Webmaster forum - The responsibility of running a dedicated server

Author

The responsibility of running a dedicated server

Tamlyn Rhodes

2005-07-25, 7:58 pm

Hi I'm a freelance web designer and have been toying with the idea of
getting my own dedicated server for a while. I know that it would pay
for itself very quickly with all my customers' web sites but I am
worried about the responsibility of keeping it running 24/7.

So I'm looking for opinions from others who have experience of running a
server. A friend of mine runs his own server and things seem to go wrong
with it rather more often than I would be willing to deal with. Could
that be because he's tinkering with it a bit too much? If I just set it
up as securely as possible then left it alone how often would it require
my attention?

Thanks for any advice and insights.

T.

Matt-the-Hoople

2005-07-25, 7:58 pm

after careful consideration, Tamlyn Rhodes wrote in alt.www.webmaster

> Hi I'm a freelance web designer and have been toying with the idea of
> getting my own dedicated server for a while. I know that it would pay
> for itself very quickly with all my customers' web sites but I am
> worried about the responsibility of keeping it running 24/7.

If you are not intimately familiar with the tasks involved in keeping a server healthy and secure, your best bet would be to get a
VPS account rather than a dedicated box - at least initially. Take an old computer and install your preferred OS and the
pertinent software and play around with it on your own network to 'get your feet wet'. A dedicated server is never 'set it and
forget it'.

--
Got lint?

William Tasso

2005-07-25, 7:58 pm

Writing in news:alt.www.webmaster
From the safety of the Pipex cafeteria
Tamlyn Rhodes <tsr@cs.man.ac.uk> said:

> Hi

How do you do?

> I'm a freelance web designer and have been toying with the idea of
> getting my own dedicated server for a while. I know that it would pay
> for itself very quickly with all my customers' web sites but I am
> worried about the responsibility of keeping it running 24/7.

and that responsibility can be expressed in £sterling/$US or similar right?

> So I'm looking for opinions from others who have experience of running a
> server. A friend of mine runs his own server and things seem to go wrong
> with it rather more often than I would be willing to deal with.

Well - have you considered managed dedicated?

> Could that be because he's tinkering with it a bit too much?

Could be, maybe a poor config to start with? possibly flakey hardware?
dodgy net connection?

> If I just set it up as securely as possible then left it alone how often
> would it require my attention?

I'd respectfully suggest that if you have to ask that question you're not
yet ready to manage your own box containing client sites. However, it
wouldn't hurt for you to set up a box to serve your personal hobby sites.

Setting up the web server is just one part of the equation. Have you
considered email (including mail account management). Have you considered
DNS?

> Thanks for any advice and insights.

np - whatever you decide, good luck (and remember it's supposed to be fun).

btw: what platform do your sites need?

--
William Tasso

** Business as usual

saz

2005-07-25, 7:58 pm

In article <42e50de1$0$12878$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com>,
tsr@cs.man.ac.uk says...
> Hi I'm a freelance web designer and have been toying with the idea of
> getting my own dedicated server for a while. I know that it would pay
> for itself very quickly with all my customers' web sites but I am
> worried about the responsibility of keeping it running 24/7.
>
> So I'm looking for opinions from others who have experience of running a
> server. A friend of mine runs his own server and things seem to go wrong
> with it rather more often than I would be willing to deal with. Could
> that be because he's tinkering with it a bit too much? If I just set it
> up as securely as possible then left it alone how often would it require
> my attention?
>
> Thanks for any advice and insights.
>
> T.
>
I did this - briefly. Plan on being "on-call" 24/7. Things will go
wrong at 2 am, dinnertime, when you're at a movie, or on vacation far
from your server - it ALL happened to me.

And when some clown decides you deserve a DNS attack - good luck.

Become a reseller.

Matt Probert

2005-07-25, 7:58 pm

Once upon a time, far far away Tamlyn Rhodes <tsr@cs.man.ac.uk>
muttered

>Hi I'm a freelance web designer and have been toying with the idea of
>getting my own dedicated server for a while. I know that it would pay
>for itself very quickly with all my customers' web sites but I am
>worried about the responsibility of keeping it running 24/7.
>
>So I'm looking for opinions from others who have experience of running a
>server. A friend of mine runs his own server and things seem to go wrong
>with it rather more often than I would be willing to deal with. Could
>that be because he's tinkering with it a bit too much? If I just set it
>up as securely as possible then left it alone how often would it require
>my attention?
>
>Thanks for any advice and insights.

We use a dedicated server, and on the rare occassions it's gone wrong
the hosting company have rebooted/fixed it free of charge within
minutes.

Most companies will let you pay more and have the server monitored
24/7 by technicians.

I shouldn't be scared, just pick a company carefully.

Matt

--
The Probert Encyclopaedia - Beyond Britannica
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com

jari

2005-07-25, 7:58 pm

Tamlyn Rhodes wrote:
> Hi I'm a freelance web designer and have been toying with the idea of
> getting my own dedicated server for a while. I know that it would pay
> for itself very quickly with all my customers' web sites but I am
> worried about the responsibility of keeping it running 24/7.

You could hire management company to keep an eye on the server. I have had
good experiences with http://www.acunett.com/management/ and
http://www.touchsupport.com/outsour...rt-sysadmin.php

They will keep your server software updated and also contact the datacenter
if there's problems.

--
Jari-Pekka Raitamaa - Rackglobal Europe
http://www.rackglobal.fi

Tina - AxisHOST, Inc.

2005-07-25, 7:58 pm

"Tamlyn Rhodes" <tsr@cs.man.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:42e50de1$0$12878$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
> Hi I'm a freelance web designer and have been toying with the idea of
> getting my own dedicated server for a while. I know that it would pay for
> itself very quickly with all my customers' web sites but I am worried
> about the responsibility of keeping it running 24/7.

Get a server from a host that offers "fully managed" solutions. ;-)

--Tina
--
http://www.AxisHOST.com - Serving the web since 1997
Very Generous Cpanel Hosting & Fully Managed Servers
Newsgroup 20% Discount Code: newsgroup

Tamlyn Rhodes

2005-07-25, 7:58 pm

I suspected that I wasn't really ready for it yet. VPS looks very
promising though and I can always migrate to a managed or unmanaged
dedicated server later on if necessary.

Thank you all for your help,

Tam.

Tina - AxisHOST, Inc.

2005-07-25, 11:49 pm

"X-file @yahoo.co.uk>" <andrew_zito<remove> wrote in message
news:VYcFe.681$x32.194@trndny09...
> Gee I se you run another blood sucking slave state hosting service

Yes, all of our employees are chained to their desks and covered in leeches.

--Tina

Tamlyn Rhodes

2005-07-25, 11:50 pm

Tina - AxisHOST, Inc. wrote:
> "X-file @yahoo.co.uk>" <andrew_zito<remove> wrote in message
> news:VYcFe.681$x32.194@trndny09...
>
> Yes, all of our employees are chained to their desks and covered in leeches.

Oooh... Sounds like fun! Do have an OfficeCam? :P

T.

Tina - AxisHOST, Inc.

2005-07-25, 11:51 pm

"Tamlyn Rhodes" <tsr@cs.man.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:42e57fb2$0$12886$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
> Tina - AxisHOST, Inc. wrote:
>
> Oooh... Sounds like fun! Do have an OfficeCam? :P

Pay per view. ;-)

--Tina

Steve Sobol

2005-07-25, 11:52 pm

Tina - AxisHOST, Inc. wrote:

>
> Pay per view. ;-)

Do you have a contract with Charter Cable? Charter's my cable company and
they have an On Demand channel that allows your remote to act like a DVR...
rewind, pause, fast-forward. But the program has to air on the On Demand
channel; none of the other PPV channels work that way.

If you want to make some money, perhaps you should get in touch with them.
Their corporate headquarters are in St. Louis...

**SJ "If you do work something out where we can buy this program of yours,
I'm gonna watch it" S

--
Steve Sobol, Professional Geek 888-480-4638 PGP: 0xE3AE35ED
Company website: http://JustThe.net/
Personal blog, resume, portfolio: http://SteveSobol.com/
E: sjsobol@JustThe.net Snail: 22674 Motnocab Road, Apple Valley, CA 92307

Gandalf Parker

2005-07-26, 7:53 pm

Tamlyn Rhodes <tsr@cs.man.ac.uk> wrote in
news:42e50de1$0$12878$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com:

> So I'm looking for opinions from others who have experience of running
> a server. A friend of mine runs his own server and things seem to go
> wrong with it rather more often than I would be willing to deal with.
> Could that be because he's tinkering with it a bit too much? If I just
> set it up as securely as possible then left it alone how often would
> it require my attention?

Probably he is tinkering too much. Ive seen many sites run for 5 years
and have no downtime because the owners didnt know enough about them to
mess with anything. While knowledgeable admins have... well.. more fun
with theirs. :)

I think that the evolution tends to be when I see webmasters who know
the backside of things well enough to have a long list of demands about
what they want running and what settings they want them to have. Also
important is having above-average knowledge of file and directory
handling (create, move, rename, delete, understanding having broken free
of some menu'd user tool to do such things).

From that level, you should move up to managing a server. That does NOT
mean installing one. Installations tend to be a step higher than
managment (I know it seems odd but consider it the difference between a
car driver to car maintenance to car builder).

Servers are mostly CPU, memory, and network card. The rest can be
minimum or even old parts for your first one. Get someone else to
install the OS. Something with a nice easy patching system. After that,
maintaining it will mean googling or asking for an answer, being able to
find the file they are talking about, being able to edit that file the
way they said to, and then being able to restart that service (or
reboot). Most of that is understanding the subject well enough to know
how and what to ask. If you are one of those "here is my long shopping
list" searchers for a service then you probably have that part licked.

You could also co-locate where an ISP sets you up your own server in
their datacenter with a nice fat pipe, air conditioning, backup power,
multi homing, backups, etc etc.

You can also try to connect up with some of the co-lo's already in place
since I have seen many who come nowhere near using all of their
resources. There are some who have the sysadmin part licked, but are in
great need of an in-house webmaster. You might be able to barter a home.

Gandalf Parker
--
coming soon (like most of my domains)
www.Any1can.net

Roy Schestowitz

2005-07-26, 7:53 pm

Gandalf Parker wrote:

> Tamlyn Rhodes <tsr@cs.man.ac.uk> wrote in
> news:42e50de1$0$12878$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com:
>
>
> Probably he is tinkering too much. Ive seen many sites run for 5 years
> and have no downtime because the owners didnt know enough about them to
> mess with anything. While knowledgeable admins have... well.. more fun
> with theirs. :)

5 years with no downtime whatsoever is unrealistic. No matter where you are,
there tend to be accidental power shortages or network cut-offs. Tamlyn
would know that a main wire was cut off by a builder last year in
Manchester. Then there's the issue of reboot, which might result in a
downtime of a few minutes. Even though my host is up over 99.9% of the
time, I can still observe these reboots on occasions. They claim to have
had 100% uptime for a year, but it's based on sampling, which I know
reflects badly on the truth.

> I think that the evolution tends to be when I see webmasters who know
> the backside of things well enough to have a long list of demands about
> what they want running and what settings they want them to have. Also
> important is having above-average knowledge of file and directory
> handling (create, move, rename, delete, understanding having broken free
> of some menu'd user tool to do such things).
>
> From that level, you should move up to managing a server. That does NOT
> mean installing one. Installations tend to be a step higher than
> managment (I know it seems odd but consider it the difference between a
> car driver to car maintenance to car builder).
>
> Servers are mostly CPU, memory, and network card. The rest can be
> minimum or even old parts for your first one. Get someone else to
> install the OS. Something with a nice easy patching system. After that,
> maintaining it will mean googling or asking for an answer, being able to
> find the file they are talking about, being able to edit that file the
> way they said to, and then being able to restart that service (or
> reboot). Most of that is understanding the subject well enough to know
> how and what to ask. If you are one of those "here is my long shopping
> list" searchers for a service then you probably have that part licked.
>
> You could also co-locate where an ISP sets you up your own server in
> their datacenter with a nice fat pipe, air conditioning, backup power,
> multi homing, backups, etc etc.

They have these in Manchester Computing. The geographical proximity would
probably allow you to enter the server room quickly shall anything
catastrophic happen.

> You can also try to connect up with some of the co-lo's already in place
> since I have seen many who come nowhere near using all of their
> resources. There are some who have the sysadmin part licked, but are in
> great need of an in-house webmaster. You might be able to barter a home.

Peter Mills (can't disclose telephone numbers on UseNet) can probably give
you advice on the issue. You can also own the server, have it placed in the
bridge, maintain it yourself (a short distance away) and if anything is too
much for you to handle, you can ask an engineer to assist. It is very
cost-effective.

Roy

--
Roy S. Schestowitz
http://Schestowitz.com

Ignoramus5833

2005-07-26, 7:53 pm

I run a dedicated linux server. I am very opposed to tinkering on a
production server and I disabled automatic software updates
completely. If I want to update something, I update it manually and
very carefully. It has been rather reliable, software wise. With my
dynamic website, database, valuable scripts etc I cannot even think of
allowing other untrusted people share my machine.

i

Gandalf Parker

2005-07-26, 7:53 pm

Roy Schestowitz <newsgroups@schestowitz.com> wrote in
news:dc5f8o$2bn9$1@godfrey.mcc.ac.uk:

> 5 years with no downtime whatsoever is unrealistic. No matter where
> you are, there tend to be accidental power shortages or network
> cut-offs. Tamlyn would know that a main wire was cut off by a builder
> last year in Manchester. Then there's the issue of reboot, which might
> result in a downtime of a few minutes. Even though my host is up over
> 99.9% of the time, I can still observe these reboots on occasions.
> They claim to have had 100% uptime for a year, but it's based on
> sampling, which I know reflects badly on the truth.

True. I meant to add something along the line of 99.9%
The systems Im thinking of have had power-burps which put them out only for
the time of a bootup, purposefuly reboots due to the admin installing
something which required it, and sometimes a period where a service was out
while someone messed with it which some people would call downtime even if
2 dozen other services were still running.

But I was gearing it toward the level of server that he seemed to be
considering. Such a comparison to higher grade professional services is
usually done by people running such services. Rather like mentioning to a
professional mechanic that you work on your own cars. :)

Gandalf Parker

Gandalf Parker

2005-07-26, 7:53 pm

Ignoramus5833 <ignoramus5833@NOSPAM.5833.invalid> wrote in
news:hkrFe.36092$BX6.27379@fe79.usenetserver.com:

> I run a dedicated linux server.

Me too.

> I am very opposed to tinkering on a
> production server and I disabled automatic software updates
> completely.

I also have disabled automatic updates. And doing self-installs is always
a good thing. However an information tool such as dselect which can tell
an admin what packages have updates available, lets you tag the ones you
want, installs then, and delivers you to the configs, can be be a
wonderful thing for a first time admin.

> If I want to update something, I update it manually and
> very carefully. It has been rather reliable, software wise. With my
> dynamic website, database, valuable scripts etc I cannot even think of
> allowing other untrusted people share my machine.

No one should allow "untrusted" people to share their machine. :)
But I was talking about him doing the webmaster job to a server that had
an admin. In fact, its exactly the thing that brought me to this group.
Too many toys for me to ever work on my web pages so I was shopping for a
webmaster who might be looking for a home. :)

I do understand what you are saying though. I would panic at the thought
of not having my own server now. I never again want to be forced to
operate within the limits set by some ISP.

Gandalf Parker
--
Been there, done that, fsck'd up, your turn.
(no that was not a mispelling)

William Tasso

2005-07-26, 7:53 pm

Writing in news:alt.www.webmaster
From the safety of the cafeteria
Gandalf Parker <gandalf@most.of.my.favorite.sites> said:

> Ignoramus5833 <ignoramus5833@NOSPAM.5833.invalid> wrote in
> news:hkrFe.36092$BX6.27379@fe79.usenetserver.com:
>
>
> Me too.

<aol /?

if we all do that there won't be any customers left ;)

<aol />
[color=darkred]
> ...
> No one should allow "untrusted" people to share their machine. :)

quite so.

> I would panic at the thought
> of not having my own server now.

indeed - an uncomfortable thought.

> I never again want to be forced to
> operate within the limits set by some ISP.

tasted blood and want more?

--
William Tasso

** Business as usual

Tina - AxisHOST, Inc.

2005-07-26, 7:53 pm

"Roy Schestowitz" <newsgroups@schestowitz.com> wrote in message
news:dc5f8o$2bn9$1@godfrey.mcc.ac.uk...
> Gandalf Parker wrote:
>
>
>
> 5 years with no downtime whatsoever is unrealistic.

Its also a really bad idea. Security patches, etc. must be done and many
of those require a reboot.

--Tina

Tina - AxisHOST, Inc.

2005-07-26, 7:53 pm

"Gandalf Parker" <gandalf@most.of.my.favorite.sites> wrote in message
news:Xns969F4947F8C52gandalfparker@208.201.224.154...
> Roy Schestowitz <newsgroups@schestowitz.com> wrote in
> news:dc5f8o$2bn9$1@godfrey.mcc.ac.uk:
>
>
> True. I meant to add something along the line of 99.9%

That's a huge amount of downtime. I think that translates into something
like a couple hours a month?

--Tina

Tamlyn Rhodes

2005-07-26, 7:53 pm

Roy Schestowitz wrote:
> Gandalf Parker wrote:
>
>
> They have these in Manchester Computing. The geographical proximity would
> probably allow you to enter the server room quickly shall anything
> catastrophic happen.

Hey Roy! Do you mean that mcc do colocation? I couldn't find any info
about this on the website(s) but I'll contact Peter Mills.

At the moment I'm seriosly considering taking up a linux VPS account
with spry.com. They're very competitively priced (the GBP/USD rates make
US offerings sooooo much cheaper than anything here) and seem to be well
regarded on webhostingtalk.com. As I understand it with their VPS
accounts the support staff will fix operational problems with the
default services (e.g. Apache, PHP, MySQL) if and when they occur and
also perform backups and upgrades. This seems ideal for me in my current
situation.

T.

Ignoramus5833

2005-07-26, 7:53 pm

On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:39:22 -0400, Tina - AxisHOST, Inc. <tpeters@axishost.com> wrote:
>
> Its also a really bad idea. Security patches, etc. must be done and many
> of those require a reboot.

I cannot think of a single security patch that I needed to apply in
the last 4 or so years, that required a reboot. About 5 years ago
there was a kernel bug that mandated a new kernel. The rest of my
upgrades usually boil down to doing

install stuff
killall appname
appname

Dylan Parry

2005-07-26, 7:53 pm

Using a pointed stick and pebbles, Tina - AxisHOST, Inc. scraped:

[99.9% uptime]
> That's a huge amount of downtime. I think that translates into something
> like a couple hours a month?

Not quite, more like 43 minutes and 48 seconds each month average. Over
a whole year that would come to 8 hours, 45 minutes and 36 seconds. Not
bad in the grand scheme of things.

Of course, it depends on what you are using the host for. Joe Blogs (Jon
Doe) hosting his homepage is unlikely to be worried about ~9 hours a
year downtime even if they all came at once, but for other folk it might
be a much bigger disaster.

--
Dylan Parry
http://webpageworkshop.co.uk -- FREE Web tutorials and references

Roy Schestowitz

2005-07-26, 7:53 pm

Tina - AxisHOST, Inc. wrote:

> "Gandalf Parker" <gandalf@most.of.my.favorite.sites> wrote in message
> news:Xns969F4947F8C52gandalfparker@208.201.224.154...
>
> That's a huge amount of downtime. I think that translates into something
> like a couple hours a month?

"Over 99.9%" also accounts for 99.999%. I think the downtime I experience is
verging the orders of magnitude of 99.99%... but then again, servers become
more reliable as time goes on.

Roy

--
Roy S. Schestowitz
http://Schestowitz.com

William Tasso

2005-07-26, 7:53 pm

Writing in news:alt.www.webmaster
From the safety of the Pipex cafeteria
Tamlyn Rhodes <tsr@cs.man.ac.uk> said:

> ...
> mcc do colocation?

They may as well try their hand at it - they're no bl**dy good with
"willow on leather" and they do have all those splendid (well connected)
sites up and down the country.

--
William Tasso

** Business as usual

Tina - AxisHOST, Inc.

2005-07-26, 7:53 pm

"Ignoramus5833" <ignoramus5833@NOSPAM.5833.invalid> wrote in message
news:kysFe.61475$1_2.24543@fe25.usenetserver.com...
> On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 10:39:22 -0400, Tina - AxisHOST, Inc.
> <tpeters@axishost.com> wrote:
>
> I cannot think of a single security patch that I needed to apply in
> the last 4 or so years, that required a reboot.

Depends on what you're running, what/who you host, etc.

--Tina

Gandalf Parker

2005-07-26, 7:53 pm

"Tina - AxisHOST, Inc." <tpeters@axishost.com> wrote in
news:dc5i5s01mtp@news2.newsguy.com:

> "Gandalf Parker" <gandalf@most.of.my.favorite.sites> wrote in message
>
> That's a huge amount of downtime. I think that translates into
> something like a couple hours a month?

Hmmm Ive never been good at math. In real facts; Ive run a Debian linux
server for 5 years and the only downtimes have been reboots. It looks
likes its been about 1 reboot for 7 months or so. I think thats pretty
good. Ive been debating taking it down for a complete upgrade of hardware
though.

Hmmm there was some "outage" due to a PacBell thing that lasted a day.
Nothing within my control but Im not sure how others would rate that.

Of course Im not trying to compete with any national service. Nor even
with anyone operating like a "real business". But Ive been pleasantly
surprised at how much service Ive been able to offer. And domains I host
all seem thrilled with added responsiveness from me, willingness to look
into anything they find on the net and feel they want to add, lack of
limits, community feel, /etc /etc

Gandalf Parker

Al Dykes

2005-07-27, 8:19 pm

In article <dc36ht020lb@news4.newsguy.com>,
Tina - AxisHOST, Inc. <tpeters@axishost.com> wrote:
>
>"Tamlyn Rhodes" <tsr@cs.man.ac.uk> wrote in message
>news:42e50de1$0$12878$cc9e4d1f@news.dial.pipex.com...
>
>
>Get a server from a host that offers "fully managed" solutions. ;-)
>

Do a bit of a business risk assesment. What kind of downtime can you you afford?

Do you need a hot or warm site capability ?

Stuff like that.

--
a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m

Don't blame me. I voted for Gore.