is mutually convenient.
>=20
>=20

We've had people try this, our first step is to counter that Small=20
Claims is not the proper venue for the underlying issue raised. We've=20
been 100% successful in moving it out of Small Claims. By just keeling=20
over to save money you may set a precedent that you really don't want=20
set.

CJM

2007-03-22, 7:23 pm

"Nobody Important" <nothere@invalid.yup> wrote in message
news:MPG.206c34d915cfd80498985c@news.newsreader.com...
>
> We've had people try this, our first step is to counter that Small
> Claims is not the proper venue for the underlying issue raised. We've
> been 100% successful in moving it out of Small Claims. By just keeling
> over to save money you may set a precedent that you really don't want
> set.

Unfortunately, Small Claims *is* precisely the place for this kind of
dispute. That's specifically what it is there for.

And in my (admittedly limited) experience, I've paid the initial £30 fee
twice, and then it goes no further because usually the company in question
either knows they are on dodgy ground or they don't know where they stand at
all (i.e they are blagging it) and don't want to risk an expensive bill. In
one case I even got an extra £20 for my inconvenience - AFAIK you will
rarely be awarded 'compensation' as such in a Small Claims Court though it
can happen.

In the case of couriers, they frequently exploit the fact that the they know
your contract is with the supplier, while the supplier tries to contend that
the issue is between you, the customer, and the courier.

BBM

2007-03-25, 11:19 pm

On Mar 21, 8:37 am, comme...@probertencyclopaedia.com (Matt Probert)
wrote:
> When something goes wrong, and an upset customer calls you, listen to
> what they have to say. Then, apologise.
>
> DO NOT argue with the customer and attempt to point out to the
> customer that it is they who are wrong!
>
> If that is what you really feel, say "I can only apologise and assure
> you I shall look into the matter immediately".
>
> No guesses who just an unfortunate run in with a mail order company
> <g>
>
> Matt

Maybe this will make you feel better:
<http://youtube.com/watch?v=Gp0HyxQv97Q>

hansBKK

2007-03-29, 7:17 am

"CJM" <cjmnews04@REMOVEMEyahoo.co.uk> wrote in
news:56f9fbF2827rnU1@mid.individual.net:

> In the case of couriers, they frequently exploit the fact that the
> they know your contract is with the supplier, while the supplier tries
> to contend that the issue is between you, the customer, and the
> courier.

Only buy from suppliers that use a customer-service oriented courier
service.

I've started having items delivered to my work location, the receptionist
signs for it and let's me know it's ready for me to pick up. . .

Matt Probert

2007-03-29, 7:19 pm

On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:45:31 +0200 (CEST), hansBKK
<aww01.100.hansbkk@spamgourmet.com> wrote:

>"CJM" <cjmnews04@REMOVEMEyahoo.co.uk> wrote in
>news:56f9fbF2827rnU1@mid.individual.net:
>
>
>Only buy from suppliers that use a customer-service oriented courier
>service.

Which was the essence of what I had discovered.

Matt

--
Documenting the banal to the bizarre
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com

CJM

2007-03-29, 7:19 pm

"hansBKK" <aww01.100.hansbkk@spamgourmet.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9902A107DE536hansbkk@194.177.96.26...
>
> I've started having items delivered to my work location, the receptionist
> signs for it and let's me know it's ready for me to pick up. . .

It's not always that simple. The vast majority of supplier I purchase from
use Royal Mail or City Link. Royal Mail are reliable enough, though they
usually end up posting a card through the door and I have to wait a few days
until I can get the the local PO which is only open when I'm at work. City
Link are variable from poor to average. And only average when the supplier
allows you issue delivery instructions ('leave with neighbour') or allow you
to post to an separate delivery address - but still too few do.

Many suppliers specify the type of service rather than the provider of
service; e.g. 'Next day delivery' rather than 'I'm afraid its City Link
again'. And even if it was transparent, where else do I go? If I've spent
weeks sourcing a product at the best price, I don't want to have to work
backwards to the 29th cheapest just because they have a different courier.

Obviously, I tend to go back to those suppliers that offer both a good price
and good delivery arrangements, but often the price premium I have to pay to
get a good courier is not worth it IMHO.

Incidently, what couriers do my fellow AWWers prefer in the UK?

Mark Goodge

2007-03-29, 7:19 pm

On Thu, 29 Mar 2007 16:13:23 +0100, CJM put finger to keyboard and
typed:

>Incidently, what couriers do my fellow AWWers prefer in the UK?

UPS are probably the best from a business recipient point of view.
Their online tracking works, they never lie about having stuff on the
van when it isn't and they'll retry delivery the next day if they do
miss you. They're not the cheapest to use when sending, though, which
probably isn't surprising.

Mark
--
Visit: http://www.MineOfUseless.info - everything you never needed to know!
"Love is a precious thing, worth the pain and suffering"

Dylan Parry

2007-03-30, 7:26 am

CJM wrote:

> Incidently, what couriers do my fellow AWWers prefer in the UK?

At work we use Delsol, but they are a local firm and only pick up from
LL postcodes - they'll deliver to anywhere though. Pretty good rates and
the service is good too.

When I'm ordering stuff online I never know who it's going to be
delivered by, even Amazon seem to have a random number table for
assigning couriers!

I've usually had good experience with Royal Mail, and the service from
Parcel Farce has improved in recent years.

Never could stand Shitty Link, who tend to not turn up - the depot
manager once delivered a parcel to me and we had a long discussion about
the chap who was supposed to deliver it. Turns out that the original
delivery driver had returned to the depot saying "no one was in" which
was a blatant lie as the delivery address was the business centre I work
in, which is open from 7am till 6pm and has reception staff present all day!

Omega Express seem to deliver on-time, as do those folk with the orange
lorries - I forget what they are called.

Which brings me to the last thought: whatever happened to White Arrow?

--
Dylan Parry
http://electricfreedom.org | http://webpageworkshop.co.uk

The opinions stated above are not necessarily representative of
those of my cats. All opinions expressed are entirely your own.

Dylan Parry

2007-03-30, 7:26 am

Dylan Parry wrote:

> as do those folk with the orange lorries - I forget what they are called.

As always, it comes straight to mind as soon as I hit the send button...
The one I'm thinking off was TNT.

--
Dylan Parry
http://electricfreedom.org | http://webpageworkshop.co.uk

The opinions stated above are not necessarily representative of
those of my cats. All opinions expressed are entirely your own.

Matt Probert

2007-03-30, 7:17 pm

On Fri, 30 Mar 2007 09:42:48 +0100, Dylan Parry
<usenet@dylanparry.com> wrote:

>Dylan Parry wrote:
>
>
>As always, it comes straight to mind as soon as I hit the send button...
>The one I'm thinking off was TNT.

A friend of mine (yes I have a couple) is a trade union rep for TNT.

If TNT try to deliver and you're out, they leave a card, but will
also, if phoned, contact the driver and ask him to redeliver if he
hasn't finished his rounds.

Which is good.

Matt

--
Documenting the banal to the bizarre
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com