Webmaster forum - Advice for new web master. (semi-long)

Author

Advice for new web master. (semi-long)

lionelrooskie

2005-01-28, 7:43 pm

Hi all,

I apologize if this is not the appropriate forum for this question. If
there is a more appropriate place please say so.

The growing company I work for wants to make their website more interesting
with hopes to generate business. They do not have a webdesigner/master.
Right now I am employed as a peon at this firm. My current position is
totally unrelated to marketing and/or webdesign. I spoke with the marketing
director and created a demo for him, which he liked. After improving the
website (all with personal time), it looks like I can give them what they
want. They are very excited that they can hire somebody "in-house" to do
this, but have not mentioned compensation as of yet.

Now for a truckload of questions...

How should I ask to be compensated for this? Should I asked to compensated
for the time spent on the demo? Should I ask for a "contract" before I
spend more time doing this? What would be a fair salary/wage/amount for
someone with no prior experience and no formal schooling? I am also curious
how professionals are compensated for their services, i.e. Are you paid by
the site? or salaried?

Thanks for any insight.

Red E. Kilowatt

2005-01-28, 7:43 pm

"lionelrooskie" <lionelrooskie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95EAB8BB0109Frooskie@24.24.2.165
> Hi all,
>
> I apologize if this is not the appropriate forum for this question. If
> there is a more appropriate place please say so.
>
> The growing company I work for wants to make their website more
> interesting with hopes to generate business. They do not have a
> webdesigner/master. Right now I am employed as a peon at this firm.
> My current position is totally unrelated to marketing and/or
> webdesign. I spoke with the marketing director and created a demo for
> him, which he liked. After improving the website (all with personal
> time), it looks like I can give them what they want. They are very
> excited that they can hire somebody "in-house" to do this, but have
> not mentioned compensation as of yet.
>
> Now for a truckload of questions...
>
> How should I ask to be compensated for this? Should I asked to
> compensated for the time spent on the demo? Should I ask for a
> "contract" before I spend more time doing this? What would be a fair
> salary/wage/amount for someone with no prior experience and no formal
> schooling? I am also curious how professionals are compensated for
> their services, i.e. Are you paid by the site? or salaried?
>
> Thanks for any insight.

The first question I have is, "Are you sure there's a promotion in this
for you?" You should get something out of it, but it also possible that
the most they'll do is toss you a bone later on. You definitely want to
get that straightened out before finishing the site.

I'd recommend not going overboard with your expectations as to how much
reward they will commit to before the site is finished. I'm sure they
are pleasantly surprised that you can assume this assignment and
possibly a continuing role, but they also know you don't have a track
record and you are trying to prove yourself.
--
Red

saz

2005-01-28, 7:43 pm

In article <Xns95EAB8BB0109Frooskie@24.24.2.165>,
lionelrooskie@yahoo.com says...
> Hi all,
>
> I apologize if this is not the appropriate forum for this question. If
> there is a more appropriate place please say so.
>
> The growing company I work for wants to make their website more interesting
> with hopes to generate business. They do not have a webdesigner/master.
> Right now I am employed as a peon at this firm. My current position is
> totally unrelated to marketing and/or webdesign. I spoke with the marketing
> director and created a demo for him, which he liked. After improving the
> website (all with personal time), it looks like I can give them what they
> want. They are very excited that they can hire somebody "in-house" to do
> this, but have not mentioned compensation as of yet.
>
> Now for a truckload of questions...
>
> How should I ask to be compensated for this? Should I asked to compensated
> for the time spent on the demo? Should I ask for a "contract" before I
> spend more time doing this? What would be a fair salary/wage/amount for
> someone with no prior experience and no formal schooling? I am also curious
> how professionals are compensated for their services, i.e. Are you paid by
> the site? or salaried?
>
> Thanks for any insight.
>
Is this considered a promotion or a lateral move? Would your
responsibilities increase significantly? Will you still be doing your
other work, or would this be your sole responsibility?

Don't ask to be compensated for the demo, consider it a part of the
interview process.

If this is a promotion, a minimum 10 - 20% increase in pay would be
reasonable. I would also ask for that even if this is in addition to
your regular responsibilities.

Will you be required to learn any new skills? If so, see if they will
reimburse you for any courses you successfully complete.

If you are currently working without a contract, I wouldn't worry about
it.

When you talk about compensation, remember that everything is
negotiable. Always start high. Add 10 - 20% to what you are willing to
settle for so when you come down you get a fair salary. If you want
$50k, ask for $55k or 60k. They may say yes to the higher number.

Hope this helps. You have to go with what feels best for you.

lionelrooskie

2005-01-28, 7:43 pm

"Red E. Kilowatt" <rekilowatt@aww-faq.org> wrote in news:zyVJd.1280$WD4.444
@twister.socal.rr.com:

> The first question I have is, "Are you sure there's a promotion in this
> for you?" You should get something out of it, but it also possible that
> the most they'll do is toss you a bone later on. You definitely want to
> get that straightened out before finishing the site.

First, I appreciate your response, and also let me say that aww-faq.org has
alot of usefull information. To answer your question, I do not know what is
in this for me. I'd imagine that the content of the site will not change
much once it's up, so there will be no direct promotion for someone to
administer changing content. I was hoping however, for something in return
for my time.

> I'd recommend not going overboard with your expectations as to how much
> reward they will commit to before the site is finished. I'm sure they
> are pleasantly surprised that you can assume this assignment and
> possibly a continuing role, but they also know you don't have a track
> record and you are trying to prove yourself.

Let's say, that the finished site is perfect for them. To be honest, one of
the reasons I posted here, was to see what professionals would (or how they
would) charge for a one shot deal like this. Thus, knowing how much money
I'd have saved for them. I know there are alot of factors and I don't
expect a professional's price. I just don't want to be naive or taken
advantage of.

Auerbach

2005-01-28, 7:43 pm

I assume it's a small, young company you are working for, since a larger
outfit would probably be more comfortable with a web professional. Your
initiative in recognizing that they have a problem, and helping them solve
it without being asked, will probably be appreciated and help you eventually
move up from the "peon" ranks. If it doesn't, you've learned an important
lesson: this is not a company you want to stay at.

Present them with a brief letter of agreement, explaining that the purpose
is to ensure that they retain ownership of the copyright, understand the
costs for the entire project, etc. If you treat the project seriously, so
will they.

Assuming you did the design work on your own time, they should buy all
rights to the design from you; $500 or $1,000 is modest enough not to scare
them or make them wish they'd gone to a pro, but enough to show them that
your work has value. Then you should charge them a per-page fee to place
their content in the new design, perhaps in the range of $25 to $100 for
each page you create. You probably should include a flat fee per page for
expanding the site with additional pages.

Go to the sites of a few professional web design firms that post prices, and
you (and your firm) will quickly see that you are offering them a terrific
bargain, while generating enough pocket money for yourself to make the
project worthwhile, pay for some books, etc.

If they balk, either offer to do the work on their time, so at least you get
a bunch of additional experience to add to your resume. If they say no to
that, nicely thank them for considering your proposal. No harm, no foul. And
then start reading the classifieds, because they'd be crazy to turn down
your offer.

Alex

"Red E. Kilowatt" <rekilowatt@aww-faq.org> wrote in message
news:zyVJd.1280$WD4.444@twister.socal.rr.com...
> "lionelrooskie" <lionelrooskie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns95EAB8BB0109Frooskie@24.24.2.165
>
> The first question I have is, "Are you sure there's a promotion in this
> for you?" You should get something out of it, but it also possible that
> the most they'll do is toss you a bone later on. You definitely want to
> get that straightened out before finishing the site.
>
> I'd recommend not going overboard with your expectations as to how much
> reward they will commit to before the site is finished. I'm sure they are
> pleasantly surprised that you can assume this assignment and possibly a
> continuing role, but they also know you don't have a track record and you
> are trying to prove yourself.
> --
> Red
>
>

Duende

2005-01-28, 7:43 pm

While sitting in a puddle Auerbach scribbled in the mud:

> Assuming you did the design work on your own time, they should buy all
> rights to the design from you; $500 or $1,000 is modest enough not to
> scare them or make them wish they'd gone to a pro, but enough to show
> them that your work has value. Then you should charge them a per-page
> fee to place their content in the new design, perhaps in the range of
> $25 to $100 for each page you create. You probably should include a flat
> fee per page for expanding the site with additional pages.

What kind of sites are you refering to for these prices. If you mean non-
database sites than I'v done a few $10,000+ sites for free. Might be time to
get over my fear of income.

--
D?
http://wipkip.biz
I recommend
http://hostingforabuck.com/

Martin Harran

2005-01-28, 7:43 pm

"lionelrooskie" <lionelrooskie@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns95EAB8BB0109Frooskie@24.24.2.165...

>
> How should I ask to be compensated for this?

The first question you have to decide is why are you doing this? If it's a
once off, or learning experience for yourself, then you shouldn't get your
expectations up, you'll probably have to rely on the company's generosity
which may amount to little or nothing short term but may help your career
longer term by bringing you to the attention of senior management

If you see it as a launching pad into a web design career, then don't worry
too much about getting paid for it. It's been said many times here that the
most important step in such a career is getting a portfolio built up, most
people do this with freebies for friends, clubs or charities. This could be
a good start to your portfolio as it's a job for a commercial business and,
irrsepective of whether you actually get paid any extra for it, you can
truthfully say that it's work you were commissioned to do.

An important issue is will you be doing the work on company time or your own
time? If company time then you are not entitled to anything unless it can be
justified as a hihgher rate per hour job than what you are currently
getting; you should look at it as an opportunity to improve your skills
and/or portfolio on paid time . If you are going to do it in your own time,
then you should be remunerated for that. The worst - and most likely
scenario - is that you will be asked to do it in company time but will end
up spending a lot of personal time on it. You may not be rewarded for this.

>Should I asked to compensated
> for the time spent on the demo?

No, write that off to marketing yourself

>Should I ask for a "contract" before I
> spend more time doing this?

If you are already working for them, you already have a contract! (my point
above about doing it on comapny time)

>What would be a fair salary/wage/amount for
> someone with no prior experience and no formal schooling?

Whatever you can convince the client you're worth - sorry about such a vague
answer but this is one of those 'how long is a piece of string' questions

>I am also curious
> how professionals are compensated for their services, i.e. Are you paid by
> the site? or salaried?

That will vary from client to client and even job to job for a particular
client. Most companies embarking on any contract will want an idea of the
approximate overall cost before they agree to the contract

> Thanks for any insight.

You describe yourself as "employed as a peon at this firm" My gut feel on
this is that as you are an unproved web designer, you should seek to be
allowed to do this work on company time at your current rate of pay and
treat it as a chance to develop/prove your skills on paid time and a
stepping stone to increasing your profile in the company, or offer do it in
your time at a modest fee, in the hope that the company might decide to give
you a bonus if they're really pleased with the work.

If you get greedy - or appear to get greedy - at this stage they may well
take the view that if they are going to pay someone, they might as well pay
a proven professional.

lionelrooskie

2005-01-28, 7:44 pm

saz <saz1958@nospammersexcite.com> wrote in
news:MPG.1c620149fede7039896ef@news.comcast.giganews.com:

> Is this considered a promotion or a lateral move? Would your
> responsibilities increase significantly? Will you still be doing your
> other work, or would this be your sole responsibility?

I should clear things up some. This firm is something like an
structural/civil engineering firm. My current position is varied (field
work, office work), with low hourly pay (I do have a 3 walled office
however!). I most definately would still be doing other work since I was
also recently offered (and accepted) more responsibilities parallel to what
I do now. So, pretty much I have just been moderately promoted just prior
to the website situation.

> Don't ask to be compensated for the demo, consider it a part of the
> interview process.
>
> If this is a promotion, a minimum 10 - 20% increase in pay would be
> reasonable. I would also ask for that even if this is in addition to
> your regular responsibilities.
>
> Will you be required to learn any new skills? If so, see if they will
> reimburse you for any courses you successfully complete.
>
> If you are currently working without a contract, I wouldn't worry
> about it.
>
> When you talk about compensation, remember that everything is
> negotiable. Always start high. Add 10 - 20% to what you are willing
> to settle for so when you come down you get a fair salary. If you
> want $50k, ask for $55k or 60k. They may say yes to the higher
> number.
>
> Hope this helps. You have to go with what feels best for you.

Thanks alot for the response (and to all others who responded as well). I'm
glad I decide to post here.

lionelrooskie

2005-01-28, 7:44 pm

"Martin Harran" <nospam@martinharran.com> wrote in
news:35stscF4rf62eU1@individual.net:

<snip>

> An important issue is will you be doing the work on company time or
> your own time? If company time then you are not entitled to anything
> unless it can be justified as a hihgher rate per hour job than what
> you are currently getting; you should look at it as an opportunity to
> improve your skills and/or portfolio on paid time . If you are going
> to do it in your own time, then you should be remunerated for that.
> The worst - and most likely scenario - is that you will be asked to do
> it in company time but will end up spending a lot of personal time on
> it. You may not be rewarded for this.

These are good questions and I'm not sure what the answer is to most of
them. I guess I should find out if they are willing to at least let me work
on this on their time. Hopefully there can be a pay increase as well. If
they expect me to do this for free on my time, then I'd be pretty
disappointed.

>
> Whatever you can convince the client you're worth - sorry about such a
> vague answer but this is one of those 'how long is a piece of string'
> questions

Sorry, for that question, I think I knew it was a bad one as I was typing
it. ;)

> You describe yourself as "employed as a peon at this firm" My gut feel
> on this is that as you are an unproved web designer, you should seek
> to be allowed to do this work on company time at your current rate of
> pay and treat it as a chance to develop/prove your skills on paid time
> and a stepping stone to increasing your profile in the company, or
> offer do it in your time at a modest fee, in the hope that the company
> might decide to give you a bonus if they're really pleased with the
> work.

I'm actually am a web design "hobbyist", with no formal training or
background. That's why I was hesitant to pose these questions to
professionals. This is my first job out of college as a geologist. The pay
is crap and the work is nearly as bad. My motivation is to use whatever
skills I own to improve my financial situation.

> If you get greedy - or appear to get greedy - at this stage they may
> well take the view that if they are going to pay someone, they might
> as well pay a proven professional.

This may make sound like a broken record, but I really appreciate all the
responses to my questions.