Webmaster forum - Newbie - Web Programming Languages

Author

Newbie - Web Programming Languages

lakepeir@yahoo.com

2005-07-28, 7:32 pm

Hello,

I would like to create a website. I would like to have a chat, message
board and a appealing ui. I've learned C++ in school and I would like
help in deciding which web language would be best for me to use to
develop my website with?

Thanks

Allis

2005-07-28, 7:32 pm

<lakepeir@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1122587851.273636.83980@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Hello,
>
> I would like to create a website. I would like to have a chat, message
> board and a appealing ui. I've learned C++ in school and I would like
> help in deciding which web language would be best for me to use to
> develop my website with?
>
> Thanks
>

HTML http://htmlgoodies.com
PHP http://php.net

--
Allis
http://themooseisloose.net

SpaceGirl

2005-07-28, 7:32 pm

Allis wrote:
> <lakepeir@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1122587851.273636.83980@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> HTML http://htmlgoodies.com
> PHP http://php.net
>
>
> --
> Allis
> http://themooseisloose.net
>
>

PHP is not the language to learn if you know C++!!!

Learn C#.NET or JSP. JSP is the better of the two (well, free at least).

--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
# this post (c) Miranda Thomas 2005
# explicitly no permission given to Forum4Designers
# to duplicate this post.

SpaceGirl

2005-07-28, 7:32 pm

lakepeir@yahoo.com wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I would like to create a website. I would like to have a chat, message
> board and a appealing ui. I've learned C++ in school and I would like
> help in deciding which web language would be best for me to use to
> develop my website with?
>
> Thanks
>

For someone who knows C++, the best language for you to pick up is JSP,
which is basically like C in structure. Actually, it's like Java, which
is like C++. Most other web languages (PHP, ASP etc) are quite
different. JSP is also an Open Source language so you can pick up
everything you need (including development tools and web servers) for
free. Of course, all of this is server side and you really MUST know
HTML inside-out before even starting, plus CSS for making your UI look
pretty.

If you like, the web server is your plot of land. JSP is the builders
who're going to make your house. HTML is the bricks and cement. CSS is
the paint for the walls and decorations :) Miss out any one of those and
you really dont have a house/website type thing.

Hm.

Perhaps I should just go to bed.

m

--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
# this post (c) Miranda Thomas 2005
# explicitly no permission given to Forum4Designers
# to duplicate this post.

Steve Sobol

2005-07-28, 7:32 pm

SpaceGirl wrote:
> lakepeir@yahoo.com wrote:
>
>
> For someone who knows C++, the best language for you to pick up is JSP,
> which is basically like C in structure. Actually, it's like Java,

Actually, it IS Java, but there's a lot more to JSP and servlets than that.

> is like C++. Most other web languages (PHP, ASP etc) are quite
> different. JSP is also an Open Source language

Pedant alert: technically, Java and JSP aren't open source, at least the Sun
implementations thereof.

> everything you need (including development tools and web servers) for
> free. Of course, all of this is server side and you really MUST know
> HTML inside-out before even starting, plus CSS for making your UI look
> pretty.

Start with HTML and CSS, yes.

Get up to speed and then decide which scripting/programming language to use.

--
Steve Sobol, Professional Geek 888-480-4638 PGP: 0xE3AE35ED
Company website: http://JustThe.net/
Personal blog, resume, portfolio: http://SteveSobol.com/
E: sjsobol@JustThe.net Snail: 22674 Motnocab Road, Apple Valley, CA 92307

David Dorward

2005-07-28, 7:32 pm

Allis wrote:

> HTML http://htmlgoodies.com

Avoid this site, it is terrible.

http://www.htmlhelp.com/links/tutorials.htm is better.

> --

Please fix your sig seperator, it should be dash-dash-space, not dash-dash.

--
David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
Home is where the ~/.bashrc is

Marc Bissonnette

2005-07-29, 12:00 am

lakepeir@yahoo.com wrote in news:1122587851.273636.83980
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

> Hello,
>
> I would like to create a website. I would like to have a chat, message
> board and a appealing ui. I've learned C++ in school and I would like
> help in deciding which web language would be best for me to use to
> develop my website with?

Whichever you are most comfortable and efficient with.

For me, that's perl.
For others, it's Java, ASP, Python, etc, etc.

If you're already familiar with C++, however, you'll probably find that the
Java-esque languages will be easiest to pick up.

*personally*, I recommend avoiding platform-specific languages like ASP
like the plague - moving from MS servers to *nix servers with ASP solutions
is never a guaranteed thing/limits your selection of hosts.

--
Marc Bissonnette
CGI / Database / Web Management Tools: http://www.internalysis.com
Looking for a new ISP? http://www.canadianisp.com

David Dorward

2005-07-29, 12:00 am

lakepeir@yahoo.com wrote:

> I would like to create a website. I would like to have a chat, message
> board and a appealing ui. I've learned C++ in school and I would like
> help in deciding which web language would be best for me to use to
> develop my website with?

Start with HTML 4.01 Strict (for structure and relationships of the data you
send to the user).

Then add CSS (for presentation).

(although those two are not programming languages)

Then worry about automatically generating HTML, and accepting data from
users (then processing it, and possibly presenting it back to other users).
You can use C++ for the last bit if you like. My preference is Perl.

--
David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
Home is where the ~/.bashrc is

Charles Sweeney

2005-07-29, 12:00 am

David Dorward wrote

> Allis wrote:
>
>
> Avoid this site, it is terrible.

I found it helpful in the past.

Notice for half-wits: That does not mean I think it is the epitome of
everything an excellent HTML tutorial site should be.

--
Charles Sweeney
http://CharlesSweeney.com

Allis

2005-07-29, 12:00 am

"Charles Sweeney" <me@charlessweeney.com> wrote in message
news:Xns96A280C6FEAmecharlessweeneycom@130.133.1.4...
> David Dorward wrote
>
>
> I found it helpful in the past.
>
> Notice for half-wits: That does not mean I think it is the epitome of
> everything an excellent HTML tutorial site should be.
>

For many, it is the starting ground ;)

--
Allis
http://themooseisloose.net

mbstevens

2005-07-29, 12:00 am

Mak

2005-07-29, 12:00 am

"SpaceGirl" <NOtheSpaceGirlSPAM@subhuman.net> wrote in message
news:3kt3erFvvmfvU1@individual.net...
> lakepeir@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> For someone who knows C++, the best language for you to pick up is JSP,

Seconded!

--
"Tennis is a funny game; unbelievable highs and the lows are just as low..."
(JOHN MCENROE) BBC1

http://www.private-eye.co.uk

John Bokma

2005-07-29, 12:03 am

SpaceGirl <NOtheSpaceGirlSPAM@subhuman.net> wrote:

> PHP is not the language to learn if you know C++!!!
>
> Learn C#.NET or JSP. JSP is the better of the two (well, free at least).

LOL. You can't compare languages like that: free is better.

Moreover, both C# and Java (JSP = Java Server Pages) are both just a bit
related to C++. PHP has also a syntax very similar to C, so your advice is
a bad one.

Thinking that C#/Java is easier if you have a C++ background is a huge
mistake. There are some similarities but also a lot dissimilarities. And
almost the same makes it very hard, and causes many errors in thinking and
programming.

--
John PERL SEO tools: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
Experienced (web) developer: http://castleamber.com/
Get a SEO report of your site for just 100 USD:
http://johnbokma.com/websitedesign/seo-expert-help.html

John Bokma

2005-07-29, 12:03 am

SpaceGirl <NOtheSpaceGirlSPAM@subhuman.net> wrote:

> lakepeir@yahoo.com wrote:
message[color=darkred]
like[color=darkred]
>
> For someone who knows C++, the best language for you to pick up is
JSP,
> which is basically like C in structure. Actually, it's like Java,
which

JSP *is* Java. It stands for *Java* Server Pages. See my other post for
more remarks on how wrong your reasoning is.

> is like C++. Most other web languages (PHP, ASP etc) are quite
> different.

PHP has also a C like syntax. Similar doesn't mean easier to pick up.

> JSP is also an Open Source language

We probably talk about a different JSP then, since JSP is not a language
but a framework.

> so you can pick up
> everything you need (including development tools and web servers) for
> free.

Note that Open Source and free are not the same. It's perfectly possible
to get a closed source free solution. Java is not Open Source AFAIK (I
read some time that there were plans to make the source open, which is
not the same as Open Source, unless they use an Open Source approved
license model).

--
John PERL SEO tools: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
Experienced (web) developer: http://castleamber.com/
Get a SEO report of your site for just 100 USD:
http://johnbokma.com/websitedesign/seo-expert-help.html

William Tasso

2005-07-29, 12:03 am

Writing in news:alt.www.webmaster
From the safety of the Castle Amber - software development cafeteria
John Bokma <john@castleamber.com> said:

> I
> read some time that there were plans to make
> the source open, which is
> not the same as Open Source, unless they use
> an Open Source approved
> license model

Who approves the 'Open Source approved license model'?

--
William Tasso

** Business as usual

John Bokma

2005-07-29, 12:03 am

mbstevens <NOXwebmasterx@xmbstevensx.com> wrote:

> lakepeir@yahoo.com wrote:
> PERL is a good match for a C++ programmer.
> You'll have to learn to loosen up, though. ;)

Nah, you just will learn that *you* are the programmer / make the rules,
not the language. Which is a good thing to learn since it's the case in
other languages as well even though there are people who think that a
language can prevent stupid mistakes and turn people who just can't program
into programmers somehow. In short: if you mess up with Perl, you'll mess
up in any other programming language.

--
John PERL SEO tools: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
Experienced (web) developer: http://castleamber.com/
Get a SEO report of your site for just 100 USD:
http://johnbokma.com/websitedesign/seo-expert-help.html

mbstevens

2005-07-29, 12:03 am

John Bokma wrote:
> mbstevens <NOXwebmasterx@xmbstevensx.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Nah, you just will learn that *you* are the programmer / make the rules,
> not the language.

I think you might enjoy this...
http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisptext.html

Norman L. DeForest

2005-07-29, 4:17 am

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005, mbstevens wrote:

> John Bokma wrote:
>
> I think you might enjoy this...
> http://www.paulgraham.com/onlisptext.html

If you're talking[1] about a language in which the programmer makes the
rules, shouldn't you be mentioning Forth? :)

A fun[2] exercise is to write the same application in BASIC, C, APL,
Forth and assembler. Bonus points for more than one version of assembler.
Double bonus points if one of them is RCA's 1802.

By the way, my (admittedly amateur) HTML Sampler page (which doesn't cover
*everything*[3] but enough to get a page that displays correctly in Lynx)
might be of some help to get you started:
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~af380/html.html

[1] Don't be a pedant. You know what I mean.
[2] For various values of "fun".
[3] But it does have links to other resources including information on
making websites more accessible for the disabled.
--
Windows is *not* a "Toy OS". A screenshot of my current desktop:
<http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~af380/My...Jun-22-2005.gif> Want a desktop
like that? (change ".zip" to ".gif" or "-files.gif" to see zip contents):
<http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~af380/EtchASketch.zip>

Gianni Mariani

2005-07-29, 4:17 am

SpaceGirl

2005-07-29, 4:17 am

John Bokma wrote:
> SpaceGirl <NOtheSpaceGirlSPAM@subhuman.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> message
>
>
> like
>
>
> JSP,
>
>
> which
>
> JSP *is* Java. It stands for *Java* Server Pages. See my other post for
> more remarks on how wrong your reasoning is.
>
>
>
>
> PHP has also a C like syntax. Similar doesn't mean easier to pick up.
>
>
>
>
> We probably talk about a different JSP then, since JSP is not a language
> but a framework.
>
>
>
>
> Note that Open Source and free are not the same. It's perfectly possible
> to get a closed source free solution. Java is not Open Source AFAIK (I
> read some time that there were plans to make the source open, which is
> not the same as Open Source, unless they use an Open Source approved
> license model).
>

Technically yes - but you as a user dont need to worry about compilation
or anything :)

Java is "sort of" open source, in that everything that makes java (java
based webservers and compilers) are open source. Install Tomcat. If you
dont like the way it runs JSP, you can change it, or write your own bits.

--

x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
# this post (c) Miranda Thomas 2005
# explicitly no permission given to Forum4Designers
# to duplicate this post.

Arne

2005-07-29, 7:24 pm

Once upon a time *David Dorward* wrote:

> Allis wrote:
>
>
> Avoid this site, it is terrible.
>
> http://www.htmlhelp.com/links/tutorials.htm is better.
>

What I sometime wonder, is how up to date all those tutorials are that
can be find on several sites? On a part of a site there can be
updates, and even new pages added.

But often I find pages (part of a still managed site) that don't seam
to be updated, e.g. according to newer standards.

As an example, on the htmlhelp page "tutorials.htm" there is link to
"Learning HTML 3.2 by Examples". Why should I advice anybody who like
to learn HTML to learn HTML 3.2? Would it be better to learn 4.01 this
days, and for me to code in 4.01 when I do new sites?

Further more, the above link goes to a page by Jukka Korpela, last
updated in march 2004. It is accurate info about HTML 3.2 of course,
and there is no more to add about HTML 3.2 but there is also a lot of
information that is confusing:

<quote>
The next version of HTML, an extension to HTML 3.2, is known as HTML
4.0 (or the code name Cougar). It was approved as a W3C recommendation
in December 18th, 1997, but it takes time before there will be new
browser versions which support it and before users widely upgrade to
such versions. In particular, Netscape 4.0 and Internet Explorer 4.0
do not support HTML 4.0 in general;
</quote>

What new browser version don't support HTML 4.01 today? How widely is
Netscape 4.0 and IE 4.0 used today?

--
/Arne
My "widget" site: http://hem.bredband.net/arnel/
Top posters will be ignored. Quote the part you
are replying to, and don't quote signatures!

Toby Inkster

2005-07-29, 7:24 pm

William Tasso wrote:

> Who approves the 'Open Source approved license model'?

The Open Source Initiative, who own the trademark to the term "Open
Source".

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact

John Bokma

2005-07-29, 7:24 pm

SpaceGirl <NOtheSpaceGirlSPAM@subhuman.net> wrote:

> John Bokma wrote:

[...]

>
> Technically yes - but you as a user dont need to worry about
> compilation or anything :)

Huh? With closed source you don't have to worry about compilation, since
there is no source to compile. With OS you *might* have to compile now and
then, so it's the other way around.

> Java is "sort of" open source,

There is no such thing.

> in that everything that makes java
> (java based webservers and compilers) are open source.

Huh???

> Install Tomcat.

When I did, that was a major task back in those days :-)

> If you dont like the way it runs JSP, you can change it, or write your
> own bits.

Ah. What you mean: Tomcat is Open Source. Note that this is totally
different from: Java is Open Source. I can make a Word compatible document
with an Open Source program, but it would be extremely silly to claim that
that makes Word Open Source.

Also, Tomcat is just one program written in Java. It could have been
written in C++ for that matter and still be Open Source. Also, not all
programs written in Java are Open Source, or free.

--
John PERL SEO tools: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
Experienced (web) developer: http://castleamber.com/
Get a SEO report of your site for just 100 USD:
http://johnbokma.com/websitedesign/seo-expert-help.html

David Dorward

2005-07-29, 7:25 pm

John Bokma wrote:

> Also, Tomcat is just one program written in Java. It could have been
> written in C++ for that matter and still be Open Source.

And it still needs a JVM to use it.
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html

--
David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
Home is where the ~/.bashrc is

Matt Probert

2005-07-30, 7:38 pm

Once upon a time, far far away lakepeir@yahoo.com muttered

>Hello,
>
>I would like to create a website. I would like to have a chat, message
>board and a appealing ui. I've learned C++ in school and I would like
>help in deciding which web language would be best for me to use to
>develop my website with?
>
>Thanks
>

The basic to understand is that web site front ends (UI) are HTML.
behind the scenes you can use any language you like so long as it can
output HTML through stdout (so, C++, Perl, Python &c.)

The http server can call an external program, and send the output
(from stdout) to the client browser, which in turn expects to receive
HTML formatted ASCII text.

Regards

Matt

--
Free searchable encyclopaedia content for your web site:
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/xsearch.htm