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Worst site in the net?
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| Todd H. 2006-11-19, 7:58 pm |
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From an HTML design perspective, the sad news is that the worst site
on the net also happens to be one of the most visited.
I'm talking of course about the html abomination of myspace.com
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/
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| Charles Sweeney 2006-11-19, 7:58 pm |
| Todd H. wrote
>
> From an HTML design perspective, the sad news is that the worst site
> on the net also happens to be one of the most visited.
>
> I'm talking of course about the html abomination of myspace.com
Seems to me, in order to be a success, google, amazon, ebay, myspace, one
MUST employ "poor" HTML!
--
Charles Sweeney
http://CharlesSweeney.com
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| Red E. Kilowatt 2006-11-19, 7:58 pm |
| Charles Sweeney <me@charlessweeney.com> wrote in message:
Xns9879D2D973D0Cmecharlessweeneycom@130.133.1.4,
> Todd H. wrote
>
>
> Seems to me, in order to be a success, google, amazon, ebay, myspace,
> one MUST employ "poor" HTML!
It certainly goes to show that validation to some arbitrary standard
isn't everything; or even the most important thing.
--
Red
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Red E. Kilowatt wrote:
> Charles Sweeney <me@charlessweeney.com> wrote in message:
> Xns9879D2D973D0Cmecharlessweeneycom@130.133.1.4,
>
>
> It certainly goes to show that validation to some arbitrary standard
> isn't everything; or even the most important thing.
>
IE, FF, Opera and Lynx.
If it works, it works ;)
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| David J. Hennessy 2006-11-19, 7:58 pm |
| Red E. Kilowatt wrote:
> Charles Sweeney <me@charlessweeney.com> wrote in message:
> Xns9879D2D973D0Cmecharlessweeneycom@130.133.1.4,
>
>
> It certainly goes to show that validation to some arbitrary standard
> isn't everything; or even the most important thing.
>
Is it not typical of our species for the best/better practices to most
typically not be employed? I would find it very surprising indeed if the
sites that are developed the most -- and with the highest development
budgets -- would actually follow practices that would be of great
benefit to everyone (including themselves).
--
David J. Hennessy
http://maidix.com/
http://choicesolver.com/
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| johngohde@naturalhealthperspective.com 2006-11-19, 7:58 pm |
| Red E. Kilowatt wrote:
>
> It certainly goes to show that validation to some arbitrary standard
> isn't everything; or even the most important thing.
Amen!
The worst sites use only Flash! Bad sites use Flash.
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| Alfred Molon 2006-11-19, 7:58 pm |
| Just for your information, it's bad manners to
1. start a thread with somebody's name in it, and most of all
2. insult somebody
--
Alfred Molon
http://www.molon.de - Photos of Asia, Africa and Europe
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| Karl Groves 2006-11-19, 7:58 pm |
| "johngohde@naturalhealthperspective.com"
<johngohde@naturalhealthperspective.com> wrote in
news:1163390338.836793.323130@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com:
> Red E. Kilowatt wrote:
>
> Amen!
>
> The worst sites use only Flash! Bad sites use Flash.
Surely you don't think that the DISGUSTING appearance and markup of your
own work serves as evidence of your qualification to judge the goodness or
badness of Flash?
--
Karl Groves
www.karlcore.com
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| Red E. Kilowatt 2006-11-19, 7:58 pm |
| David J. Hennessy <david@maidix.com> wrote in message:
fmQ5h.2508$l%2.325@trnddc05,
> Red E. Kilowatt wrote:
>
> Is it not typical of our species for the best/better practices to most
> typically not be employed? I would find it very surprising indeed if
> the sites that are developed the most -- and with the highest
> development budgets -- would actually follow practices that would be
> of great benefit to everyone (including themselves).
It's far more typical for our "species" to reject pressure to conform to
arbitrary standards made up by self-appointed committees, trade groups,
and "international consortiums." Such standards are helpful when they
are considered completely voluntary, but too often they are used as a
measure of value and quality or to discriminate against supposedly
"unqualified" people; keeping them out of a trade completely or making
it a lot more difficult for them to find employment.
--
Red
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| David J. Hennessy 2006-11-19, 7:58 pm |
| Red E. Kilowatt wrote:
> David J. Hennessy <david@maidix.com> wrote in message:
> fmQ5h.2508$l%2.325@trnddc05,
>
>
> It's far more typical for our "species" to reject pressure to conform to
> arbitrary standards made up by self-appointed committees, trade groups,
> and "international consortiums." Such standards are helpful when they
> are considered completely voluntary, but too often they are used as a
> measure of value and quality or to discriminate against supposedly
> "unqualified" people; keeping them out of a trade completely or making
> it a lot more difficult for them to find employment.
>
Don't get me wrong. If I had a client who insisted that I maintain 4 or
5 different versions of the site, that I use bloated code in each, and
that I update each every year or so, I wouldn't terribly mind (as long
as I didn't have to pay the bandwidth bill). Of course, I'd be certain
to present the alternative which I believe to be superior, which would
be to utilize the standards of my trade to build a site that is
cross-browser compatible, deprecates gracefully, and has markup that is
indexable. They certainly have the right to override my judgment; they
also have the right to present their entire page, including text, as a
jpeg, and to pay $1000 a month to somebody for "Search Engine
Optimization." There are, of course, many sites where using the spec
really doesn't matter, but in those cases, would they be retaining a
professional to build the site?
--
David J. Hennessy
http://maidix.com/
http://choicesolver.com/
http://davidhennessy.net/
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| Red E. Kilowatt 2006-11-19, 7:58 pm |
| David J. Hennessy <david@maidix.com> wrote in message:
GB46h.3652$5P2.1607@trnddc02,
> Red E. Kilowatt wrote:
>
>
> Don't get me wrong. If I had a client who insisted that I maintain 4
> or 5 different versions of the site, that I use bloated code in each,
> and that I update each every year or so, I wouldn't terribly mind (as
> long as I didn't have to pay the bandwidth bill). Of course, I'd be
> certain to present the alternative which I believe to be superior,
> which would be to utilize the standards of my trade to build a site
> that is cross-browser compatible, deprecates gracefully, and has
> markup that is indexable. They certainly have the right to override
> my judgment; they also have the right to present their entire page,
> including text, as a jpeg, and to pay $1000 a month to somebody for
> "Search Engine Optimization." There are, of course, many sites where
> using the spec really doesn't matter, but in those cases, would they
> be retaining a professional to build the site?
Sure. Many clients hire a professional and then presume to dictate all
kinds of stuff they know little to nothing about. You try to steer them
towards what is reasonable, but in the end, he who pays the piper calls
the tune.
Not that I know anything about web design for hire. Even if I had the
knowledge and skills necessary to hire myself out as a web designer I
wouldn't do it because I learned a long time ago as a desktop publisher
that when doing creative work for hire you often have to deal with some
very difficult clients.
--
Red
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| johngohde@naturalhealthperspective.com 2006-11-19, 7:58 pm |
| Karl Groves wrote:
>
> Surely you don't think that the DISGUSTING appearance and markup of your
> own work serves as evidence of your qualification to judge the goodness or
> badness of Flash?
The worst site that I ever came across is:
The Blair Witch Project
http://www.blairwitch.com/
That crappy Flash website does NOT have a paragraph of text in the
whole site. It also has a bad habit of going completely black on you.
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| David J. Hennessy 2006-11-19, 7:58 pm |
| Red E. Kilowatt wrote:
<snip>
> that when doing creative work for hire you often have to deal with some
> very difficult clients.
Amen! There are some who are still in my nightmares (slight
exaggeration). There have been some really awesome ones, too, though. A
lot of it comes down to clients who are goal-oriented vs. clients who
are task-oriented. I've found the former tend to respect me as a
professional & work cooperatively with me, whereas the latter tend to
view me as disposable labor & are adversarial about negotiating their
endless micromanagement checklists. You can guess what I prefer. :-P
--
David J. Hennessy
http://maidix.com/
http://choicesolver.com/
http://davidhennessy.net/
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| William Tasso 2006-11-19, 7:58 pm |
| Fleeing from the madness of the jungle
David J. Hennessy <david@maidix.com> stumbled into news:alt.www.webmaster
and said:
> Red E. Kilowatt wrote:
> <snip>
>
>
> Amen! There are some who are still in my nightmares (slight
> exaggeration).
I have one on the go right now.
> There have been some really awesome ones, too, though. A lot of it comes
> down to clients who are goal-oriented vs. clients who are task-oriented.
No kidding, this lot were a peach to work with when I was reporting direct
to the main man.
> I've found the former tend to respect me as a professional & work
> cooperatively with me, whereas the latter tend to view me as disposable
> labor & are adversarial about negotiating their endless micromanagement
> checklists.
yep - now there's a project management team in place, micromanagement of
every tiny item is dragging this project way over deadline.
> You can guess what I prefer. :-P
10/4
--
William Tasso
http://williamtasso.com/words/what-is-usenet.asp
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| Red E. Kilowatt 2006-11-19, 7:58 pm |
| David J. Hennessy <david@maidix.com> wrote in message:
Tm96h.2753$bj1.86@trndny05,
> Red E. Kilowatt wrote:
> <snip>
>
>
> Amen! There are some who are still in my nightmares
Oh, and I forgot to add that it always seemed like the more difficult
the client was, the longer it took to get paid.
Although I managed to maintain a perfect record in always collecting
what I was owed, sometimes it took quite a while; the worst was a full
year.
--
Red
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| David J. Hennessy 2006-11-19, 7:58 pm |
| Red E. Kilowatt wrote:
> David J. Hennessy <david@maidix.com> wrote in message:
> Tm96h.2753$bj1.86@trndny05,
>
>
>
> Oh, and I forgot to add that it always seemed like the more difficult
> the client was, the longer it took to get paid.
>
> Although I managed to maintain a perfect record in always collecting
> what I was owed, sometimes it took quite a while; the worst was a full
> year.
>
Well done! I've noticed that, too.
I came across this today, which discusses the flip side... it's an
interesting take.
> http://www.alistapart.com/articles/difficultclients
--
David J. Hennessy
http://maidix.com/
http://choicesolver.com/
http://davidhennessy.net/
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| William Tasso 2006-11-19, 7:58 pm |
| Fleeing from the madness of the jungle
David J. Hennessy <david@maidix.com> stumbled into news:alt.www.webmaster
and said:
[color=darkred]
> ...
> I came across this today, which discusses the flip side... it's an
> interesting take.
>
Good read - only problem is the URL/heading.
Makes it a trifle difficult to bring that article up in casual
conversation with the client :)
--
William Tasso
http://williamtasso.com/words/what-is-usenet.asp
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| Uncle Pirate 2006-11-19, 7:58 pm |
| comphelp@toddh.net (Todd H.) wrote in news:84wt60wcqf.fsf@ripco.com:
>
> From an HTML design perspective, the sad news is that the worst site
> on the net also happens to be one of the most visited.
>
> I'm talking of course about the html abomination of myspace.com
>
>
Does this mean that on the business site I am developing, I should toss
the HTML 4.01 strict and go to using some form of tag soup? ;)
--
Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate" http://stanmccann.us/pirate.html
Webmaster, ABATE of NM; AMA#758681; COBB; RETIRED!!
'94 1500 Vulcan (now wrecked) :( http://motorcyclefun.org/Dcp_2068c.jpg
A zest for living must include a willingness to die. - R.A. Heinlein
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| David J. Hennessy 2006-11-19, 7:58 pm |
| Uncle Pirate wrote:
> comphelp@toddh.net (Todd H.) wrote in news:84wt60wcqf.fsf@ripco.com:
>
>
> Does this mean that on the business site I am developing, I should toss
> the HTML 4.01 strict and go to using some form of tag soup? ;)
>
I've often wondered if the reportedly excessive costs of running some of
these high-profile sites is simply because of poor architecture &
disregard for standard practices. MySpace appears to be powered by Cold
Fusion, and the HTML output is practically indecipherable. I'd hate to
imagine the hardware it takes to keep that site running!
--
David J. Hennessy
http://maidix.com/
http://choicesolver.com/
http://davidhennessy.net/
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| Karl Groves 2006-11-19, 7:58 pm |
| "David J. Hennessy" <david@maidix.com> wrote in news:ELv6h.2224$%U.1687
@trndny07:
> Uncle Pirate wrote:
>
>
> I've often wondered if the reportedly excessive costs of running some of
> these high-profile sites is simply because of poor architecture &
> disregard for standard practices. MySpace appears to be powered by Cold
> Fusion, and the HTML output is practically indecipherable. I'd hate to
> imagine the hardware it takes to keep that site running!
>
They're actually migrating to .NET now.
The site is plagued by technical problems. If my work went down as often as
MySpace does, I'd get fired, but those chumps are billionaires. Oh, the
humanity.
--
Karl Groves
www.karlcore.com
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| David J. Hennessy 2006-11-19, 7:58 pm |
| Karl Groves wrote:
> "David J. Hennessy" <david@maidix.com> wrote in news:ELv6h.2224$%U.1687
> @trndny07:
>
>
> They're actually migrating to .NET now.
> The site is plagued by technical problems. If my work went down as often as
> MySpace does, I'd get fired, but those chumps are billionaires. Oh, the
> humanity.
>
LOL... they're migrating to one of the few platforms I like even less
than Cold Fusion. What's that old adage about more money than brains?
--
David J. Hennessy
http://maidix.com/
http://choicesolver.com/
http://davidhennessy.net/
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| Red E. Kilowatt 2006-11-19, 7:58 pm |
| David J. Hennessy <david@maidix.com> wrote in message:
gFr6h.4966$5P2.4097@trnddc02,
[color=darkred]
> Red E. Kilowatt wrote:
>
>
> Well done! I've noticed that, too.
>
> I came across this today, which discusses the flip side... it's an
> interesting take.
>
Very nice article; and timely too! :-)
--
Red
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