Webmaster forum - OT Re: Unprofessionalism in web design

Author

OT Re: Unprofessionalism in web design

NotMe

2006-08-20, 10:36 pm

"Karl Groves"
| >
| >| >| Could be. But then he wouldn't have a reason to complain - or get
| >| >| almost $5K from her, would he?
| >| >
| >| > Getting a judgment and collecting are two different events.
| >| >
| >|
| >| A judgment - and especially an unpaid one - is a very nasty black
| >| mark on someone's credit.
| >|
| >| A $5k unpaid judgment could make or break someone's ability to get a
| >| car, a house, or a line of credit for their business.
| >
| > Take my word for it a judgment only slow things down and not by much.
| >
|
| Take my word for it, a judgment really XXXXs your credit.

Sometimes but not always as there are some fairly trivial ways around the
problem.

Think about it OJ has some serious judgments yet he does all that he wants
to do (can do more) and there is little the Simpson family can do about the
situation.

That's only one prominent example. I know personally many more that are on
the order of the $5K judgment referenced in the OP. Depending on the
jurisdiction the judgment can be made to disappear from the public record.

Jerry Stuckle

2006-08-20, 10:36 pm

NotMe wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle"
> | >>
> | >>| >| Could be. But then he wouldn't have a reason to complain - or get
> | >>| >| almost $5K from her, would he?
> | >>| >
> | >>| > Getting a judgment and collecting are two different events.
> | >>| >
> | >>|
> | >>| A judgment - and especially an unpaid one - is a very nasty black
> | >>| mark on someone's credit.
> | >>|
> | >>| A $5k unpaid judgment could make or break someone's ability to get a
> | >>| car, a house, or a line of credit for their business.
> | >>
> | >>Take my word for it a judgment only slow things down and not by much.
> | >>
> | >
> | >
> | > Take my word for it, a judgment really XXXXs your credit.
>
> | Yep, I agree, Karl. In the U.S., someone with an unpaid judgment on
> | their credit report will find it virtually impossible to get credit.
> | And the person getting the judgment can do all kinds of things to collect.
> |
> | About the only restriction is in most states you can't take their house.
> | But most everything else can be fair game.
>
> Ain't quite so simple for the judgment holder. More so as there is a lot
> that can be done on behalf of the person who has a judgment against them.
>
> Much depends on the jurisdiction and the do diligence of the person holding
> the judgment.
>
> As example in some areas the judgment has to be perfected. If this is not
> done or one step in the process is missed the judgment goes away. Other
> areas the judgment goes away over time.
>
> As example there are many things even the IRS can't touch.
>
>

I suggest you really get some better advice - or if you're getting it
from an attorney, get another attorney.

I have had a couple of people who tried to keep from paying me. One I
let go - it wasn't worth the trouble. The other I eventually got paid -
plus 1.5% per month interest. The second guy tried everything he could
to keep from paying except declaring personal bankruptcy (which OJ did).

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

NotMe

2006-08-20, 10:36 pm

"Jerry Stuckle"

| I suggest you really get some better advice - or if you're getting it
| from an attorney, get another attorney.
|
| I have had a couple of people who tried to keep from paying me. One I
| let go - it wasn't worth the trouble. The other I eventually got paid -
| plus 1.5% per month interest. The second guy tried everything he could
| to keep from paying except declaring personal bankruptcy (which OJ did).

Perhaps the dead beats in my area are smarter than those in your area?

I've been in business for over 40 years. I may be more conservative in my
selection process of who and how I do business and, as a result, have not
had the problems with collections to the extent you have.

OTOH business interest where I've had a minority participation and thus less
control in the process, have not been so lucky and the knowledge of the real
world comes not from lawyers but from the school of hard knocks.

Again, a judgment does not automatically equate to collection. Likewise an
outstanding judgment does not automatically equate to serious problems for
the defendant. Like I said it is incumbent on the judgment holder to
prefect the judgment and to keep the judgment alive over time as there are
many cracks that will allow the debtor to escape both the judgment and the
consequences.

Jerry Stuckle

2006-08-20, 10:36 pm

NotMe wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle"
>
> | I suggest you really get some better advice - or if you're getting it
> | from an attorney, get another attorney.
> |
> | I have had a couple of people who tried to keep from paying me. One I
> | let go - it wasn't worth the trouble. The other I eventually got paid -
> | plus 1.5% per month interest. The second guy tried everything he could
> | to keep from paying except declaring personal bankruptcy (which OJ did).
>
> Perhaps the dead beats in my area are smarter than those in your area?
>

I doubt it. But I am in an area with some smart attorneys.

> I've been in business for over 40 years. I may be more conservative in my
> selection process of who and how I do business and, as a result, have not
> had the problems with collections to the extent you have.
>
> OTOH business interest where I've had a minority participation and thus less
> control in the process, have not been so lucky and the knowledge of the real
> world comes not from lawyers but from the school of hard knocks.
>
> Again, a judgment does not automatically equate to collection. Likewise an
> outstanding judgment does not automatically equate to serious problems for
> the defendant. Like I said it is incumbent on the judgment holder to
> prefect the judgment and to keep the judgment alive over time as there are
> many cracks that will allow the debtor to escape both the judgment and the
> consequences.
>
>
>
>

I've only been in business for 16 years. And I've had a couple of
problems. But I also have some very good (and expensive) attorneys.

No one here ever said judgment equated to collection. However, if you
have a judgment, the only way they can avoid collection is by filing for
bankruptcy.

The longest I ever had was an insurance judgment back in 82 (someone
working on my house cause a fire and had let his insurance lapse).
Ended up with a $13K judgment which took over 12 years to collect - with
interest. The judgment was entered in 1985 and we didn't collect until
1997. But collect we did - when he tried to sell his house.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================

NotMe

2006-08-21, 6:52 pm

"Jerry Stuckle"
| >
| > Perhaps the dead beats in my area are smarter than those in your area?
|
| I doubt it. But I am in an area with some smart attorneys.

In my experience they work both sides of the fence, often at the same time
but for different clients.

| > I've been in business for over 40 years. I may be more conservative in
my
| > selection process of who and how I do business and, as a result, have
not
| > had the problems with collections to the extent you have.
| >
| > OTOH business interest where I've had a minority participation and thus
less
| > control in the process, have not been so lucky and the knowledge of the
real
| > world comes not from lawyers but from the school of hard knocks.
| >
| > Again, a judgment does not automatically equate to collection. Likewise
an
| > outstanding judgment does not automatically equate to serious problems
for
| > the defendant. Like I said it is incumbent on the judgment holder to
| > prefect the judgment and to keep the judgment alive over time as there
are
| > many cracks that will allow the debtor to escape both the judgment and
the
| > consequences.
|
| I've only been in business for 16 years. And I've had a couple of
| problems. But I also have some very good (and expensive) attorneys.

Which is a reminder that time and resources expended toward collection are
not earning income only protecting income earned in the past. While
emotionally satisfying the end game ROI is poor.

| No one here ever said judgment equated to collection. However, if you
| have a judgment, the only way they can avoid collection is by filing for
| bankruptcy.

If the plaintiff has no assets to go after or the assets are protected. As
example physicians that don't have med mal insurance and hold all assets in
other's name such as a spouse. In some states there is a homestead exemption
and if the property is sold the proceeds up to that exemption are protected
for creditors. Retirement is likewise protected (See OJ) as are, very
often, assets in a trust. Some income such as social security is judgment
proof.

| The longest I ever had was an insurance judgment back in 82 (someone
| working on my house cause a fire and had let his insurance lapse).
| Ended up with a $13K judgment which took over 12 years to collect - with
| interest. The judgment was entered in 1985 and we didn't collect until
| 1997. But collect we did - when he tried to sell his house.

Land sale at a later date is a good resolution but not hard and fast. I
know of instances involving property with substantial value were the debtor
divorced the spouse who gained the property as part of the divorce and later
remarried the debtor but kept the property outside the second marriage.

This is the case in Florida and to a lesser extent in Texas. Louisiana
works under the Code Napoleon which is outside the UCC.

As for our studio we copyright EVERYTHING and the contract states that the
use license is predicated on full payment. No payment no license, no use
and the DCMA comes into play. Additionally under the terms of our contacts
the our exposures is limited to at worst 1/3 of the project contract price.
We've followed the same SOP for web work as we do for our core business.

Two web sites that you may find interesting: www.no-spec.com and
www.gag.org the latter has a hand book, 'Pricing and Ethical Practices" for
$34.95 http://gag.org/pegs/index.php which can be sourced from Barnes and
Nobles for 10% off.

I'm surprised that web designers don't use the same basic contract terms
used by graphic artist as there are deep parallels in the two business
models.

Jerry Stuckle

2006-08-21, 6:52 pm

NotMe wrote:
> "Jerry Stuckle"
> | >
> | > Perhaps the dead beats in my area are smarter than those in your area?
> |
> | I doubt it. But I am in an area with some smart attorneys.
>
> In my experience they work both sides of the fence, often at the same time
> but for different clients.
>

That's true. But when I'm paying my attorney, he's working for me.

> | > I've been in business for over 40 years. I may be more conservative in
> my
> | > selection process of who and how I do business and, as a result, have
> not
> | > had the problems with collections to the extent you have.
> | >
> | > OTOH business interest where I've had a minority participation and thus
> less
> | > control in the process, have not been so lucky and the knowledge of the
> real
> | > world comes not from lawyers but from the school of hard knocks.
> | >
> | > Again, a judgment does not automatically equate to collection. Likewise
> an
> | > outstanding judgment does not automatically equate to serious problems
> for
> | > the defendant. Like I said it is incumbent on the judgment holder to
> | > prefect the judgment and to keep the judgment alive over time as there
> are
> | > many cracks that will allow the debtor to escape both the judgment and
> the
> | > consequences.
> |
> | I've only been in business for 16 years. And I've had a couple of
> | problems. But I also have some very good (and expensive) attorneys.
>
> Which is a reminder that time and resources expended toward collection are
> not earning income only protecting income earned in the past. While
> emotionally satisfying the end game ROI is poor.
>

Not all the time. There are times a short letter from an attorney
(which doesn't cost much) is all you need. Other times you have to go
to court - small claims works fine if you're within the limit. And if
it's much beyond the limit it's worth going to "big court" to get the
judgment.

> | No one here ever said judgment equated to collection. However, if you
> | have a judgment, the only way they can avoid collection is by filing for
> | bankruptcy.
>
> If the plaintiff has no assets to go after or the assets are protected. As
> example physicians that don't have med mal insurance and hold all assets in
> other's name such as a spouse. In some states there is a homestead exemption
> and if the property is sold the proceeds up to that exemption are protected
> for creditors. Retirement is likewise protected (See OJ) as are, very
> often, assets in a trust. Some income such as social security is judgment
> proof.
>

That's not always the case, either. It depends on your state laws. And
you can still attach his practice.

There are very few who don't have assets. And if they don't, there's
always the possibility of criminal fraud. For instance, if the client
knowingly contracted with you do to something but didn't have the assets
to pay up. You'd be surprised how quickly someone will find assets when
faced with jail time.

> | The longest I ever had was an insurance judgment back in 82 (someone
> | working on my house cause a fire and had let his insurance lapse).
> | Ended up with a $13K judgment which took over 12 years to collect - with
> | interest. The judgment was entered in 1985 and we didn't collect until
> | 1997. But collect we did - when he tried to sell his house.
>
> Land sale at a later date is a good resolution but not hard and fast. I
> know of instances involving property with substantial value were the debtor
> divorced the spouse who gained the property as part of the divorce and later
> remarried the debtor but kept the property outside the second marriage.
>

No, but the point is - you can get it. And there are ways to collect in
the example you mentioned, also - for instance, by proving the divorce
was only to get out of paying the bill. Additionally, if the judgment
was incurred before the divorce, you can generally still attach the
property. Divorce does not cancel debts.

> This is the case in Florida and to a lesser extent in Texas. Louisiana
> works under the Code Napoleon which is outside the UCC.
>

I don't know about those specific states. I do know about several
others where I have lived and/or done business.

> As for our studio we copyright EVERYTHING and the contract states that the
> use license is predicated on full payment. No payment no license, no use
> and the DCMA comes into play. Additionally under the terms of our contacts
> the our exposures is limited to at worst 1/3 of the project contract price.
> We've followed the same SOP for web work as we do for our core business.
>

That's fine. It doesn't work for every type of business, however. And
even if they don't have a license - are you going to try to go after
them for a DMCA violation? Chances are it will be cheaper to collect
the judgment.

> Two web sites that you may find interesting: www.no-spec.com and
> www.gag.org the latter has a hand book, 'Pricing and Ethical Practices" for
> $34.95 http://gag.org/pegs/index.php which can be sourced from Barnes and
> Nobles for 10% off.
>

Thanks, but I don't need internet legal advice. I have a good attorney
to ensure I get accurate advice.

> I'm surprised that web designers don't use the same basic contract terms
> used by graphic artist as there are deep parallels in the two business
> models.
>
>
>

Some do, some don't. It depends on a lot of factors.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================