VRML - ALL SHOULD READ THIS....LarryR SFWEB3D Cube3

Author

ALL SHOULD READ THIS....LarryR SFWEB3D Cube3

cube3

2004-08-26, 11:16 pm

http://flux.typepad.com/the_flux_papers/

Andrea

2004-08-27, 12:16 pm

"cube3" <cube3@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<OmwXc.12045$QU5.1257@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>...
> http://flux.typepad.com/the_flux_papers/

I agree that VRML is still in many ways more advanced than many of the
proprietary and game engines. VRML is not dead just born premature, so
many 3D graphics packages like Lightwave, Maya, and 3DStudio Max
support VRML exports, so for the artists VRML is still alive, much
more alive than many of the companies that came to the web3d roundup
at Siggraph 2001,promising to be the next big thing. They are gone,
VRML is still around, which is to me a confirmation that VRML was and
still is the real thing and they were not.

Thank god that VRML wasn't reliant on any one company investing money
to stay in business,or it would have died back in 2001. This should be
the right time to promote VRML, it was never an ugly baby.
Andrea
http://www.andrearogers.com

Robert Ludewig

2004-08-27, 7:17 pm

there is literally no serious commercial gamengine that is less advanced
than vrml.
Also most of the properitary 3d standrards are more advanced (shockwave3d,
virtools).

There are so many things you can not do with vrml wich you can do in most
others:

advanced Rendering that utilized todays power of gpus (almost avery pc has a
dx8/ogl1.4 card nowadays)
- making you own shaders
- bumpmapping
- normalmapping
- layerd textures
- shadows
- reflections

physics

procedural gemoetry calculation (like tesselation based on cameraposition or
geometry deformation at runtime etc. with acceptable performance)

so basically by features you could compare vrm,l with the old quake2 engine.
(But still htere are features in quake2 engine that could not be realized
with vrml)

Robert Ludewig

2004-08-27, 7:17 pm

also all those modelling sw packages you spoke of they sure have such an
vrml exporter, but they finished developing it any further 3dsmax AND maya
at least did not change anything in that vrmlexporter since 3dsmax5 / maya4
allthough there are stiil features left that those exportesr do not yet
support and both exportes still have bugs

jake reid

2004-08-27, 7:17 pm

Re: ALL SHOULD READ THIS.......X3D is the bullshitters version of VRML
The important thing is the real people know it and boy are the
bullshitters sick. Vrml was an advanced concept before it`s time,now
is the time! Instead of creating within it`s potential some have
sought favour and niches for themselves with crap wanabees. Vrml and
it`s browsers are there use them and cut the crap wanabees the two C`s
rule!
Cortona
Contact

Jake the PG fan.
Tin lid now in place and dug in.

simon

2004-08-29, 11:15 pm

i can't understand why this is so difficult;

VRML defines a 3D world, it's up to the browser to figure out what it
looks like.
( except for surface appearance, which is not 3d, and so is described
directly. )

hence, no reference to technicalities of presentation in VRML, if the
browser thinks its up to it, then the browser, with the aid of any new
hardware algorithms/optimisations, should get on with it. Which, by
the way, means that all the old worlds might suddenly get shadows! and
more.

it seems to me that this separation between definition and
presentation is the whole point of VRML! like the semantic web.

( sorry for the rant, but i've seen this misunderstanding more than a
few times before.)

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI

2004-08-30, 7:17 pm

> there is literally no serious commercial gamengine that is less advanced
> than vrml.

Sure. VRML is a ISO standard (the highest form of a internation standard),
not a product of a company (or tinkerer), that can do anything without the
need to ask anybody.

If you would by screws, would you buy always the most advanced screws, or
would you prefer to by standard screws ?

> advanced Rendering that utilized todays power of gpus (almost avery pc has a
> dx8/ogl1.4 card nowadays)
> - making you own shaders
> - bumpmapping
> - normalmapping
> - layerd textures
> - shadows
> - reflections

Hopefully we will see similar things via the extension option in X3D (next
generation option)

http://www.web3d.org/x3d/workgroups/x3d-shaders.html

> physics

Physics are simulation, not visualisation. VRML is still a standard for
visualisation. BTW: most "real world" physics simulation can not be done
in realtime...

> procedural gemoetry calculation (like tesselation based on cameraposition or
> geometry deformation at runtime etc. with acceptable performance)

It is funny, but VRML97 has geometry deformation at runtime

http://www.web3d.org/x3d/specificat...rdinateDeformer

but it looks like there is no similar node in X3D 8-(

so long
MUFTI
--
Eine Unter-Speisekarte wird erscheinen, in der Sie waehlen koennen,
entweder zu spielen, oder das Video zu schlingen.
(aus einem Software-Handbuch, Stichworte: menu und loop)

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI

2004-08-30, 7:17 pm

> Are you sure you understood the idea behind x3d? In my opinion the evolution
> to x3d was a good idea.

Did you understood, that the main advance in X3D is not the fact we have
now a H-ANIM or DIS or Geometry2D ?

The main advance is the segmention into different profiles.
This allows to include new things very much easier and faster.

so long
MUFTI
--
Eine Unter-Speisekarte wird erscheinen, in der Sie waehlen koennen,
entweder zu spielen, oder das Video zu schlingen.
(aus einem Software-Handbuch, Stichworte: menu und loop)

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI

2004-08-30, 7:17 pm

>> You never used the vrml extensions i'm guessing ?

> I was talking about the vrml standard. Those extensions are not vrml..

Hmm, this is not so clear. The VRML standard defines in Annex F how to
make extensions.

http://www.web3d.org/x3d/specificat...extensions.html

> Vrml files that use extension will not run in most vrml-viewers (only in the
> one the extension is for).

Some (not all) extensions can be implemented with EXTERNPROTOs and scripts.
For example, before Amendment 1, NURBS geometry was a such extension, and
is is possible to implement it via EXTERNPROTOs and scripts.

http://www.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de...face/index.html

If your browser support it natively, it works fast, otherwise it works slow.
But speed is not really part of the specification...

And there is a lot, you can do with scripts. For example you can make
a particle source for silly physics simulation with a few hundred lines of code:

http://www.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de...les/bubbles.wrl

so long
MUFTI
--
Eine Unter-Speisekarte wird erscheinen, in der Sie waehlen koennen,
entweder zu spielen, oder das Video zu schlingen.
(aus einem Software-Handbuch, Stichworte: menu und loop)

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI

2004-08-30, 7:17 pm

> browser thinks its up to it, then the browser, with the aid of any new
> hardware algorithms/optimisations, should get on with it. Which, by
> the way, means that all the old worlds might suddenly get shadows! and
> more.

Unfortunatly not, till we all have machines which are very much faster
then today 8-(

Today realtime shadow requires to define a light, a shadowcasting object
and a plane and a surface with the shadow on it, see

http://www.bitmanagement.de/develop...directional.wrl

If you do not use tricks like

http://www.csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de...ag/schatten.wrl

....

Rendering a scene with shadows for all objects, all lights and all planes
can not be done by a current graphicscard in realtime anymore.
Today you would need a computer with much processors.

so long
MUFTI
--
Eine Unter-Speisekarte wird erscheinen, in der Sie waehlen koennen,
entweder zu spielen, oder das Video zu schlingen.
(aus einem Software-Handbuch, Stichworte: menu und loop)

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI

2004-08-30, 7:17 pm

> X3D tools cost to resale unlimited web3d projects= $600.00 total
> VRML tools (currently supported;) = $1500.00 minumum plus starting
> prices.-if you can figure out the price lists;)

Nice restriction:
So all VRML tools, which are free, are excluded 8-)

BTW: Spazz3D was cheaper than $600.00...

so long
MUFTI
--
Eine Unter-Speisekarte wird erscheinen, in der Sie waehlen koennen,
entweder zu spielen, oder das Video zu schlingen.
(aus einem Software-Handbuch, Stichworte: menu und loop)

cube3

2004-08-30, 7:17 pm

MUFTI-
Since I co-created Vizx3D I should know its price.;)
Commecially its 299.00 so is a commercial licence of Flux Player....thats
600.00 total for the unlimited commercial resale of x3d projects.. what i
said.

NO currently supported VRML player is commercially free. please show us your
commercial uses of bitmanganemnt or octagon or Cortona and ill be glad to
send them your way:)
Do some homework and look at the price sheets from these companies..you cant
resale design work using there VRMLplayers or X3D for that matter for less
then What Ive suggested.
Cosmo and a myriad of other dead projects will still have corporate strings
for resale .

Who offers a FREE COMMERCIAL USAGE- Professional FULLY FEATURED-SUPPORTED
X3D/VRML PLAYER, ?
ID love to talk with them and Santa Claus:)

larry

"Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI" <rusmufti@helpdesk.rus.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote
in message news:cgvokk$b9m$9@infosun2.rus.uni-stuttgart.de...
>
> Nice restriction:
> So all VRML tools, which are free, are excluded 8-)
>
> BTW: Spazz3D was cheaper than $600.00...
>
> so long
> MUFTI
> --
> Eine Unter-Speisekarte wird erscheinen, in der Sie waehlen koennen,
> entweder zu spielen, oder das Video zu schlingen.
> (aus einem Software-Handbuch, Stichworte: menu und loop)

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI

2004-08-30, 11:16 pm

> NO currently supported VRML player is commercially free.

You would not count Xj3D as a VRML player ?
(FreeWRL is also fast improving...)

> Who offers a FREE COMMERCIAL USAGE- Professional FULLY FEATURED-SUPPORTED
> X3D/VRML PLAYER, ?

Same game again: if it is FREE, you would not count it as "Professional" 8-)

BTW: i think you underestimate cosmoplayer...

so long
MUFTI
--
Eine Unter-Speisekarte wird erscheinen, in der Sie waehlen koennen,
entweder zu spielen, oder das Video zu schlingen.
(aus einem Software-Handbuch, Stichworte: menu und loop)

Robert Ludewig

2004-08-31, 4:17 am

> The main advance is the segmention into different profiles.
> This allows to include new things very much easier and faster.

Thats exactly what I had in mind. It is XML now. That made my life easier.
Now I can use the XML libs in .net and java to easily parse and produce
scenes.....

Robert Ludewig

2004-08-31, 4:17 am

"simon" <psiplace@netscape.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:3d08d857.0408291148.548da5cf@posting.google.com...
>i can't understand why this is so difficult;
>
> VRML defines a 3D world, it's up to the browser to figure out what it
> looks like.
> ( except for surface appearance, which is not 3d, and so is described
> directly. )
>
> hence, no reference to technicalities of presentation in VRML, if the
> browser thinks its up to it, then the browser, with the aid of any new
> hardware algorithms/optimisations, should get on with it. Which, by
> the way, means that all the old worlds might suddenly get shadows! and
> more.
>
> it seems to me that this separation between definition and
> presentation is the whole point of VRML! like the semantic web.
>
> ( sorry for the rant, but i've seen this misunderstanding more than a
> few times before.)

There is no separation between definition and presentation in vrml. When you
_design_ a world, you want it to look in a certain way. I.e. create a
certain mood, want to have certain visual effects. Certain light.
That means you need control (and have it) over the appearance of every
aspect in you 3d world. That includes that YOU control, wether there are
shadows in your world or not.

For separation between definition and presentation we needed some kind of
css for 3D ....

Robert Ludewig

2004-08-31, 4:17 am

>> advanced Rendering that utilized todays power of gpus (almost avery pc
>
> Hopefully we will see similar things via the extension option in X3D (next
> generation option)

Yeah:
[color=darkred]
http://www.web3d.org/x3d/workgroups...aders_proposal/

[color=darkred]

<MultiTexture> node

with different modes:
mode="DOTPRODUCT3"
mode="MODULATE"

it's there ...

cube3

2004-08-31, 7:16 am

right. cosmoplayer is ready for a big comeback...lol

Xj3D is not exactly what i call readily deployable for client projects by
most developers. one day maybe. But for now i cant figureout how to evem
install it.;) sorry guys:)
FreeWrl is not also ready to prime time IMO as a commercial resale player.

Free isnt the issue, supported and marketed as "real" products is my issue.
Support, Contracts etc. I DO business with web3d, no client i have would
permit a "non commercial logo" to appear on their sponsored work. Or would
dream of investing thousands of dollars into a project that was based on a
"hobby" browser ora long dead unknown statused browser such as Cosmoplayer
2.5.

I could see Contact, Cortona, Flux
and Octagon as possible candidatesfor X3D/VRML commercial resale projects.
Ones that require a full players capabilities. And basic business due
dillegence for a client .

Check them. see Im correct. Flux at 299.00 offers the best value that I can
see. And its truly dedicated to X3D and future capabilities, not gonna
happen for cosmoplyer:)

X3D is not my hobby, its my business and part of my career.
LarryR.

"Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI" <rusmufti@helpdesk.rus.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote
in message news:ch04t8$rnv$2@infosun2.rus.uni-stuttgart.de...
>
> You would not count Xj3D as a VRML player ?
> (FreeWRL is also fast improving...)
>
FEATURED-SUPPORTED[color=darkred]
>
> Same game again: if it is FREE, you would not count it as "Professional"
8-)
>
> BTW: i think you underestimate cosmoplayer...
>
> so long
> MUFTI
> --
> Eine Unter-Speisekarte wird erscheinen, in der Sie waehlen koennen,
> entweder zu spielen, oder das Video zu schlingen.
> (aus einem Software-Handbuch, Stichworte: menu und loop)

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI

2004-08-31, 12:19 pm

> Xj3D is not exactly what i call readily deployable for client projects by
> most developers.

Can you say, WHY do you have this private opinion - beside the fact, Xj3D is
a unwanted competitor for your merchandise ? 8-)

> But for now i cant figureout how to evem
> install it.;)

Yet another one, who is unable to click to a installer .exe file 8-)

Sure, Xj3D is a bit more tricky to install on a operationsystem like
Linux, but do Flux, Cortona or Octagon run on Linux (without emulating
M$Windows) ?

> FreeWrl is not also ready to prime time IMO as a commercial resale player.

Cause it is named "FreeWrl" not "CommercialWrl" ? 8-)

> Free isnt the issue, supported and marketed as "real" products is my issue.

And you think, there is absolute no contradiction between "free" and
"marketed" ? 8-)

> Support, Contracts etc.

Remember: There is also a company behind the main developers of Xj3D:
Yumetech Inc. So there is no problem, if you really need to buy a contract...

BTW: the organisation behind FreeWRL is a big candian research center
(CRC: Communication Resource Centre Canada)

> I DO business with web3d, no client i have would
> permit a "non commercial logo" to appear on their sponsored work.

Did you really understand, that the license of a software and the
license of work build with this software is different in general ?

E.g. if i create a VRML world with the free tool white_dune from scratch,
this VRML world belongs exclusivly to me and i can do anything with it.

And there is more:
E.g. FreeWRL has been placed under the Gnu Library General Public License.
This means it is legal to build a commercial/closed source solution linked
against the FreeWRL objectcode.

> Or would
> dream of investing thousands of dollars into a project that was based on a
> "hobby" browser

So you think, Yumetech Inc. and CRC Canada are "hobby" institutions ? 8-)

> X3D is not my hobby, its my business and part of my career.

VRML is not my hobby, it is my job to improve a free VRML tool and it is
part of my career.

so long
MUFTI
--
Wenn Sie das Bearbeiten des Bildes beenden, koennen Sie die
Ballabwehrfuehrung benutzen.
(aus einem Softwarehandbuch, Sinn "Ballabwehrfuehrung" unklar (Trackball ?))

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI

2004-08-31, 7:17 pm

>> The main advance is the segmention into different profiles.
[color=darkred]
> Thats exactly what I had in mind. It is XML now. That made my life easier.
> Now I can use the XML libs in .net and java to easily parse and produce
> scenes.....

This is only a technically improvement, but not the major advance.

The major advance is the fact you can define now e.g. a new component for
"supershapes" and try to add it to the standard more easily.

Unlike the old VRML standard, where a browser can only be VRML97 compatible
or not, this is not such a drama anymore.

Somewhere at ISO is a procedure, that allow to build new components or
profiles.

http://www.web3d.org/x3d/specificat...onentprofilereg

In the example, a valid X3D file with "supershapes" must have something
like a

<component name='supershape'/>

statement in the header statements. A browser can now decide, what to
do if it can not support 'supershape'.

This will hopefully lead to a faster innovation cycle then one improvement
every 7 years...

so long
MUFTI
--
Wenn Sie das Bearbeiten des Bildes beenden, koennen Sie die
Ballabwehrfuehrung benutzen.
(aus einem Softwarehandbuch, Sinn "Ballabwehrfuehrung" unklar (Trackball ?))

cube3

2004-08-31, 11:16 pm

I know Yumetech well.:)
As I mentioned to Alan months ago- "damn, you really need an installer that
regular people can figure out"lol;)
BUY a contract/support- a commecial price,,,,geez you keep digging yourself
deeper Mufti... then you get support and the ability to PUBLISH using Xj3D.
I assure you that Yumetech is a buisness but I have not seen them attempt to
sell beyond their clients and attempt to market to customers. There is a
diffference and it affects those who would be customers. not clients. I dont
see Xj3D as competition for my "merchandise'_ whatever that really is- as
you woudlnt know btw-. When I feel its ready for resale/ can be sold to
clients I'll add it to the toolbox for my clients I design for. AS I ALREADY
said, ITS IS getting there. But for know Yumetech as well as many others
keeps its marketing for resale projects using Xj3D down to just about zero
level of effort. They seem clearly to be focused on the correct path for
them, developing tools and tech that they can use to get project work.

making/creating a .wrl or .x3d file is NOT the issue, supporting it and
publishing so thats is reliably viewable in a Browser IS...thats the core
reason there was NO VRML /web3d design rush as with FLash....NO way to
resale it or publish it at the same cost/ease/client comfort as flash
offered. Every Stream per cost method was a resale joke, and even today most
actively supported vrml players come with that biz model attached. All i
have said is that FLux is 299.00 and Vizx cost 299.00 togther 600.00 to make
all the X3D/vrml you want to commercial resale, no moer strings attached.

Linux, ...frankly my business and clients and their audience today are 99.9%
IE windows,,,, so i really have much financial interest in linux vrml
browsers today.

CRC, not to start a flame war, or a SOUTH PARK movie sequel, but
Canada?!..lol come on.....it just aint gonna sell to "amerikans" is buisness
to sell widgets....I personally like Canada, but come on....the CRC has as
much chance as becoming a leader in web3d commercial technolgies as does a
florida ice hockey team winning any games ever in canada.:) Free license or
not.
Whens the last time they took out a full page add in a design
magazine/website that a client could point to and say. lets learn more about
this?...? Its a different game, if they or you dont want to play it fine,
but many Do want to make web3d a profitable business that grows to replace
web2d as the predominant media type for digital.

Most people do believe "YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR" in business... SO....

....Build free VRML tools, congrats, but to me its like building free Amiga
video cards today. Its a nitch that seems more hobby, then growing business.
larry

"Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI" <rusmufti@helpdesk.rus.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote
in message news:ch1lim$2rt$1@infosun2.rus.uni-stuttgart.de...
by[color=darkred]
>
> Can you say, WHY do you have this private opinion - beside the fact, Xj3D
is
> a unwanted competitor for your merchandise ? 8-)
>
>
> Yet another one, who is unable to click to a installer .exe file 8-)
>
> Sure, Xj3D is a bit more tricky to install on a operationsystem like
> Linux, but do Flux, Cortona or Octagon run on Linux (without emulating
> M$Windows) ?
>
player.[color=darkred]
>
> Cause it is named "FreeWrl" not "CommercialWrl" ? 8-)
>
issue.[color=darkred]
>
> And you think, there is absolute no contradiction between "free" and
> "marketed" ? 8-)
>
>
> Remember: There is also a company behind the main developers of Xj3D:
> Yumetech Inc. So there is no problem, if you really need to buy a
contract...
>
> BTW: the organisation behind FreeWRL is a big candian research center
> (CRC: Communication Resource Centre Canada)
>
>
> Did you really understand, that the license of a software and the
> license of work build with this software is different in general ?
>
> E.g. if i create a VRML world with the free tool white_dune from scratch,
> this VRML world belongs exclusivly to me and i can do anything with it.
>
> And there is more:
> E.g. FreeWRL has been placed under the Gnu Library General Public License.
> This means it is legal to build a commercial/closed source solution linked
> against the FreeWRL objectcode.
>
a[color=darkred]
>
> So you think, Yumetech Inc. and CRC Canada are "hobby" institutions ? 8-)
>
>
> VRML is not my hobby, it is my job to improve a free VRML tool and it is
> part of my career.
>
> so long
> MUFTI
> --
> Wenn Sie das Bearbeiten des Bildes beenden, koennen Sie die
> Ballabwehrfuehrung benutzen.
> (aus einem Softwarehandbuch, Sinn "Ballabwehrfuehrung" unklar
(Trackball ?))