VRML - VRML? Time to change this groups name. An SFWEB3D Modest Proposal.

Author

VRML? Time to change this groups name. An SFWEB3D Modest Proposal.

cube3

2004-03-05, 12:29 am

Hello,
Question? Why are we having these threads in a group called comp.lang.vrml
?
I dont want to post here anymore.;) I want to post in a group thats named
after the present/future ISO standard for web3d. X3D. VRML represents the
past and as stated by many leaders in this industry, "VRML can't be marketed
or sold anymore". It's a 1997 sales /marketing and technology capability
conversation. Its like so "over."

So.....Who set's up "comp.lang.x3d" ??? and is that the right title? are
we a language or a media type?......Should we not be "comp.media.x3d"???
or "alt.X3D"???

Im just a designer...But seems to me this newsgroup thing needs a new name ,
something to grow into, not keep us constrained to the past..

Larry Rosenthal
SFWEB3D

jake reid

2004-03-05, 4:28 am

Who is stopping you go away an create your own and leave us happilly
with vrml!!

On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 04:19:38 GMT, "cube3" <cube3@pacbell.net> wrote:

>Hello,
>Question? Why are we having these threads in a group called comp.lang.vrml
>?
>I dont want to post here anymore.;) I want to post in a group thats named
>after the present/future ISO standard for web3d. X3D. VRML represents the
>past and as stated by many leaders in this industry, "VRML can't be marketed
>or sold anymore". It's a 1997 sales /marketing and technology capability
>conversation. Its like so "over."
>
>So.....Who set's up "comp.lang.x3d" ??? and is that the right title? are
>we a language or a media type?......Should we not be "comp.media.x3d"???
>or "alt.X3D"???
>
>Im just a designer...But seems to me this newsgroup thing needs a new name ,
>something to grow into, not keep us constrained to the past..
>
>Larry Rosenthal
>SFWEB3D
>

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI

2004-03-05, 9:29 am

> I dont want to post here anymore.;) I want to post in a group thats named
> after the present/future ISO standard for web3d. X3D.

True for future, but deadly wrong for present.

VRML97 is the current ISO standard for 3D data on the web.

X3D will begin it's life in the moment as the ISO organization accept it.
And the example of void of the NURBS nodes from VRML97 Amendment 1 shows,
that the ISO discussion is able to offer bad surprises for the new
standard 8-(

We can not rename comp.lang.vrml to something, that still do not exist.

Of course it is possible to create new newsgroups.
This is especially easy in the alt.lang hierarchy.

> "VRML can't be marketed
> or sold anymore". It's a 1997 sales /marketing and technology capability
> conversation.
....
> Im just a designer...

I am just a developer of a VRML/X3D authoring tool.
But i am not interesting in selling VRML or X3D.
I build software, not paper 8-)

so long
MUFTI
--
Warning: This paper on SETI@home is written for scientists and engineers.
In order to confuse and obfuscate the public, we utilize substantial
technical jargon.
(Vorwort eines technischen Dokuments)

Cecile Muller

2004-03-05, 4:30 pm

Hmm i thought i had replied that thread already, hmm, or maybe
Google posted it on comp.lang.x3d ;-p

> Question? Why are we having these threads in a group called comp.lang.vrml ?

A wild guess: because most threads are about vrml ? :-p

> I dont want to post here anymore.;)

You can come but you can not leave :-p

> I want to post in a group thats named
> after the present/future ISO standard for web3d. X3D.

So VRML is not a present ISO standard ?? And all the people
that use it, just drop them ?

> VRML represents the past and as stated by many leaders in
> this industry, "VRML can't be marketed or sold anymore".
> It's a 1997 sales /marketing and technology capability
> conversation. Its like so "over."

I think that many still feel that X3D is so "not yet". When we
will have more than one graphical authoring tool and than alpha/beta
viewers, it will be different, not even mentionning that it's not
even a finalized standard as Joerg rightfully mentionned.
Also, i disagree with that VRML is over thing, but my ISP will
think i'm flooding if i start about that subject :-p

> So.....Who set's up "comp.lang.x3d" ??? and is that
> the right title? are we a language or a media type?......Should
> we not be "comp.media.x3d"??? or "alt.X3D"???

comp.media doesn't exists on google's listings, but there
is comp.multimedia, but imho that would fit only additionnally
as it's restrictive about X3D's use, it couldn't be the main newsgroup.
Having a new newsgroup comp.lang.x3d would be good imho as long
as we still keep the comp.lang.vrml one too, people talking
of VRML on comp.lang.vrml, and people talking of X3d on
comp.lang.x3d (and spams on all newsgroups like always aww :)

Larry Rosenthal

2004-03-05, 6:29 pm

"Cecile Muller" <spam@wildpeaks.com> wrote in message
news:aff31ac6.0403051221.4c4548af@posting.google.com...
> Hmm i thought i had replied that thread already, hmm, or maybe
> Google posted it on comp.lang.x3d ;-p
>
>
comp.lang.vrml ?[color=darkred]
>
> A wild guess: because most threads are about vrml ? :-p

Hmm, just did a count for the above and below 40 thread titles....looks like
X3D is mentioned in maybe 30-40%....and a rarely see posts about issues "not
currently important" to the poster:)

>
>
>
> You can come but you can not leave :-p
been here before it even was here.;) but just like the vrml.org becam teh
web3d.org, a larer picture than a "computer language" is the issue.

>
>
>
> So VRML is not a present ISO standard ?? And all the people
> that use it, just drop them ?

ISO since 97(vrml97 at least) , again the "fun" part of your statement is
"all the people". All twelve;)
lol....i still use DXF for 3d import times....but when did you ever see a
job ad, or a new cutting edge design studio/or digtial content house
advertising to its clients, we do DXF.?;)...or for that manner we do VRML,
since 1997....:)...( other than the irish russians we all love;)
>
>
>
> I think that many still feel that X3D is so "not yet". When we
> will have more than one graphical authoring tool and than alpha/beta
> viewers, it will be different, not even mentionning that it's not
> even a finalized standard as Joerg rightfully mentionned.
> Also, i disagree with that VRML is over thing, but my ISP will
> think i'm flooding if i start about that subject :-p

Was VRML ever "it" or "here"....it was always "another revision away from
working"..lol Funny.. I do remember a comp.lang.vrml/or at least a vrml
list before ISO 1997...Also The WEb3d symposium in april has a full X3D day,
not a full VRML day as far as the schedule Ive seen:)----and again 3 X3D
browsers exist out of beta as far as their companies respective websites
indicate. And most vrml only browsers havent been supported for years....

>
>

these are all questions?....there is an alt.3d......why is VRML "only" a
computer language...If i run X3D on my handheld device next year, is that
device a computer?.or is it a "phone?"

[color=darkred]
>
> comp.media doesn't exists on google's listings, but there
> is comp.multimedia, but imho that would fit only additionnally
> as it's restrictive about X3D's use, it couldn't be the main newsgroup.
> Having a new newsgroup comp.lang.x3d would be good imho as long
> as we still keep the comp.lang.vrml one too, people talking
> of VRML on comp.lang.vrml, and people talking of X3d on
> comp.lang.x3d (and spams on all newsgroups like always aww :)

well, obviously i think a x3d named newsgroup is a good idea, but its hard
to not have Luke and Darth not mentioned on the alt.trek boards every day
and Kirk and Spock not showing up at alt.starwars, every other day:)

R. Russell Kinter

2004-03-06, 12:29 am

Ok, you buy me a new computer and I'll go along with it.
Why? because Octagon one of the X3d browsers needs a 64 meg
graphics card to run properly for their X3d stuff. Only one
of their examples will run on my system. Then there's Flux...
Media machines has indicated it's too much trouble to fix
their createDevice() failed bug that seems to be rampant on
older machines such as mine. Meanwhile, almost all VRML runs ok
on my Pentium 4 32meg NVidia 256 RAM machine, even the
polygon laden Spazzed out VRML of Cybertown done by "designers"
and if it doesn't run ok, then it's not worth dealing with.
Sorry, I don't "buy" into needing a new 'puter to do
3D on the web, unless you want to "buy" me one.

"cube3" <cube3@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<udT1c.6103$hC.1399@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>...
> Hello,
> Question? Why are we having these threads in a group called comp.lang.vrml
> ?
> I dont want to post here anymore.;) I want to post in a group thats named
> after the present/future ISO standard for web3d. X3D. VRML represents the
> past and as stated by many leaders in this industry, "VRML can't be marketed
> or sold anymore". It's a 1997 sales /marketing and technology capability
> conversation. Its like so "over."
>
> So.....Who set's up "comp.lang.x3d" ??? and is that the right title? are
> we a language or a media type?......Should we not be "comp.media.x3d"???
> or "alt.X3D"???
>
> Im just a designer...But seems to me this newsgroup thing needs a new name ,
> something to grow into, not keep us constrained to the past..
>
> Larry Rosenthal
> SFWEB3D

jake reid

2004-03-06, 4:28 am

>ISO since 97(vrml97 at least) , again the "fun" part of your statement is
>"all the people". All twelve;)
>lol....i still use DXF for 3d import times....but when did you ever see a
>job ad, or a new cutting edge design studio/or digtial content house
>advertising to its clients, we do DXF.?;)...or for that manner we do VRML,
>since 1997....:)...( other than the irish russians we all love;)
Better kissing an Irish Russian than sucking on a Big Nose![color=darkred]
Big Leaders are scared of vrml who`s pocket are you pushing for?
Boeing is more than happy with vrml of course they are not big are
they? ;-)

Paul Aslin

2004-03-07, 11:29 am

"cube3" <cube3@pacbell.net> wrote in message news:<udT1c.6103$hC.1399@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com>...
> Hello,
> Question? Why are we having these threads in a group called comp.lang.vrml
> ?
> I dont want to post here anymore.;)

So don't. Simple solution.

> I want to post in a group thats named
> after the present/future ISO standard for web3d. X3D. VRML represents the
> past and as stated by many leaders in this industry, "VRML can't be marketed
> or sold anymore". It's a 1997 sales /marketing and technology capability
> conversation. Its like so "over."

Bah humbug Mr scrooge.
Try explaing that to Parallel graphics, Blaxxun, Bitmanagement. Oh and
lightwave, 3DS MAX, truespace, and counless other professional 3D
applications all export to vrml.

Oh and x3d is 99% vrml perhaps more than that actually.

> So.....Who set's up "comp.lang.x3d" ???

Simple solution go buy a server, grab the software to run a newsgroup
server and do it yourself!

What's that your new group is not available worldwide, takes ages to
appear and requires months, or years of virtual paper work to get
approved ? Now you know why the new x3d standard isn't finished yet
LOL

> and is that the right title? are
> we a language or a media type?......Should we not be "comp.media.x3d"???
> or "alt.X3D"???

NO...
its a language in the same way english is.

> Im just a designer...But seems to me this newsgroup thing needs a new name ,
> something to grow into, not keep us constrained to the past..

Newsgroups have rules, and admins (not that you would notice).
You are free to create new newsgroups but NOT to rename existing ones.
Of course you have to prove the need for a new group.

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI

2004-03-08, 7:28 am

> I think that many still feel that X3D is so "not yet". When we
> will have more than one graphical authoring tool

There is more than one graphical authoring tool. Vizx3d and x3dedit 8-)
And cause of the allowed VRML encoding in the X3D draft, the old
VRML97 graphical authoring tools are also X3D graphical authoring
tools 8-)

so long
MUFTI
--
Muschelfluchtabfolge
(Stichwort: Shell escape)

Heiko Recktenwald

2004-03-08, 7:29 pm

Paul Aslin <fabricatorgeneral@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Newsgroups have rules, and admins (not that you would notice).
> You are free to create new newsgroups but NOT to rename existing ones.
> Of course you have to prove the need for a new group.

And it is also a "good design" question.........

Maybe in markets, that want everything to look "new", renaming of things has
some market value, but renaming of well known things introduces confusion. See
how vendors of computers, Redmond, Cupertino is strong in this, make
things bad by renaming them or introducing their own confusing names.

H.

Andrea

2004-03-09, 7:29 am

me@privacy.net (Heiko Recktenwald) wrote in message news:<j2hg2c.t01.ln@localhost.alleswirdgruen.er>...
> Paul Aslin <fabricatorgeneral@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> And it is also a "good design" question.........
>
> Maybe in markets, that want everything to look "new", renaming of things has
> some market value, but renaming of well known things introduces confusion. See
> how vendors of computers, Redmond, Cupertino is strong in this, make
> things bad by renaming them or introducing their own confusing names.
>
>
> H.

I keep hearing about how mp4 and X3D are the "next big thing", but
VRML is here to stay, besides X3D sounds like ex-3D("That was my 3D
now it's my ex"), and mp4 is proprietary and half baked.

I can't just sit on my hands and wait for "the next big thing" to
materialize, I need VRML now, and there is plenty of support for
modeling programs if you aren't a programmer, and plenty of support to
go around if you are.

Thank god that some company doesn't own VRML, and can't just kill it
off as last years model, just so that they can change the grill plate
or the bumpers or give a new name in hopes that you'll spend your
money on "the next big thing". VRML is reliable and
upgradable,customizable and hotrod-able on it's own. Long live VRML.

Andrea
http://www.syntheticplanet.com
http://www.andrearogers.com

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI

2004-03-09, 9:29 am

>> Maybe in markets, that want everything to look "new", renaming of things has[color=darkred]

BTW: "X3D" is also the name of a brand for shutter glasses:

See http://www.x3dworld.com/

They are strong in advertising: the chess play "Kasparov versus X3D Fritz-one"
has been publiced in the german media....

So don't worry, when you get questions about shutterglasses when you talk
about X3D next time.

Your communication partner did not worry something about shutterglasses
supporting VRML/X3D applications like cortona, cc3d-stereo, cover/covise,
white_dune/Linux or cosmoworlds/IRIX.

Your communication partner simply talk about X3D...

so long
MUFTI
--
Microsoft Visual SourceSafe
? Adding more than 150 files is not recommended.
Windows may fail to add all selected files. Continue ?
Yes No Help

Heiko Recktenwald

2004-03-10, 9:30 pm

Andrea <rogers1987@msn.com> wrote:
> I keep hearing about how mp4 and X3D are the "next big thing", but
> VRML is here to stay, besides X3D sounds like ex-3D("That was my 3D
> now it's my ex"), and mp4 is proprietary and half baked.

Dont know how 3D mp4 is. Gifs and mp3s are proprietary too, in theory.
Did anybody ever really pay for the mp3 standard? Maybe vendors of
mp3 players. Vendors of mp3 chips. Apple and Microsoft.
Mp3s and mp4s may be proprietary, but they are also somehow
"vendor and platform independent", neither Apple nor Microsoft...

The law,

H.

Heiko Recktenwald

2004-03-10, 10:29 pm

>> now it's my ex"), and mp4 is proprietary and half baked.
>
> Dont know how 3D mp4 is. Gifs and mp3s are proprietary too, in theory.

VRML as a standard. I like 1.0, less is more, arent there more players
flying around? At least it once was. Cosmo. This was something.

Must confess that I am playing with possession and copyright and MIME.
The copyright comes not from one MIME type, but from two.
Dont know if this is the right place to discuss the topic, if it is usefull,
I think it is, users against industry, something like this, something
like GNU, GNU is copyright!

H.

http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs106/ -- The MPEG Video Playlist game.

Andrea

2004-03-11, 8:29 am

me@privacy.net (Heiko Recktenwald) wrote in message news:<0aho2c.601.ln@localhost.alleswirdgruen.er>...
>
> VRML as a standard. I like 1.0, less is more, arent there more players
> flying around? At least it once was. Cosmo. This was something.
>
> Must confess that I am playing with possession and copyright and MIME.
> The copyright comes not from one MIME type, but from two.
> Dont know if this is the right place to discuss the topic, if it is usefull,
> I think it is, users against industry, something like this, something
> like GNU, GNU is copyright!
>
> H.
>
>
> http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs106/ -- The MPEG Video Playlist game.

I'm thinking about listing all of my online worlds and everything in
them as creative commons share alike.

I think that copyrights are tremendously abused by greedy companies
out to steal and control the creative output of artists, like the bee
keepers who steal the honey from the bees.

Creative people should be the ones to control thier own copyrights,
and promote more creativity.
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/1.0/
:)
Andrea

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI

2004-03-11, 9:30 am

> VRML as a standard. I like 1.0

VRML97 is a international ISO standard.
VRML 1.0 is a wannabe "standard", like a lot of other wannabe "standard"s.

> arent there more players
> flying around?

VRML 1.0 is very connected to the Inventor fileformat.
Inventor is a 3D library on top of OpenGL. So any Inventor program can
easily read any Inventor file (and cause of the similarity a lot of VRML 1.0
files) with only a single line.
Inventor/VRML 1.0 only define geometry/color, only with a HTTP-link extension.
Therefore any simply CAD-type program using Inventor can be seen as a
nearly perfect VRML 1.0 browser...

There are also VRML97 import libraries with similar capabilities, but
Inventor programs are far more widespread.

> The copyright comes not from one MIME type, but from two.

Can you explain ?

A copyright has do with permission to use/sell/print a document or other
artistic thing.

MIME types (Multipurpose Internet Mail Extensions) are strings, to mark the
content of a file.

I see no connection between this two things.

so long
MUFTI
--
Auf \ \blabla\base kann nicht zugegriffen werden. Die angegebenen
Referenzen passen nicht zu einer bestehenden Referenzmenge.
(aus einer M$Windows Fehlermeldung, Stichwort: credentials)

Heiko Recktenwald

2004-03-12, 11:34 am

> The copyright comes not from one MIME type, but from two.
> Dont know if this is the right place to discuss the topic, if it is usefull,

Two, there is some steering necessary, and I can dictate rules.
I like (a) at http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs106/naming.html .
Educated users. Privacy etc. MIME in Win 2000 pro, is it better in XP?
Dont you think Real Networks can defend their audio/x-pn-realaudio?
And a sinecure.

Pacific palisades ;-)

H.

Heiko Recktenwald

2004-03-12, 4:31 pm

Andrea <rogers1987@msn.com> wrote:
[color=darkred]
> I think that copyrights are tremendously abused by greedy companies
> out to steal and control the creative output of artists, like the bee
> keepers who steal the honey from the bees.

You are running into open doors ;-)

But law is law and GNU is exercise of copyright too.
What interests me most is the relation of DRM and copyright.
You dont have fair use etc and DRM makes it all a pure technical problem.
And I think that works of art, Madonna etc too, need some "grey space"
around, people must talk about it or nobody buys it. Hope you get what I mean.

>
> Creative people should be the ones to control thier own copyrights,
> and promote more creativity.
> http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/1.0/

Anglo saxon countries and the continent, where you cannot transfer
everything.

The history of copyright is rather interesting.

H.

Heiko Recktenwald

2004-03-12, 4:31 pm

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI <rusmufti@helpdesk.rus.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote:

>
> Can you explain ?

This is this "MPEG Video Playlist game" (c) below, the two MIME types
are just elements, like stones are elements of a house.

A part of it is in apaches mime.types file, video/vnd.mpegurl mxu m4u,
at IANA anyway, but it is only a part.

H.

http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs106/ -- Much ado about nothing?

Heiko Recktenwald

2004-03-12, 4:31 pm

Joerg Scheurich aka MUFTI <rusmufti@helpdesk.rus.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote:[color=darkred]

The background of the two is that you cannot display all MPEG Video
with one player anymore today. You need at least two players, for
example Ciscos Open Source MPEG4IP mp4player and Arpad Gereoffys
open source mplayer (mplayer -playlist) on UNIX. And you need two
MPEG Video Playlists, one for each of them.

Those playlists are like m3u or ram files, just series of URLs.
But nobody in the industry had cared, it did work here etcpp.

H.

http://www.uni-bonn.de/~uzs106/ -- The "SMS" of "mobile multimedia" ? ;-)