VRML - ALL SHOULD READ THIS....LarryR SFWEB3D Cube3

Author

ALL SHOULD READ THIS....LarryR SFWEB3D Cube3

cube3

2004-09-01, 4:16 am

http://flux.typepad.com/the_flux_papers/

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI

2004-09-01, 12:17 pm

> As I mentioned to Alan months ago- "damn, you really need an installer that
> regular people can figure out"lol;)

Months ago, not years ago ?

http://www.xj3d.org/download.html

| Grab it here Xj3D-M9-full.exe |
| Mirror1 It includes all the necessary programs(Java, Java3D...)
| so its large(20 meg).

What do you think is further needed ?

Sure, it there is no install executable to for the Xj3D development snapshots,
but do you really think, this is needed ?

> making/creating a .wrl or .x3d file is NOT the issue, supporting it and
> publishing so thats is reliably viewable in a Browser IS... thats the core
> reason there was NO VRML /web3d design rush as with FLash....

I see it different. The question about "reliably viewable in a Browser"
is mainly a question of available/affordable tools and education.

The main problem in .wrl creation are frustrated users, who tried to build
a world with a movie 3D modeller like 3D Studio MAX, maya or Cinema4D etc.
and ended with VRML file with 4 artistic interesting tubes using
2 million polygons 8-(

What is really missing is a affordable and efficent meshreducer.
And it looks like there is nothing about it in the Vizx3D features list 8-(
(BTW: the free cosmoworlds IRIX version include a meshreducer...)

Tools with NURBS support will ease the polygon pain, but it do not
solve the problem, that one click in 3D Studio MAX, maya, Cinema4D etc.
can let explode the polygons numbers 8-(

For a big group of users i know (architect students), it is not a option to
switch to a lowpolygon modelling tool like wings3D, white_dune, spazz3D,
Vizx3D, etc.

This users want to build a movie with something like 3D Studio MAX, maya,
Cinema4D and a want to export the result to VRML at the end.

A good meshreducer is the only thing, that would really help this people 8-(

> NO way to
> resale it or publish it at the same cost/ease/client comfort as flash
> offered.

I am not a export about the macromedia tools, but for me, they do not
look more or less comfortable as most 3D based animation tools.

What made flash popular was not a technical or administrive question,
it was simply a hype at the right time.

It is difficult (or impossible) to plan to start such a hype.

But i can assure you, that throwing dirt to the X3D predecessor VRML97 and
the available free tools will be counterproductive to start such a hype 8-(

> Linux, ...frankly my business and clients and their audience today are 99.9%
> IE windows,,,, so i really have much financial interest in linux vrml
> browsers today.

Real software do not care much about operation system dependencies 8-)

In the times of java, OpenGL and "X11 everywhere" it is a anachronism
that white_dune also can use the M$Windows API 8-)

> CRC, not to start a flame war, or a SOUTH PARK movie sequel, but
> Canada?!..lol

You did not know about 3D and Canada ? 8-)

Major players like ATI or 3D Studio MAX/Autodesk are Canada.

Take a look at the map and you will find out that there is world beond
Silicon Valley 8-)

And with the current concurrency cannibalism in the 3D modelling buisness,
i would not wonder, if Canada would try to conquer you earlier, as you
may think 8-)

> much chance as becoming a leader in web3d commercial technolgies as does a
> florida ice hockey team winning any games ever in canada.:)

If Mr. Bush's brother is the referee, there is a big chance 8-)

> Most people do believe "YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR" in business... SO....

So Linux would not exist. Looks like this is the offical SCO view 8-)

so long
MUFTI
--
Wenn Ihr CD-ROM Antrieb Brief d nicht ist, tauschen Sie ihren CDROM Antrieb
fuer d in der Fuehrung aus.
(aus einem Softwarehandbuch, Stichworte: drive und letter)

Robert Ludewig

2004-09-01, 11:17 pm

Now that was a really competent statement.
Are you sure you understood the idea behind x3d? In my opinion the evolution
to x3d was a good idea. Only it went not far enough and probally will just
like vrml be a dead born child.
BTW all I was complaining about in vrml and x3d is the lack of intergation
of innovative (and not so innovative anymore - but still missing) rendering
techniques into vrml/x3d.
Even shockwave3d (wich did not change since version 8.5) is more advanced
than vrml ....

cube3

2004-09-02, 12:18 pm

most of those users dont know anything about realtime 3d issues, they came
to 3d from illustration and web design...theyll have to learn about it the
same they had to learn about how to lathe an object....

all those canadian 3ders ARE commercial companies, unless theyll give me all
there apps for free, :)
so is mindavenue, etc. maker of a very good realtime 3d app for web3d....
each has earned the commercial respect of its paying clients and thier
customers....

CRC is not a commercial company. is it? so unlijke the aboves companies
commercial products it s freewrl willnot be marketinf profesionally..
BTW- profesional marketing IS how you build HYPE. and it does WORK......
BTW- Flash was financed by macromedia as a comercial endevour, that
succeeded (short term i beleive) as the first profesional web media type for
designers...it was hype, it worked fine as a tool and media that UPPED the
level of web site production values and brought advertisers into the web..

let us hope X3D and tools that create/play it online can be as blessed...

larryr

"Cecile Muller" <spam@wildpeaks.com> wrote in message
news:aff31ac6.0409010954.2aba5f1b@posting.google.com...
>
> Those who end up with 2 million polygons have a big problem: they
> don't understand the basics of realtime 3D graphics, VRML or not (such
> as other web3d or games).

Andrea

2004-09-03, 12:17 pm

"cube3" <cube3@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<OmwXc.12045$QU5.1257@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>...
> http://flux.typepad.com/the_flux_papers/

I agree that VRML is still in many ways more advanced than many of the
proprietary and game engines. VRML is not dead just born premature, so
many 3D graphics packages like Lightwave, Maya, and 3DStudio Max
support VRML exports, so for the artists VRML is still alive, much
more alive than many of the companies that came to the web3d roundup
at Siggraph 2001,promising to be the next big thing. They are gone,
VRML is still around, which is to me a confirmation that VRML was and
still is the real thing and they were not.

Thank god that VRML wasn't reliant on any one company investing money
to stay in business,or it would have died back in 2001. This should be
the right time to promote VRML, it was never an ugly baby.
Andrea
http://www.andrearogers.com

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI

2004-09-05, 11:17 pm

> Are you sure you understood the idea behind x3d? In my opinion the evolution
> to x3d was a good idea.

Did you understood, that the main advance in X3D is not the fact we have
now a H-ANIM or DIS or Geometry2D ?

The main advance is the segmention into different profiles.
This allows to include new things very much easier and faster.

so long
MUFTI
--
Eine Unter-Speisekarte wird erscheinen, in der Sie waehlen koennen,
entweder zu spielen, oder das Video zu schlingen.
(aus einem Software-Handbuch, Stichworte: menu und loop)

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI

2004-09-05, 11:17 pm

>> You never used the vrml extensions i'm guessing ?

> I was talking about the vrml standard. Those extensions are not vrml..

Hmm, this is not so clear. The VRML standard defines in Annex F how to
make extensions.

http://www.web3d.org/x3d/specificat...extensions.html

> Vrml files that use extension will not run in most vrml-viewers (only in the
> one the extension is for).

Some (not all) extensions can be implemented with EXTERNPROTOs and scripts.
For example, before Amendment 1, NURBS geometry was a such extension, and
is is possible to implement it via EXTERNPROTOs and scripts.

http://www.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de...face/index.html

If your browser support it natively, it works fast, otherwise it works slow.
But speed is not really part of the specification...

And there is a lot, you can do with scripts. For example you can make
a particle source for silly physics simulation with a few hundred lines of code:

http://www.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de...les/bubbles.wrl

so long
MUFTI
--
Eine Unter-Speisekarte wird erscheinen, in der Sie waehlen koennen,
entweder zu spielen, oder das Video zu schlingen.
(aus einem Software-Handbuch, Stichworte: menu und loop)

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI

2004-09-05, 11:17 pm

> browser thinks its up to it, then the browser, with the aid of any new
> hardware algorithms/optimisations, should get on with it. Which, by
> the way, means that all the old worlds might suddenly get shadows! and
> more.

Unfortunatly not, till we all have machines which are very much faster
then today 8-(

Today realtime shadow requires to define a light, a shadowcasting object
and a plane and a surface with the shadow on it, see

http://www.bitmanagement.de/develop...directional.wrl

If you do not use tricks like

http://www.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de...ag/schatten.wrl

....

Rendering a scene with shadows for all objects, all lights and all planes
can not be done by a current graphicscard in realtime anymore.
Today you would need a computer with much processors.

so long
MUFTI
--
Eine Unter-Speisekarte wird erscheinen, in der Sie waehlen koennen,
entweder zu spielen, oder das Video zu schlingen.
(aus einem Software-Handbuch, Stichworte: menu und loop)

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI

2004-09-05, 11:17 pm

> X3D tools cost to resale unlimited web3d projects= $600.00 total
> VRML tools (currently supported;) = $1500.00 minumum plus starting
> prices.-if you can figure out the price lists;)

Nice restriction:
So all VRML tools, which are free, are excluded 8-)

BTW: Spazz3D was cheaper than $600.00...

so long
MUFTI
--
Eine Unter-Speisekarte wird erscheinen, in der Sie waehlen koennen,
entweder zu spielen, oder das Video zu schlingen.
(aus einem Software-Handbuch, Stichworte: menu und loop)

cube3

2004-09-05, 11:17 pm

MUFTI-
Since I co-created Vizx3D I should know its price.;)
Commecially its 299.00 so is a commercial licence of Flux Player....thats
600.00 total for the unlimited commercial resale of x3d projects.. what i
said.

NO currently supported VRML player is commercially free. please show us your
commercial uses of bitmanganemnt or octagon or Cortona and ill be glad to
send them your way:)
Do some homework and look at the price sheets from these companies..you cant
resale design work using there VRMLplayers or X3D for that matter for less
then What Ive suggested.
Cosmo and a myriad of other dead projects will still have corporate strings
for resale .

Who offers a FREE COMMERCIAL USAGE- Professional FULLY FEATURED-SUPPORTED
X3D/VRML PLAYER, ?
ID love to talk with them and Santa Claus:)

larry

"Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI" <rusmufti@helpdesk.rus.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote
in message news:cgvokk$b9m$9@infosun2.rus.uni-stuttgart.de...
>
> Nice restriction:
> So all VRML tools, which are free, are excluded 8-)
>
> BTW: Spazz3D was cheaper than $600.00...
>
> so long
> MUFTI
> --
> Eine Unter-Speisekarte wird erscheinen, in der Sie waehlen koennen,
> entweder zu spielen, oder das Video zu schlingen.
> (aus einem Software-Handbuch, Stichworte: menu und loop)

cube3

2004-09-08, 4:16 am

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI

2004-09-08, 12:17 pm

> Xj3D is not exactly what i call readily deployable for client projects by
> most developers.

Can you say, WHY do you have this private opinion - beside the fact, Xj3D is
a unwanted competitor for your merchandise ? 8-)

> But for now i cant figureout how to evem
> install it.;)

Yet another one, who is unable to click to a installer .exe file 8-)

Sure, Xj3D is a bit more tricky to install on a operationsystem like
Linux, but do Flux, Cortona or Octagon run on Linux (without emulating
M$Windows) ?

> FreeWrl is not also ready to prime time IMO as a commercial resale player.

Cause it is named "FreeWrl" not "CommercialWrl" ? 8-)

> Free isnt the issue, supported and marketed as "real" products is my issue.

And you think, there is absolute no contradiction between "free" and
"marketed" ? 8-)

> Support, Contracts etc.

Remember: There is also a company behind the main developers of Xj3D:
Yumetech Inc. So there is no problem, if you really need to buy a contract...

BTW: the organisation behind FreeWRL is a big candian research center
(CRC: Communication Resource Centre Canada)

> I DO business with web3d, no client i have would
> permit a "non commercial logo" to appear on their sponsored work.

Did you really understand, that the license of a software and the
license of work build with this software is different in general ?

E.g. if i create a VRML world with the free tool white_dune from scratch,
this VRML world belongs exclusivly to me and i can do anything with it.

And there is more:
E.g. FreeWRL has been placed under the Gnu Library General Public License.
This means it is legal to build a commercial/closed source solution linked
against the FreeWRL objectcode.

> Or would
> dream of investing thousands of dollars into a project that was based on a
> "hobby" browser

So you think, Yumetech Inc. and CRC Canada are "hobby" institutions ? 8-)

> X3D is not my hobby, its my business and part of my career.

VRML is not my hobby, it is my job to improve a free VRML tool and it is
part of my career.

so long
MUFTI
--
Wenn Sie das Bearbeiten des Bildes beenden, koennen Sie die
Ballabwehrfuehrung benutzen.
(aus einem Softwarehandbuch, Sinn "Ballabwehrfuehrung" unklar (Trackball ?))