VRML - Why Does Support For 3D On The Web Continue To Suck?

Author

Why Does Support For 3D On The Web Continue To Suck?

Dale

2006-01-07, 3:25 am

I've had this idea for a killer 3d web app for years, but there's never been
any reliable way to deliver it, it's frustrating.

For a while, Blaxxun was perfect, it loaded my large vrml files of
mountainous areas with large orthographic overlays and text annotation
quickly, and once loaded the navigation was vastly superior to all
contenders. Smooth as butter, with that little acceleration at the beginning
and end of each move. And the key modifiers for the mouse! None of this
Cortona crap where you have to constantly click on the little side panel to
change from panning to turning to zooming, what a pain.

But what happened, Blaxxun kept going in and out of business? Somebody on
this ng probably has kept up with that, but I never could. Are they back in
business, and if so, why are they offering version 5.3 which doesn't
recognize Firefox? And somehow or other they sold it to Bitmanagement who
worked on it for a little while, brought it up to version 6.2 which loads
into Firefox but is otherwise completely broken as far as my VRML is
concerned. It flashes whenever you click on the screen, viewpoints are not
where I put them, and navigation is chaotic.

Then there's Parallel Graphics Cortona, which is okay. Now they're focusing
on interactive manuals, which is cool, but their UI is very awkward for GIS
applications and they don't do PROTOs.

Octaga is the newcomer, but there's nothing really new about their product,
no place Cortona hasn't already been, and as with the others, a slavish
adherence to inadequate standards is their downfall.

I thought Google Earth might be the answer to my prayers, but I need the
Enterprise version and I don't even know how much it costs or exactly what I
can do with it because their sales people have never contacted me in months.
Well, actually I did get someone to call me, but when I told him I wanted
Enterprise and not Pro, he sputtered and said someone else would have to get
back with me, which they never did.

Then I found TerraExplorer the other day. Definitely a contender to Google
Earth for my purposes, but they need to figure out how the Keyhole people
made their software so fast, and they need to work on updating their look
and feel to something past 1998. After using Google Earth, TerraExplorer
seems slugish and crude.

Does anyone have any experience with TerraExplorer? Anybody know what the
pricing is like? How many polygons can it handle? How do you get data into
it?

--
"I'm tryin' ta think, but nuttin' happens!" - Curly Howard

Steve Smith

2006-01-07, 6:56 am

I share your frustration.

I took a look at the google earth API and I was disappointed.
I was hoping for something like VRML/X3D with the clever keyhole stuff going
on underneath but there is nothing there to specify a complex scene tree.
All you can do is create polygons specified in decimal lat long.

I know google earth is moving quickly but its years behind Contact/Cortona
for creating interactive environments.

I hope someone tells me I'm wrong.

Steve Smith

2006-01-07, 6:56 am

> Then there's Parallel Graphics Cortona, which is okay [....] and they
> don't do PROTOs.

What ?

jake reid

2006-01-07, 6:49 pm

What are you lot bumping your gums about?
You want interactive 3D in Google Earth?
VRML you say? GOOGLE EARTH is cosy with Sketch up
But this does not stop in anyway vrml playing its part.
Try This but make sure you have Cortona plugin or other

Interested? Want to see for yourself?
Items required. Google Earth and Cortona plugin installed.
Fire up Google Earth.
Click on Tools
Select Web (Mini Browser in Google Earth)
Click on Tools Again
Select Options
Select Preferences and Untick Show web results in external Browser.

Type in this address in Mini Browser Address Bar.
http://www.virtual-dundee.co.uk/dundee.kmz
Hit Enter Key
Prompt Select Run

Jake the Happy vrml Scotsman

Dale

2006-01-07, 10:25 pm

"jake reid" <jreid@naespamtaynet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:43c04fee.1745246@news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> What are you lot bumping your gums about?
> You want interactive 3D in Google Earth?
> VRML you say? GOOGLE EARTH is cosy with Sketch up
> But this does not stop in anyway vrml playing its part.
> Try This but make sure you have Cortona plugin or other
>
> Interested? Want to see for yourself?
> Items required. Google Earth and Cortona plugin installed.
> Fire up Google Earth.
> Click on Tools
> Select Web (Mini Browser in Google Earth)
> Click on Tools Again
> Select Options
> Select Preferences and Untick Show web results in external Browser.
>
> Type in this address in Mini Browser Address Bar.
> http://www.virtual-dundee.co.uk/dundee.kmz
> Hit Enter Key
> Prompt Select Run
>
> Jake the Happy vrml Scotsman

Interesting, but not what I'm looking for. What I need is something with the
speed and user interface of Google Earth, but with the annotational and
tourmaking capabilities of TerraExplorer, and I need to be able to serve up
my own data, which includes 10 meter (and finer) DEMs (GE is 30 meter and
worse) and my own orthophotographic overlays.

Btw, it seems like you could easily convert your wrl files to kml and have
the buildings displayed directly in Google Earth.

E Cubed

2006-01-07, 10:25 pm

"Dale" <dmgreer@nspm.airmail.net> wrote in message
news:6dKvf.67913$tV6.1439@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
> I've had this idea for a killer 3d web app for years, but there's never
been
> any reliable way to deliver it, it's frustrating.

> But what happened, Blaxxun kept going in and out of business? Somebody on
> this ng probably has kept up with that, but I never could.

> Then there's Parallel Graphics Cortona, which is okay. Now they're
focusing
> on interactive manuals, which is cool, but their UI is very awkward for
GIS
> applications and they don't do PROTOs.

> I thought Google Earth might be the answer to my prayers,

I've been away from VRML for a few years, due to more time-consuming
activities: not because I abandoned VRML. I continued to monitor this ng,
and it's good to know that nothing much has changed. Well, that's not so
good for VRML, but at least I can resume building worlds pretty much from
where I left off.

Your frustration is nothing new, but think about this: Google Maps uses old
web technology to pre-load information, which allows it to function quickly.
I was impressed when I first used it. So what was old is now new. VRML was
born when everyone was using 486 desktops and dial-up Internet connections.
Now, the average PC is a P4 3.0 MHz and many users either have DSL or cable
Internet connections. So the time may be right for VRML to make a comeback.
While VRML is not the best 3D toolbox around, it's the best the web has to
offer for the price: nothing!

I agree with you about Cortona's UI, but it works. You have to create your
own Protos, but I haven't experienced any problems with my prototypes in
Cortona, nor in Blaxxun. But Blaxxun has a business model geared for
multi-user worlds, and while they scaled down their server software into
smaller packages, it's still to expensive for me to invest in. If they
offered a 3D chat package for a smaller amount of users, while maintaining
most of the professional version's features, i.e. not a starter kit, but a
small professional kit, then I would be interested. Nevertheless, both
companies are trying to stay in business, and that requires re-evaluation
and/or readjustment of the business plan as time goes by. As long as they
offer their plug-ins for free to the home user, I don't have a problem with
their business choices.

Google Earth is spectacular, but also scary: I'm a little uncomfortable
zeroing in on my house. But in my opinion, it is not really 3D, more like
3D-ish. I believe 3D worlds should allow you to walk around and view objects
from every angle. I'm using VRML for GIS worlds too, and you always have to
be concerned with the polygon count, regardless of the plug-in. Humongous
worlds just aren't practical for internet use, so any GIS world would have
to be divided into smaller, more reasonable worlds. You can use VRML scripts
to load the adjacent worlds as the user approaches a certain region, and
create a Google Earth - like VRML world in real 3D. I say, don't count VRML
out. The tools are there for you to create just about anything you want. And
if your worlds are interesting, then people will come to view them, and as
the need grows, the browser and plug-in companies will realize that they
need to ensure that their products are compliant.

I've read articles over the years regulating VRML to the pile of promising
events that never caught on, but this is the Internet, and as long as people
use VRML, it will not die. So don't quit yet.

regards,

Ernest Rose

www.3Dversion.com

"VRML is not dead, it's just resting."

Russ

2006-01-09, 3:24 am

Dale wrote:
>Then there's Parallel Graphics Cortona, which is okay. Now they're focusing
>on interactive manuals, which is cool, but their UI is very awkward for GIS
>applications and they don't do PROTOs.

Cortona certainly does handle Protos.

I will add that considering Cosmoplayer has been unsupported or
upgraded for many years now, it still handles scripts in
asynchronous threads better than Cortona. Cortona will just ignore
a script if it gets too busy.
I think PG traded a certain level of robustness for a smaller download
size.

tc
Russ

Russ

2006-01-09, 6:20 am

I will add that considering Cosmoplayer has been unsupported or
upgraded for many years now, it still handles scripts in
asynchronous threads better than Cortona. Cortona will just ignore
a script if it gets too busy.
I think PG traded a certain level of robustness for a smaller download
size.

tc
Russ

fabricator

2006-01-09, 6:20 am

Dale wrote:
> I've had this idea for a killer 3d web app for years, but there's never been
> any reliable way to deliver it, it's frustrating.

[snip]

> But what happened, Blaxxun kept going in and out of business? Somebody on
> this ng probably has kept up with that, but I never could. Are they back in
> business, and if so, why are they offering version 5.3 which doesn't
> recognize Firefox? And somehow or other they sold it to Bitmanagement who
> worked on it for a little while, brought it up to version 6.2 which loads
> into Firefox but is otherwise completely broken as far as my VRML is
> concerned. It flashes whenever you click on the screen, viewpoints are not
> where I put them, and navigation is chaotic.

Its not contact which is the problem here it is Firefox, or to be more
accurate the Firefox ActiveX container. The opensouce group working on
the ActiveX container are obsessed with tinkering with it solely to
make the flash plugin run faster.

After one such "upgrade" done on the ActiveX container it no longer
initialized the 3d window at the correct resolution, instead it was the
top left 1/4 of the scene, but the same resolution on the screen. This
is probably the viewpoint problem you are seeing.

Take the matter up with the developers of the Firefox ActiveX
container, there is a link to their site in the help section.

Paul Aslin
http://www.vrmlworlds.com/

O.L.

2006-01-09, 11:21 pm

fabricator a formulé la demande :
> Dale wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
> Its not contact which is the problem here it is Firefox, or to be more
> accurate the Firefox ActiveX container. The opensouce group working on
> the ActiveX container are obsessed with tinkering with it solely to
> make the flash plugin run faster.
>
> After one such "upgrade" done on the ActiveX container it no longer
> initialized the 3d window at the correct resolution, instead it was the
> top left 1/4 of the scene, but the same resolution on the screen. This
> is probably the viewpoint problem you are seeing.
>
> Take the matter up with the developers of the Firefox ActiveX
> container, there is a link to their site in the help section.
>
> Paul Aslin
> http://www.vrmlworlds.com/

Hello,

After reading your post, I just tried to load a VRML scene in FireFox
1.0.7. It shows me the "additionnal plugin required" message, whereas
I've BlaxxunContact 5 installed on my PC.

Any idea ?
Should that work, or do I have bad versions of softwares ?

Thank you,
Olivier Ligny

--
Olivier Ligny
Créateur web free-lance / www.cyber-tamtam.net

simon

2006-01-09, 11:21 pm

> Then there's Parallel Graphics Cortona, which is okay [....] and they
> don't do PROTOs.

you might be interested in this, a study i did of proto's in the
various browsers:

http://vrml.portland.co.uk/conforma...type/index.html

<snip>
Summary: more to less conforming browser

Cosmo, Xj3d, Cortona, Octagon, Flux, Blaxxun, FreeWrl

So; if you test in FreeWrl, and don't check against other browsers or
the spec. you're least likely to have a working proto for Cosmo.,
conversely working protos in Cosmo are likely to work in FreeWrl.
</snip>

blaxxun protos have a lot of problems, so develop in them and you end
up with protos that only work in blaxxun.

Robert Lipman

2006-01-09, 11:21 pm

Dale,

I have managed to get a model of some structural steel into Google
Earth, although not exactly through VRML. The model starts off as a
CIS/2 file (product model for structural steel) and gets converted to
an IFC file with my CIS/2 to VRML and IFC Translator
(http://ciks.cbt.nist.gov/cgi-bin/ctv/ctv_request.cgi). The IFC file
gets imported to Architectural Desktop (ADT). Then with a free plugin
for ADT a Google Earth KML file is generated.

You can see the Google Earth model and VRML file at
http://cic.nist.gov/vrml/cis2.html On the right under What's New,
click on CIS/2 model in Google Earth and it will take you to the right
place on the web page to view the model.

TerraExplorer has been around a lot longer (years) than Keyhole or
Google Earth. I haven't used in years though. I do remember that some
of the aerial photographs had much higher detail than in Google Earth.

---
Bob Lipman
http://cic.nist.gov/vrml/vbdetect.html

Dale

2006-01-09, 11:21 pm

"simon" <psiplace@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1136824035.794791.245180@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
>
> you might be interested in this, a study i did of proto's in the
> various browsers:
>
> http://vrml.portland.co.uk/conforma...type/index.html
>
> <snip>
> Summary: more to less conforming browser
>
> Cosmo, Xj3d, Cortona, Octagon, Flux, Blaxxun, FreeWrl
>
> So; if you test in FreeWrl, and don't check against other browsers or
> the spec. you're least likely to have a working proto for Cosmo.,
> conversely working protos in Cosmo are likely to work in FreeWrl.
> </snip>
>
> blaxxun protos have a lot of problems, so develop in them and you end
> up with protos that only work in blaxxun.

Oh, that explains it. Blaxxun has been my favorite plugin, so naturally all
my protos work just fine in Blaxxun. I guess I need to expand my horizons.
Actually, now I'm also experienced at php, so I could probably detect the
plugin (maybe?) and supply wrl tailored to the plugin in use.

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI

2006-01-12, 6:15 am

> Cortona will just ignore
> a script if it gets too busy.

This is recommended practise of the VRML standard:

http://www.web3d.org/x3d/specificat...Ref.html#Script

"If the Script node's mustEvaluate field is FALSE, the browser may delay
sending input events to the script until its outputs are needed by the
browser. If the mustEvaluate field is TRUE, the browser shall send input
events to the script as soon as possible, regardless of whether the outputs
are needed. The mustEvaluate field shall be set to TRUE only if the Script
node has effects that are not known to the browser (such as sending
information across the network). Otherwise, poor performance may result."

so long
MUFTI
--
Einzelne Beiträge waren mit dem grafischen Signet eines lachenden
Gesichts versehen.
Bayerischer Verwaltungsgerichtshof 3.6 2002, AZ: 7 CS 02.875, Stichwort: 8-)

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI

2006-01-12, 6:15 am

> After reading your post, I just tried to load a VRML scene in FireFox
> 1.0.7. It shows me the "additionnal plugin required" message, whereas
> I've BlaxxunContact 5 installed on my PC.

> Any idea ?

Are you sure, the website was really containing a true "VRML scene"
with the "model/vrml" MIME type?
Worlds with Blaxxun extensions are often publiced with a special
"application/x-cc3d" MIME type. Sometimes VRML worlds without Blaxxun
extensions are also publiced with this MIME type.
There is also a earlier "x-world/x-vrml" MIME type for browsers which are
additional capable to display VRML 1.0 scenes.
In some cases, playing with the webbrowser plugin configuration may help...

so long
MUFTI
--
Einzelne Beiträge waren mit dem grafischen Signet eines lachenden
Gesichts versehen.
Bayerischer Verwaltungsgerichtshof 3.6 2002, AZ: 7 CS 02.875, Stichwort: 8-)

O.L.

2006-01-12, 6:44 pm

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI avait énoncé :
>
>
> Are you sure, the website was really containing a true "VRML scene"
> with the "model/vrml" MIME type?
> Worlds with Blaxxun extensions are often publiced with a special
> "application/x-cc3d" MIME type. Sometimes VRML worlds without Blaxxun
> extensions are also publiced with this MIME type.
> There is also a earlier "x-world/x-vrml" MIME type for browsers which are
> additional capable to display VRML 1.0 scenes.
> In some cases, playing with the webbrowser plugin configuration may help...
>
> so long
> MUFTI

Hello,

I tried differents things, like using a PHP script which writes the
appropriate Content-type: header, but nothing works :(
It shows me a download dialog box, with a message : "You choosed to
open <test.php> which is a file of type : VRML File ... etc" (sorry for
the translations ^^).

I'll try to download the newest US version of FireFox.

Bye
O.L.

--
Olivier Ligny
Créateur web free-lance / www.cyber-tamtam.net

O.L.

2006-01-12, 6:44 pm

O.L. avait énoncé :
> Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI avait énoncé :
>
> Hello,
>
> I tried differents things, like using a PHP script which writes the
> appropriate Content-type: header, but nothing works :(
> It shows me a download dialog box, with a message : "You choosed to open
> <test.php> which is a file of type : VRML File ... etc" (sorry for the
> translations ^^).
>
> I'll try to download the newest US version of FireFox.

No change with FireFox v1.5 (fr) :(
Does it work on your computer ?

--
Olivier Ligny
Créateur web free-lance / www.cyber-tamtam.net

fabricator

2006-01-13, 3:17 am

Firefox is probabaly refering to the ActiveX container which is needed
to run some browser plugins.

I can't remember if I needed to copy any Blaxxun Contact files into the
Firefox install folder or not.

simon

2006-01-13, 10:27 pm

not hard to change your protos, normally pulling together all the nodes
at the root of the proto, into a group, ( blaxxun incorrectly displays
all the root nodes, when it should only display the first.) and fixing
the multiple instance bug;

see "strange bug with strange work-round in blaxxun contact" this group
8/11/2005.

will do it.

BTW. no browser does root nodes in protos right, except cosmo, but that
crashes on one the simple tests!