Webmaster forum - When are you a spammer?

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When are you a spammer?

gene

2006-04-20, 7:29 pm

We send out about 3000 Emails a month to the same subcriber list we have, but
wondered if our hosting company would consider that spam?

If we buy a list and send out some Emails to say hello and look for new
subscribers, are we spamming?

Thanks!

Swampy Bogtrotter

2006-04-20, 7:29 pm

gene wrote:
> We send out about 3000 Emails a month to the same subcriber list we
> have, but wondered if our hosting company would consider that spam?
>
> If we buy a list and send out some Emails to say hello and look for
> new subscribers, are we spamming?
>
> Thanks!

I'd say yes, but you'll probably find that opinions vary.....

Personally, I regard it as spam if the recipient hasn't subscribed to your
mailing service......

If you buy an email list, can you vouch for the methods used to compile the
list?....

--
http://www.eshopdepot.co.uk
http://search.ebay.co.uk/_W0QQsassZ...gtrotterQQhtZ-1
http://www.samandjanet.co.uk

David Dorward

2006-04-20, 7:29 pm

gene wrote:

> We send out about 3000 Emails a month to the same subcriber list we have,
> but wondered if our hosting company would consider that spam?

If all the users signed up with you, then probably not - but discuss it with
your provider first (3000 emails going out unexpectedly is something that
should trigger alarm bells).

> If we buy a list and send out some Emails to say hello and look for new
> subscribers, are we spamming?

Almost certainly yes. At *best* you have no way of proving that the company
who sold you the list has the agreement of the people on it to sell their
addresses.

--
David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
Home is where the ~/.bashrc is

arccos

2006-04-20, 7:29 pm

gene wrote:
> We send out about 3000 Emails a month to the same subcriber list we have, but
> wondered if our hosting company would consider that spam?
>
> If we buy a list and send out some Emails to say hello and look for new
> subscribers, are we spamming?
>
> Thanks!

If you're buying or renting a list, chances are it's spamming. If it's
a list of people who have asked a third party to be sent your type of
information, then I would not consider it spam, but enough complaints
to your provider will get you cut off. Since you're buying the list,
you probably cannot identify and proove when this email address signed
up, and what they signed up for. It's a gray line you do not want to be
caught on the wrong end of.

I'm hoping that isn't 3000 emails per email address, and that it's a
list of 3000 addresses instead. :-)

As a suggestion, there are many of ways to advertise inexpensively on
the 'net, both inside and outside "of the box". Here are a few:
- Banner/Text ads on a content website
- Text ads on a content newsletter
- Put your business in your newsgroup signature (see below for my
example)
- Link exchange with similar websites
- Create a game, funny story, video, or whatever that is entertaining
and promotes your business, and post to the web

There are a ton of other ways, but those work well for almost any
business.

Arccos

----
http://www.landoflyrics.com - Lyrics for your favorite songs

Tony

2006-04-20, 11:41 pm

gene wrote:
> We send out about 3000 Emails a month to the same subcriber list we have, but
> wondered if our hosting company would consider that spam?

The volume might make them take notice. If these are people who chose to
receive your mailing, then IMO it's not spam

> If we buy a list and send out some Emails to say hello and look for new
> subscribers, are we spamming?

In that case, yes, indeed, you are spamming. In fact, I think that
pretty well fits even the most narrow definition - unsolicited
commercial email.

Viper

2006-04-20, 11:41 pm

gene wrote:

> If we buy a list and send out some Emails to say hello and look for
> new subscribers, are we spamming?
>
Yes that would get you reported for spam.

trevor

2006-04-20, 11:41 pm

gene wrote:

> We send out about 3000 Emails a month to the same subcriber list we have,
> but wondered if our hosting company would consider that spam?
>

purists believe that ALL unsolicited emails are spam. this outlook makes any
and all email marketing impossible unless 'embedded' in 'legitimate'
communication with existing customers.

> If we buy a list and send out some Emails to say hello and look for new
> subscribers, are we spamming?
>

yup. purchasing lists for snail mail is fine. purchasing email lists is bad
by any standard. that's not to say that it can't be utilized to good
commercial effect, but there is some line-drawing to do here. for these
answers, you must look inside.

> Thanks!

bet you wished you hadn't asked.

Ken Sims

2006-04-21, 5:53 am

Hi Gene -

On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:08:34 GMT, gene <onlyme@yahoo.com> wrote:

>We send out about 3000 Emails a month to the same subcriber list we have, but
>wondered if our hosting company would consider that spam?

That depends.

>If we buy a list and send out some Emails to say hello and look for new
>subscribers, are we spamming?

Yes. Don't do it.

--
Ken
http://www.kensims.net/

Mark Goodge

2006-04-21, 5:54 am

On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:08:34 GMT, gene put finger to keyboard and
typed:

>We send out about 3000 Emails a month to the same subcriber list we have, but
>wondered if our hosting company would consider that spam?

Spam has very little to do with quantity (other than the minimum level
needed to meet the "bulk" aspect of "unsolicited bulk email") and
everything to do with consent. If you send a mailing to 10 people who
haven't signed up for it, it's spam. if you send a mailing to 10,000
people who have signed up for it, it's not spam. I work for an
organisation which regularly sends out mailings much biger than this,
and they're not spam - all the recipients have explicitly signed up to
receive them.

The important thing is to ensure that all the recipients have
consented to receive mailings. The most reliable way of doing that is
by means of "subscribe + confirm" list management, so that people
can't either subscribe unknowingly or subscribe someone else's address
instead of their own. If you can guarantee this, then you're not
spamming. (Although some people, particularly AOL users, will forget
that they subscribed and report it as spam anyway. So you need a
mechanism for dealing with this).

>If we buy a list and send out some Emails to say hello and look for new
>subscribers, are we spamming?

That depends entirely on the origin of the list. There are
legitimately traded lists of email addresses, usually gathered from
sites which require visitors to sign up to a tradable list as a
condition for getting access to their content. So, if you get one of
these, it isn't spam to use it.

But there are two big problems with using traded lists. The first is
that it's hard to be sure of the authenticity of it - and using a list
which isn't 100% confirmed subscribers makes you a spammer, even if an
unwitting one. So you need to know where the list came from, and how
the addresses were collected, before using it. But authenticity costs
money - expect to pay a premium for a confirmed list from a reputable
supplier, and steer well clear of anything that appears to be too good
value to be true or where the suplier isn't entirely upfront about
what they do.

The other big problem with traded lists is that many people who sign
up to sites that generate them do so in the knowldege that their
address will be traded, and thus use a throwaway or tagged address to
do so - their list subscription gets them access to the site, but they
have no intention of reading any of the mailings that subsequently get
sent to their signup address. So the list is not only expensive, but
unreliable.

Personally, I don't think that using traded lists are worth it, in the
vast majority of cases. The cost of an authenticated list will be too
high, but the potential costs of using an unauthenticated list are
even higher - it only takes one dubious address on the list to get you
listed as a spammer, and that's too big a risk to take.

Mark
--
Visit: http://www.MotorwayServices.info - read and share comments and opinons
Listen: http://www.goodge.co.uk/files/dweeb.mp3 - you'll love it!

Mark Goodge

2006-04-21, 5:54 am

On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:57:20 -0700, trevor put finger to keyboard and
typed:

>gene wrote:
>
>
>purists believe that ALL unsolicited emails are spam. this outlook makes any
>and all email marketing impossible unless 'embedded' in 'legitimate'
>communication with existing customers.

That's not entirely true. The purist rule is that spam consists of
Unsolicited Bulk Email, with the "Bulk" part referring to mass
mailings from a list rather than an individual human-to-human
communication. It isn't spam to sit in front of your computer, fire up
Outlook (or your mail client of choice) and write an email to someone
you've never previously communicated with. It is spam to take an
address and add it to a mailing list system without the address
owner's consent.

And the fact that spam is unsolicted mail doesn't make email marketing
impossible. A lot of organisations maintain mailing lists consisting
of addresses that have been voluntarily subscribed for the purposes of
receiving news and information. I help run such a list that has over
50,000 addresses on it. If what you're offering is interesting enough,
people will sign up to a mailing list about it. But if it isn't
interesting enough, then spamming isn't going to make them interested.

Mark
--
Blog: http://mark.goodge.co.uk Photos: http://www.goodge.co.uk
Listen: http://www.goodge.co.uk/files/dweeb.mp3 - you'll love it!

Blinky the Shark

2006-04-21, 5:54 am

Mark Goodge wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:57:20 -0700, trevor put finger to
> keyboard and typed:
>
>
> That's not entirely true. The purist rule is that spam consists
> of Unsolicited Bulk Email, with the "Bulk" part referring to
> mass mailings from a list rather than an individual
> human-to-human communication. It isn't spam to sit in front of

Okay, if you're going to narrow the field that way, I'll broaden
it back to where it belongs by bringing up UCE -- Unsolicited
Commercial Mail. Now we're where we should be -- even if the
numbers are small, if it's unsolicited and commercial it's UCE
spam even though it's not UBE spam.

--
Blinky
Kill-filing all posts from Google Groups
Details: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html

dingbat@codesmiths.com

2006-04-21, 5:54 am

gene wrote:

> If we buy a list and send out some Emails to say hello and look for new
> subscribers, are we spamming?

Depends on the list.

Not only that, but some (potentially good customers) will always
complain about receiving your email. Personally I'd only regard sending
these out as wise (i.e. I'd do it, not that I consider everything else
as pure spam) _if_ I knew _why_ these prospects had arrived on the
list, and that I had good confidence in the list vendor's accuracy for
this. I'd also much prefer to include this information in the email
itself (most vendors wouldn't permit this, but you might have captured
your own list and be cross-selling on the basis).

Basically just think about how the customers will react when they get
it.

Karl Groves

2006-04-21, 7:15 pm

gene <onlyme@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:5f1g42djitg5r2g1th12caka5hdvuqj2qu@4ax.com:

> We send out about 3000 Emails a month to the same subcriber list we
> have, but wondered if our hosting company would consider that spam?

Ask the hosting company.
At one time, I had a site that had around 4000 members on the mailing list.
I changed hosts and while I was shopping for hosts, I made sure I asked.
Most hosts were cool. The response from most was "As long as they signed
themselves up for the list voluntarily, it is OK".

> If we buy a list and send out some Emails to say hello and look for
> new subscribers, are we spamming?

The short answer is "Yes". Still, you might want to ask more clearly HOW
the people got on the list. In some instances, people may have clicked
"Yes" to an option on a site that said "May we sign you up to receive
offers from us and our business partners". Loosely defined, "business
partners" often really means "whoever we sell our list to". Check the
privacy policy of the list provider too.

In most cases, the list you purchased is likely to come from people who DID
NOT ask to be signed up, but your case might be different.

--
Karl Groves
http://karlcore.com
http://chevelle.karlcore.com

Accessibility Discussion List: http://smallerurl.com/?id=6p764du

Tony

2006-04-21, 7:15 pm

Blinky the Shark wrote:
> Mark Goodge wrote:
>
>
> Okay, if you're going to narrow the field that way, I'll broaden
> it back to where it belongs by bringing up UCE -- Unsolicited
> Commercial Mail. Now we're where we should be -- even if the
> numbers are small, if it's unsolicited and commercial it's UCE
> spam even though it's not UBE spam.

I remember once when I thought of sitting down and sending out personal
emails to a list of maybe 20-30 people from a membership list in an
organization I was part of.

Then I thought again - that would be unsolicited email, and since it was
of a commercial nature (letting them know about my services) it would be
UCE - and I decided I didn't want to be a spammer.

I decided to find other ways to reach those people.

Mark Goodge

2006-04-21, 7:15 pm

On 21 Apr 2006 09:18:29 GMT, Blinky the Shark put finger to keyboard
and typed:

>Mark Goodge wrote:
>
>
>Okay, if you're going to narrow the field that way, I'll broaden
>it back to where it belongs by bringing up UCE -- Unsolicited
>Commercial Mail. Now we're where we should be -- even if the
>numbers are small, if it's unsolicited and commercial it's UCE
>spam even though it's not UBE spam.

The problem with the UCE definition is that it means non-profit
organisations can spam with impunity. It doesn't matter whether it's
WidgetCo trying to sell me widgets, a political party trying to sell
me their candidates or some wacky religious cult trying to sell me
their version of salvation, it's all spam.

The other problem with using UCE as the definition is that
"commercial" works both ways. I recently emailed a bunch of companies,
entirely unsolicited, but I bet they were all pleased to hear from me
- because I was enquiring about their products and asking them how
much they'd sell them to me for. And, a few days after I'd done that,
I got an email from another supplier (of the same type of products)
that I hadn't contacted, asking me if I wanted some samples from them
as well. All these emails were unsolicted, all were commercial, but
none of them were spam.

The third objection to using UCE as the definition is that it makes
the definition of spam content-dependent. UBE and its Usenet
equivalents, ECP and EMP, are all defined by quantity rather than
content - it doesn't matter what the message says, it's how
indiscriminately it's distributed that makes it a problem. That makes
for a more neutral definition, as it's not so much of a judgement call
as to what is or isn't spam - it can be tested against entirely
objective criteria.

Mark
--
Visit: http://www.GoogleFun.info - fun and games with Google!
Listen: http://www.goodge.co.uk/files/dweeb.mp3 - you'll love it!

GreyWyvern

2006-04-21, 7:15 pm

And lo, Mark Goodge didst speak in alt.www.webmaster:

> On 21 Apr 2006 09:18:29 GMT, Blinky the Shark put finger to keyboard
> and typed:

[snip]

I do believe Blinky would correct you on that.

Grey

Blinky the Shark

2006-04-21, 7:15 pm

Mark Goodge wrote:

> On 21 Apr 2006 09:18:29 GMT, Blinky the Shark put finger to
> keyboard and typed:
>
>
> The problem with the UCE definition is that it means non-profit
> organisations can spam with impunity. It doesn't matter whether

Until their impunious behavior carries their actions over into the
UBE category where you started.

> it's WidgetCo trying to sell me widgets, a political party
> trying to sell me their candidates or some wacky religious cult
> trying to sell me their version of salvation, it's all spam.

Sure it is. I doubt that there will ever be a perfect definition
of spam. So we do the best with what we have, and that covers
most of it, which is the best for which we can hope.

> The other problem with using UCE as the definition is that

It's *one* criterion, not *the* criterion. That's why I presented
it as something applicable when "UBE" doesn't fit.

> "commercial" works both ways. I recently emailed a bunch of
> companies, entirely unsolicited, but I bet they were all pleased
> to hear from me - because I was enquiring about their products
> and asking them how much they'd sell them to me for. And, a few
> days after I'd done that, I got an email from another supplier
> (of the same type of products) that I hadn't contacted, asking
> me if I wanted some samples from them as well. All these emails
> were unsolicted, all were commercial, but none of them were
> spam.

I'm not convinced that it wasn't spam.

That said, though, LIS, no combination of definitions is perfect.

> The third objection to using UCE as the definition is that it
> makes the definition of spam content-dependent. UBE and its

Not when it's only ONE of the criteria, all of which do not need
to apply to any piece of spam.

> Usenet equivalents, ECP and EMP, are all defined by quantity
> rather than content - it doesn't matter what the message says,

I'm familiar with Seth's work, yes.

> it's how indiscriminately it's distributed that makes it a
> problem. That makes for a more neutral definition, as it's not
> so much of a judgement call as to what is or isn't spam - it can
> be tested against entirely objective criteria.

Yes, mathematic precision is handy. But it's only one useful
tool.

--
Blinky
Kill-filing all posts from Google Groups
Details: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html

David Cary Hart

2006-04-21, 7:15 pm

On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 22:08:34 GMT
gene <onlyme@yahoo.com> opined:
> We send out about 3000 Emails a month to the same subcriber list we
> have, but wondered if our hosting company would consider that spam?
>
Apparently not. This might help: http://tqmcube.com/spamdef.php

Assuming these are opt-ins, maintain your list! Make sure that
rejects are removed.

> If we buy a list and send out some Emails to say hello and look for
> new subscribers, are we spamming?

ABSOLUTELY!

--
Displayed Email Address is a SPAM TRAP
Our DNSRBL - Eliminate Spam: http://www.TQMcube.com
Multi-RBL Check: http://www.TQMcube.com/rblcheck.php
The Dirty Dozen Spammiest Ranges: http://tqmcube.com/dirty12.php

David Cary Hart

2006-04-21, 7:15 pm

On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 07:52:07 +0100
Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> opined:
>
> That depends entirely on the origin of the list. There are
> legitimately traded lists of email addresses, usually gathered from
> sites which require visitors to sign up to a tradable list as a
> condition for getting access to their content. So, if you get one of
> these, it isn't spam to use it.
>
Insofar as Can Spam is concerned - you might be correct IF the fact
that the list will be shares is "prominently" displayed. Moreover,
most of the lists that are sold as "opt-in" are of dubious
legitimacy. Most will land you on our DNSBL and Spamhaus.
--
Displayed Email Address is a SPAM TRAP
Our DNSRBL - Eliminate Spam: http://www.TQMcube.com
Multi-RBL Check: http://www.TQMcube.com/rblcheck.php
The Dirty Dozen Spammiest Ranges: http://tqmcube.com/dirty12.php

Viper

2006-04-21, 7:15 pm

Mark Goodge wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Apr 2006 16:57:20 -0700, trevor put finger to keyboard and
> typed:
>
>
> That's not entirely true. The purist rule is that spam consists of
> Unsolicited Bulk Email, with the "Bulk" part referring to mass
> mailings from a list rather than an individual human-to-human
> communication. It isn't spam to sit in front of your computer, fire up
> Outlook (or your mail client of choice) and write an email to someone
> you've never previously communicated with. It is spam to take an
> address and add it to a mailing list system without the address
> owner's consent.
>
Do that to me and see how fast I report you for spamming me.

Mark Goodge

2006-04-21, 7:15 pm

On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 16:30:58 -0400, Viper put finger to keyboard and
typed:

>Mark Goodge wrote:
>Do that to me and see how fast I report you for spamming me.

Do what to you? If you reported me for spamming if I emailed you
personally, then you're an idiot. If you reported me for spamming
because I added you to a mailing list, you'd be entirely justified.

Mark
--
Visit: http://www.CorporateContact.info - phone and email contacts for Amazon, Paypal, eBay and lots of other hard-to-contact organisations
Listen: http://www.goodge.co.uk/files/dweeb.mp3 - you'll love it!

Ken Sims

2006-04-21, 7:15 pm

Hi Blinky -

On 21 Apr 2006 09:18:29 GMT, Blinky the Shark <no.spam@box.invalid>
wrote:

>Mark Goodge wrote:
>
>
>Okay, if you're going to narrow the field that way, I'll broaden
>it back to where it belongs by bringing up UCE -- Unsolicited
>Commercial Mail. Now we're where we should be -- even if the
>numbers are small, if it's unsolicited and commercial it's UCE
>spam even though it's not UBE spam.

I consider email spam to be UBE, UCE, and UPE (Unsolicited Promotional
Email). The last covers non-profit, political, religious, and other
organizations who claim that their unsolicited email isn't spam
because it isn't "Commercial".

--
Ken
http://www.kensims.net/

Tony

2006-04-21, 7:15 pm

Mark Goodge wrote:
>
> The problem with the UCE definition is that it means non-profit
> organisations can spam with impunity. It doesn't matter whether it's
> WidgetCo trying to sell me widgets, a political party trying to sell
> me their candidates or some wacky religious cult trying to sell me
> their version of salvation, it's all spam.

Is there an official definition being used here?

To me, a non-profit sending me an unsolicited request for donations is
also "commercial"

trevor

2006-04-21, 7:15 pm

Viper wrote:

> Do that to me

so i have your consent. still at the same address?

Mark Goodge

2006-04-21, 7:15 pm

On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 14:07:20 -0700, Tony put finger to keyboard and
typed:

>Mark Goodge wrote:
>
>Is there an official definition being used here?

There's no "official" definition, as such. But the generally accepted
definitions are those which have the closest to a consensus among
those involved in combatting spam, and UBE is probably the most widely
accepted of those.

Mark
--
Visit: http://www.MotorwayServices.info - read and share comments and opinons
Listen: http://www.goodge.co.uk/files/dweeb.mp3 - you'll love it!

Swampy Bogtrotter

2006-04-21, 7:15 pm

Viper wrote:
> Mark Goodge wrote:
> Do that to me and see how fast I report you for spamming me.

Of course you'd need to differentiate between normal emails and marketing
ones, but on the whole I agree with your point.....The average Joe web user
really wouldn't have much idea whether an unsolicited email was part of a
bulk mailing or just a one-off.....To him, the result is much the
same.....He receives an email he didn't ask for, offering to sell him
something he doesn't need.....

William Tasso

2006-04-21, 7:15 pm

Fleeing from the madness of the ntlworld News Service jungle
Swampy Bogtrotter <samandjanetknox@tessco.net> stumbled into
news:alt.www.webmaster
and said:

> ...
> He receives an email he didn't ask for, offering to sell him
> something he doesn't need.....

but, but, but, how do you know he doesn't need it unless you remind him
every hour on the hour ?

--
William Tasso

http://williamtasso.com/words/what-is-usenet.asp

Blinky the Shark

2006-04-22, 3:51 am

Ken Sims wrote:

> Hi Blinky -
>
> On 21 Apr 2006 09:18:29 GMT, Blinky the Shark
> <no.spam@box.invalid> wrote:
>
>
> I consider email spam to be UBE, UCE, and UPE (Unsolicited
> Promotional Email). The last covers non-profit, political,
> religious, and other organizations who claim that their
> unsolicited email isn't spam because it isn't "Commercial".

Works for me.

--
Blinky
Kill-filing all posts from Google Groups
Details: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html

trevor

2006-04-24, 4:18 am

>>purists believe that ALL unsolicited emails are spam. this outlook makes
>
> That's not entirely true. The purist rule is that spam consists of
> Unsolicited Bulk Email,

i left out "commercial". the purist rule outlaws all unsolicited COMMERCIAL
emails. beyond that, apparently my purists trump your purists in pureism.

> with the "Bulk" part referring to mass
> mailings from a list rather than an individual human-to-human
> communication. It isn't spam to sit in front of your computer, fire up
> Outlook (or your mail client of choice) and write an email to someone
> you've never previously communicated with.

even to offer d1sc0unt V|AGRA TO M@KE H3R Y0UR SL4VE???

> It is spam to take an
> address and add it to a mailing list system without the address
> owner's consent.

yeah, and down the slippery slope.

> And the fact that spam is unsolicted mail doesn't make email marketing
> impossible. A lot of organisations maintain mailing lists consisting
> of addresses that have been voluntarily subscribed for the purposes of
> receiving news and information. I help run such a list that has over
> 50,000 addresses on it.

really? where can i learn more?

> If what you're offering is interesting enough,
> people will sign up to a mailing list about it. But if it isn't
> interesting enough, then spamming isn't going to make them interested.
>
> Mark

trevor

Viper

2006-04-25, 6:54 am

trevor wrote:
> Viper wrote:
>
>
> so i have your consent. still at the same address?

You have my consent until I ask you not to :P