Webmaster forum - Re: question: making space between my table and text wrapping around it..

Author

Re: question: making space between my table and text wrapping around it..

TechnoHippie

2006-04-28, 4:20 am

Helen Martin <hrmartin@nospam.uniserve.com> wrote in news:125330640phve33
@corp.supernews.com:

> I've just created a menu device on one side of my main page using a
> table with a differnt colour background.. (this after reading advice in
> this group not to use graphics for navigation links)
>
> I'm not quite happy with it though, because the text on my site sits
> right up against the table.. I'd like a few pixels between the table and
> the text..
>
> Anything I've tried doing to the table extends the background colour
> toward the text.. (cell padding etc..)
>
> hope you can point me in the right direction
>
> ?? paragraph indents
> something with the class tag?
>

Use cell spacing and border="0" or you could use a margin attribute in css.

Judy
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Mark Parnell

2006-04-28, 4:20 am

Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, Helen Martin
<hrmartin@nospam.uniserve.com> declared in alt.www.webmaster:

> I've just created a menu device on one side of my main page using a
> table with a differnt colour background.. (this after reading advice in
> this group not to use graphics for navigation links)

You must have missed the bit about not using tables for layout. :-)

> I'm not quite happy with it though, because the text on my site sits
> right up against the table.. I'd like a few pixels between the table and
> the text..

In your CSS add margin-right on the table or margin-left on the content.

--
Mark Parnell
My Usenet is improved; yours could be too:
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Mark Parnell

2006-04-28, 4:21 am

Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, Helen Martin
<hrmartin@nospam.uniserve.com> declared in alt.www.webmaster:

[tables for layout]
> actually... I'd read that somewhere else but I didn't really get why it
> isn't a good idea,

Because tables are for tabular data (hence the name). HTML is a markup
language - it describes the structure of the content. Presentation
should be completely separate.
http://www.sessions.edu/faculty/int..._ReasonsCSS.asp

> and I don't know what the alternative would be??

CSS.

> once I'd decided not to use graphic buttons that is.. what alse could I
> do to make these links in a list like this..?

You just answered yourself - use a list. :-) Don't have time right now
to do a demo for you sorry, but http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/
should give you a starting point.
http://css.maxdesign.com.au/listamatic/vertical16.htm in particular
looks very similar to what you are aiming for.

Otherwise ask Els - she should be along shortly. :-)

> hmm.. I actually tried that.. on the table.. but spelled it wrong, it
> didn't work,

<g> You obviously didn't try validating the CSS... ;-)

> so i thought I'd done something wrong.. aarrgg..

Well, you were right - you had done something wrong. :-)

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Mark Parnell
My Usenet is improved; yours could be too:
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Swampy Bogtrotter

2006-04-28, 7:05 pm

Helen Martin wrote:
> I've just created a menu device on one side of my main page using a
> table with a differnt colour background.. (this after reading advice
> in this group not to use graphics for navigation links)

It isn't entirely evil....I often use images for navigation buttons.....But
I always include good alt text, and also a text only navigation at the
bottom of each page.....

> I'm not quite happy with it though, because the text on my site sits
> right up against the table.. I'd like a few pixels between the table
> and the text..

You could introduce an extra cell in the table, only a few pixels wide, and
containing nothing at all....

Matt Probert

2006-04-28, 7:05 pm

On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 00:08:10 -0700, Helen Martin
<hrmartin@nospam.uniserve.com> wrote:

>
>actually... I'd read that somewhere else but I didn't really get why it
>isn't a good idea, and I don't know what the alternative would be??

Simple tables are excellent for layout. They resize well, adapting to
individual client font sizes and viewport windows.

An alternative, is to use CSS positioning which doesn't resize well,
and doesn't adapt well to individual client font sizes and viewport
windows.

The issue with tables, is that frequently they are deeply nested, and
as such take a long time for the client browser to render.

In all events, beware of using absolute dimensions and coordinates,
such as "100 px" for example

Matt

--
Veritas Vincti
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com

Matt Probert

2006-04-28, 7:05 pm

On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 17:24:22 +1000, Mark Parnell
<webmaster@clarkecomputers.com.au> wrote:

>Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, Helen Martin
><hrmartin@nospam.uniserve.com> declared in alt.www.webmaster:
>
>[tables for layout]
>
>Because tables are for tabular data (hence the name). HTML is a markup
>language - it describes the structure of the content. Presentation
>should be completely separate.

Not so. As proven by HTML always containing "markup" commands,. such
as <h1>, <b>, <i>, <ul> &c. The clue's in the name.

CSS, provides an extension to HTML to suggest, I must restress that
SUGGEST, "style" to HTML markup commands. So, for example the weight
implied by the bold tag <b> may be suggested differently using CSS, or
the relative size of the font used to display an <h1> header.

CSS does include some positioning commands, but these are ropey at
best, and not very portable.

Matt

--
Veritas Vincti
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com

William Tasso

2006-04-28, 7:05 pm

Fleeing from the madness of the ntlworld News Service jungle
Swampy Bogtrotter <samandjanetknox@tessco.net> stumbled into
news:alt.www.webmaster
and said:

> ...
> You could introduce an extra cell in the table, only a few pixels wide,
> and
> containing nothing at all....

ugh - go wash out your mouth with soap.

--
William Tasso

http://williamtasso.com/words/what-is-usenet.asp

Dylan Parry

2006-04-28, 7:05 pm

Pondering the eternal question of "Hobnobs or Rich Tea?", William Tasso
finally proclaimed:

Or alternatively you could make effective use of padding and margin in
some nifty looking CSS!
[color=darkred]
> ugh - go wash out your mouth with soap.

Indeed. Might I suggest carbolic soap? ;)

--
Dylan Parry
http://webpageworkshop.co.uk -- FREE Web tutorials and references

Swampy Bogtrotter

2006-04-28, 7:06 pm

Dylan Parry wrote:
> Pondering the eternal question of "Hobnobs or Rich Tea?", William
> Tasso finally proclaimed:
>
>
> Or alternatively you could make effective use of padding and margin in
> some nifty looking CSS!
>
>
> Indeed. Might I suggest carbolic soap? ;)

Ooh, I can smell it.....

GreyWyvern

2006-04-28, 7:06 pm

And lo, Dylan Parry didst speak in alt.www.webmaster:

> Pondering the eternal question of "Hobnobs or Rich Tea?", William Tasso
> finally proclaimed:
>
>
> Indeed. Might I suggest carbolic soap? ;)

I had it once. I forget what it was about, only that we were on vacation
at the time.

Grey

Charles Sweeney

2006-04-28, 7:06 pm

Jim Moe wrote

> Matt Probert wrote:
> Simply not true.
> If you expect CSS to perform just like table-based layout, you will
> be
> disappointed. CSS is designed for the realities of the WWW, browsers
> and HTML. CSS, amazingly, is different than table layout and inline
> styling ("tag soup").
> Table layouts are an attempt to impose print-based layout techniques
> onto a medium that supports it poorly. Tables offered designers a tool
> that made fairly sophisticated layouts possible. CSS exceeds tables
> for layout in almost all ways.
>
> They are also a greater maintenance burden.
> Sites that have used HTML for markup and CSS for presentation are
> usually smaller in size, easier to code, easier to maintain, and much
> easier to change the appearance.

There are no absolutes here. Sometimes a table is better, sometimes CSS
is better.

--
Charles Sweeney
http://CharlesSweeney.com

Mark Parnell

2006-04-30, 10:49 pm

Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, Matt Probert
<www@probertencyclopaedia.com> declared in alt.www.webmaster:
> On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 17:24:22 +1000, Mark Parnell
> <webmaster@clarkecomputers.com.au> wrote:
>
>
> Not so. As proven by HTML always containing "markup" commands,.

Apart from the fact that HTML does not contain any commands, what would
you expect a markup language to contain, other than markup elements?

> such as <h1>

Headings are part of the structure of a document.

> <b>, <i>,

These 2 are somewhat of a grey area. Italics at least could be
considered a part of the content in some situations, such as when
listing genus and species, or a ship name.

> <ul> &c. The clue's in the name.

Lists also describe the structure.

> CSS, provides an extension to HTML to suggest, I must restress that
> SUGGEST, "style" to HTML markup commands.

Absolutely.

> So, for example the weight
> implied by the bold tag <b> may be suggested differently using CSS,

And what does <b> mean to e.g. an aural "browser"?

> or
> the relative size of the font used to display an <h1> header.

Exactly - the header is the content, the font size is the presentation.

> CSS does include some positioning commands, but these are ropey at
> best, and not very portable.

The fact that many developers use it every day doesn't seem to support
that assertion.

--
Mark Parnell
My Usenet is improved; yours could be too:
http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html

Mark Parnell

2006-04-30, 10:49 pm

Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, Matt Probert
<www@probertencyclopaedia.com> declared in alt.www.webmaster:

> Simple tables are excellent for layout. They resize well, adapting to
> individual client font sizes and viewport windows.

In some situations.

> An alternative, is to use CSS positioning which doesn't resize well,
> and doesn't adapt well to individual client font sizes and viewport
> windows.

Only if not used correctly.

> In all events, beware of using absolute dimensions and coordinates,
> such as "100 px" for example

No arguments there.

--
Mark Parnell
My Usenet is improved; yours could be too:
http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html

Mark Parnell

2006-04-30, 10:49 pm

Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, Matt Probert
<www@probertencyclopaedia.com> declared in alt.www.webmaster:

> There is one absolute. A lack of understanding of CSS is fairly
> universal.

Which is why so many people find it easy to write it off - they don't
understand it, or how to use it properly. Not saying I'm an expert by
any means of course.

> Tables and CSS are not alternatives.

No, they are both useful tools but for completely different things -
tables for marking up tabular data, CSS for suggesting styling for a
page.

--
Mark Parnell
My Usenet is improved; yours could be too:
http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html

Mark Parnell

2006-04-30, 10:49 pm

Deciding to do something for the good of humanity, Swampy Bogtrotter
<samandjanetknox@tessco.net> declared in alt.www.webmaster:

> It isn't entirely evil....I often use images for navigation buttons.....But
> I always include good alt text, and also a text only navigation at the
> bottom of each page.....

Images can't be resized though if the text is too small (at least not in
most browsers).

--
Mark Parnell
My Usenet is improved; yours could be too:
http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html