Stylesheets - How do I place a footer after many absolute DIVs ???

Author

How do I place a footer after many absolute DIVs ???

pamelafluente@libero.it

2006-08-20, 6:43 am

Dears,

I'd like to know the cleanest solution for the following problem.
I want to insert some CSS/htm after a long vertical column
of DIVs absolutely positioned.

Since this code is generated automatically by a streamwriter, I am
looking for the cleanest and simplest solution possible.

I would like:
- No reference to external stylesheet
- No solution where I have to write something "before and after" some
other code. The code should be in on place only, possibly at the end of
the page.

Thank you very much,

Pam

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"
"http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd">

<html>

<head>
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;charset=UTF-8">
<style type="text/css" media="screen">
..c0bg{position:absolute...
..c0fg{position:absolute...

..... A lot DIVs here in a long vertical column ...
.... All DIVs absolutely positioned

<div class=c3bg style="top:...
<div class=c3bg style="top:...

Q. How do I place the following at the bottom of the page ?

<br><p><b><font face="Tahoma" size="2" color="#99CCFF">Page
automatically generated on ... </font></a></font></b></p>

</body>
</html>

David Dorward

2006-08-20, 6:43 am

pamelafluente@libero.it wrote:

> I'd like to know the cleanest solution for the following problem.
> I want to insert some CSS/htm after a long vertical column
> of DIVs absolutely positioned.

Then you've go problems - unless you know the height of the column (and can
absolutely position the other content), then you've no way of knowing
where "after" is.

> <div class=c3bg style="top:...
> <div class=c3bg style="top:...

On the subject of which - how do you know where "after" is for the second of
those divs? (Hint: The user might change their font size).

--
David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
Home is where the ~/.bashrc is

pamelafluente@libero.it

2006-08-20, 6:43 am

Hi David,

As to fonts, No the user cannot change sizes. Everything is done
absolutely with pixel precision. Fonts are fixed defined in pixels.
This is a very precise layout (enterprise report). User cannot change
it. User can only interact with it with some onclick onmousedown
events.

I thought that with a mix of Javascript (to retrieve the end of the
document)
and CSS this could be done.

(I could keep track of the last pixel written programmatically, but, if
possible, I would like to avoid that complication.)

I would prefere something self contained based on CSS (and possibly
javascript, if necessary)

-Pam

David Dorward ha scritto:

> pamelafluente@libero.it wrote:
>
>
> Then you've go problems - unless you know the height of the column (and can
> absolutely position the other content), then you've no way of knowing
> where "after" is.
>
>
> On the subject of which - how do you know where "after" is for the second of
> those divs? (Hint: The user might change their font size).
>
> --
> David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
> Home is where the ~/.bashrc is

Chris F.A. Johnson

2006-08-20, 6:43 am

On 2006-08-20, pamelafluente@libero.it wrote:
> Hi David,
>
> As to fonts, No the user cannot change sizes. Everything is done
> absolutely with pixel precision.

That is almost always a mistake.

> Fonts are fixed defined in pixels. This is a very precise layout
> (enterprise report). User cannot change it. User can only interact
> with it with some onclick onmousedown events.

The user can always change it, unless you have some way of
absolutely controlling the users' browser and environment.

--
Chris F.A. Johnson <http://cfaj.freeshell.org>
===================================================================
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)

Nije Nego

2006-08-20, 6:36 pm

On 20 Aug 2006 03:17:54 -0700, pamelafluente@libero.it wrote:

> User cannot change
> it.

You'd be suprised!

--
buy, bought, bye

pamelafluente@libero.it

2006-08-20, 6:36 pm

> > As to fonts, No the user cannot change sizes. Everything is done
>
> That is almost always a mistake.

Agree with that from the perspective of a web artist. My perspective is
that
of a document prepared in a page setter (like quark Xpress) and
outputted to web.
There are many other things (pictures, label, text) to match: so
precision is a feature.

>
> The user can always change it, unless you have some way of
> absolutely controlling the users' browser and environment.

That I have just tried. Changing the font size from the menu has no
effects (tried with IE).

Thanks for the advice. If all of you experts think there is no clean
solution in js/css, I will resort
to compute the last div position programmatically. Let me know...

-Pam

pamelafluente@libero.it

2006-08-20, 6:36 pm

Nije Nego ha scritto:

> On 20 Aug 2006 03:17:54 -0700, pamelafluente@libero.it wrote:
>
>
> You'd be suprised!

eh? I do not want surprises. Tell me if there is anything I should take
care of :)

-Pam

>
> --
> buy, bought, bye

David Dorward

2006-08-20, 6:36 pm

pamelafluente@libero.it wrote:

Don't top post.

> As to fonts, No the user cannot change sizes.

Wrong. The user can always change the font sizes.

> Everything is done absolutely with pixel precision.

Almost always a mistake on the WWW.

> Fonts are fixed defined in pixels.

Which will stop the user from resizing the text ... if (and only if) they
use Internet Explorer ... and if (and only if) they don't use a custom
style sheet ... and if (and only if) they don't tell their browser to
ignore font size information from websites ... and if (and only if) they
don't have a bookmarklet to zap font size information ... and ... and ...
and.

--
David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
Home is where the ~/.bashrc is

pamelafluente@libero.it

2006-08-20, 6:36 pm

David Dorward ha scritto:

> pamelafluente@libero.it wrote:
>
> Don't top post.

Do not understand the meaning of "top post". What does that mean?
Sorry if I have done something wrong (I use Google to post).

>
>
> Wrong. The user can always change the font sizes.
>
>
> Almost always a mistake on the WWW.

Answered above.

>
>
> Which will stop the user from resizing the text ... if (and only if) they
> use Internet Explorer ... and if (and only if) they don't use a custom
> style sheet ... and if (and only if) they don't tell their browser to
> ignore font size information from websites ... and if (and only if) they
> don't have a bookmarklet to zap font size information ... and ... and ...
> and.

Good to know that. The pages are web rendering that try to clone
pages made with a page setter. The user should not have interest to
spoil
his layout work, done on the page setter.

By the way is there some tag I can insert to avoid some of these
problems?

>
>
> --
> David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
> Home is where the ~/.bashrc is

-Pam

David Dorward

2006-08-20, 6:36 pm

pamelafluente@libero.it wrote:

> David Dorward ha scritto:
>
> Do not understand the meaning of "top post". What does that mean?

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22top%20post%22 - first hit

> Good to know that. The pages are web rendering that try to clone
> pages made with a page setter. The user should not have interest to
> spoil his layout work, done on the page setter.

But they might have interest in having the text large enough to read. Or
they might have a minimum font size set.

> By the way is there some tag I can insert to avoid some of these
> problems?

No.

--
David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
Home is where the ~/.bashrc is

pamelafluente@libero.it

2006-08-20, 6:36 pm

> > Do not understand the meaning of "top post". What does that mean?
>
> http://www.google.com/search?q=%22top%20post%22 - first hit

Ah I see. That stuff "David Dorward ha scritto:" is inserted
automatically by Google. Perhaps they want all posters to look "idiot".

As to the definition:
"This term is generally used pejoratively with the implication that the
offending person is a newbie, a Microsoft addict (Microsoft mail tools
produce a similar format by default), or simply a
common-and-garden-variety idiot.",

I would be curious to know in which category I could fall according to
your opinion :)

> But they might have interest in having the text large enough to read. Or
> they might have a minimum font size set.

They can be set it in the Designer. There are many elements whose
position cannot
be jeopardized (like a magazine page) otherwiae the report become a
mess. It's not an artistic web page, it's a precisely designed
enterprise report.

>
>
> No.

:(

By the way, nice blog. I feel honored to be helped by someone
contributing to the css3 spec.

Ciao,

-Pam

Nije Nego

2006-08-20, 6:36 pm

On 20 Aug 2006 04:22:16 -0700, pamelafluente@libero.it wrote:
[color=darkred]
> Nije Nego ha scritto:
>
>
> eh? I do not want surprises. Tell me if there is anything I should take
> care of :)
>
> -Pam
>

When it comes to www - the only way to protect your design (in graphic
point of view), is to upload it as graphic file.

This goes for font sizes as well.

And, even so, user has the last word, he can choose not to view images.

--
buy, bought, bye

Stephen Poley

2006-08-20, 6:36 pm

On 20 Aug 2006 04:37:02 -0700, pamelafluente@libero.it wrote:

>Good to know that. The pages are web rendering that try to clone
>pages made with a page setter. The user should not have interest to
>spoil his layout work, done on the page setter.
>
>By the way is there some tag I can insert to avoid some of these
>problems?

If you have a genuinely good reason for maintaining a completely fixed
layout (it does happen occasionally - I can't judge from your post
whether this is the case here) then the best approach is probably to
provide a PDF document to the reader.

Or you might provide two versions: a flexible HTML layout for easy
on-screen reading and a PDF for producing nice printed copies.

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

pamelafluente@libero.it

2006-08-20, 6:36 pm

> If you have a genuinely good reason for maintaining a completely fixed
> layout (it does happen occasionally - I can't judge from your post
> whether this is the case here) then the best approach is probably to
> provide a PDF document to the reader.

We already do. But enterprises want web pages mostly.

>
> Or you might provide two versions: a flexible HTML layout for easy
> on-screen reading and a PDF for producing nice printed copies.

The relative positioning is not possible in my specific context, where
the precise relative position of several items of different nature is
crucial.

I know that if you could see all the code generated you would have some
tons of criticism, but I have to balance a lot of other things and
considerations. This is not a page manually created, but an attempt to
render as close as possible a design made in a composer.

There are also interactivity problem as I have to handle the click on
each cell. and there could be thousands of cell arranged in any
possible layout, not necessarily "tables".

Cells can have pictures and alarms inside. There can be label
superposed precisely on charts,... So a mess.

I am always trying to do the best compromise between many factors.

You are like artists. It's more less like telling Michelangelo to go
buy a paint at a shop. But most people are not Michelangelo, ... and
they do have to go buy it to the shop...

I bet 95% of you (in this group) would throw Front Page directly in the
dubstin, but nevertheless it's an indispensable tool to million of
persons who focus their life on other things (like money for instance).

I understand all the instances of you artists, and I try to get as
close as possible, because I admire you, but on the other hand must do
fight with a lot of other factors...

-Pam
>
> --
> Stephen Poley
>
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

David Dorward

2006-08-20, 6:36 pm

pamelafluente@libero.it wrote:

>
> Ah I see. That stuff "David Dorward ha scritto:" is inserted
> automatically by Google. Perhaps they want all posters to look "idiot".

Yes, but there isn't any need to put the entire response above it.

> As to the definition:
> "This term is generally used pejoratively with the implication that the
> offending person is a newbie, a Microsoft addict (Microsoft mail tools
> produce a similar format by default), or simply a
> common-and-garden-variety idiot.",
>
> I would be curious to know in which category I could fall according to
> your opinion :)

Newbie (to Usenet), in a non-pejorative fashion.

>
> They can be set it in the Designer.

I mean set in their browser (and it would apply to all websites).

> There are many elements whose position cannot be jeopardized (like a
> magazine page) otherwiae the report become a
> mess. It's not an artistic web page, it's a precisely designed
> enterprise report.

Perhaps, but HTML/CSS isn't a very good tool for achieving that type of
result.

--
David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>
Home is where the ~/.bashrc is

Jack

2006-08-22, 6:40 pm

pamelafluente@libero.it wrote:
> Hi David,
>
> As to fonts, No the user cannot change sizes. Everything is done
> absolutely with pixel precision. Fonts are fixed defined in pixels.
> This is a very precise layout (enterprise report). User cannot change
> it. User can only interact with it with some onclick onmousedown
> events.

An Enterprise Report with precise laayout requirements should be
published as PDF, not HTML. PDF is customary for ssuch purposes. You are
mistaken in your belief that the user cannot change the font size in an
HTML page.

--
Jack.
http://www.jackpot.uk.net/

Jack

2006-08-22, 6:40 pm

Nije Nego wrote:
> On 20 Aug 2006 04:22:16 -0700, pamelafluente@libero.it wrote:
>
>
> When it comes to www - the only way to protect your design (in graphic
> point of view), is to upload it as graphic file.
>
> This goes for font sizes as well.
>
> And, even so, user has the last word, he can choose not to view images.

Indeed she can choose not to view PDF documents - or even HTML pages.

I am still recommending PDF for the OP's purposes.
>

--
Jack.
http://www.jackpot.uk.net/

Jack

2006-08-22, 6:40 pm

pamelafluente@libero.it wrote:
>
> We already do. But enterprises want web pages mostly.

With PDF, you can get precise control of typography, spacing and so on.
With HTML, you provide a flexible layout that should aim to look "good
enough" on as wide a variety of popular browsers s possible.

You need to explain to your "enterprises", that they can have one, or
the other, or both; but they can't have both using the same technology
and the same URL.

If you're selling your services to these enterprises, then it's in your
interest to encourage them to go for both. Then you get to charge them
for two different designs.
>
> There are also interactivity problem as I have to handle the click on
> each cell. and there could be thousands of cell arranged in any
> possible layout, not necessarily "tables".
>
> Cells can have pictures and alarms inside. There can be label
> superposed precisely on charts,... So a mess.

I thought you described these things as "enterprise reports" - what you
are talking bout seems to be some kind of applicattion, not a normal report.

There are web-based reporting tools that allow you to interactively
drill down into corporate databases, produce consolidated ready-to-print
regional sales figures, and all that; but they are expensive, and tend
not to work cross-browser, and tend not to respect the fact that some
users need to override the author's rendering suggestions. The fact that
these solutions are expensive *and* sell, suggests that the enterprises
that buy them aren't entirely on-the-ball.

The situtions in which I've seen these things demo-d and sold have some
or all of these characteristics:
* The solution is used exclusively by in-house staff
* The material being presented is more-or-less confidential
* In-house staff are required to use Internet Explorer version $LAST-1
* IE settings must allow all kinds of executable content to execute
uninterrupted
* The resulting page is often intended for use in sales proposals and
bids

Such software is expensive because it's complex and hard to write well.
The best solutions also have a "Render to PDF" option anyway.

If you output your report as XML, you can then use XSLT to generate
either nice, versatile HTML that will work in (nearly) any browser,
although it won't necessarily be anything like pixel-perfect; or PDF,
which will appear exactly as specified by the murketing department.
Generating PDF from XSL can be done with free/libre tools (there are
also expensive commercial tools that don't do a better job of it).

>
> I am always trying to do the best compromise between many factors.
>
> You are like artists.

Who? Me? I think not, somehow; I wish I had even the vestiges of good taste.

> It's more less like telling Michelangelo to go buy a paint at a shop.
> But most people are not Michelangelo, ... and they do have to go buy
> it to the shop...

It's more like asking Leonardo to produce a gallery-grade masterpiece
rendition in oil of his latest prototype design for a flying machine.
He'd try to presuade you that not only would the design not be properly
readable if painted in oil; but that the proper medium for an
engineering drawing is - well - a drawing.
>
> I bet 95% of you (in this group) would throw Front Page directly in
> the dubstin,

Yer probably right.

> but nevertheless it's an indispensable tool to million of persons who
> focus their life on other things (like money for instance).

That is wrong. There is nothing that can be done with Front Page that
can't be done better and more easily using better tools. Front Page is
not only obsolete; it generates awful, unmaintainable HTML, and it ties
you into expensive technology from a single vendor (or at least it tries
to). Doing things better and more easily is the key to beating the
competition, and so to making money, and Front Page is unhelpful in
meeting that objective.

What it has going for it is that it comes for "free" with a certain
expensive office-productivity suite; and on the face of it, it seems to
be a drag-and-drop application. But even in the drag-and-drop world,
there are better HTML editors.
>
> I understand all the instances of you artists, and I try to get as
> close as possible, because I admire you, but on the other hand must
> do fight with a lot of other factors...

Most of the people here are engineers of one kind or another (as far as
I can tell). And my sense is that you are neither an artist nor an
engineer, but an office functionary of some kind, who has been asked to
perform a task that is (currently) outside of their skill-set.
>
> -Pam

Is that single hyphen your sig-separator:-?)
--
Jack.
http://www.jackpot.uk.net/

Nije Nego

2006-08-22, 6:40 pm

On 20 Aug 2006 09:46:59 -0700, pamelafluente@libero.it wrote:

>
> This is not a page manually created, but an attempt to
> render as close as possible a design made in a composer.
>
- cut
>
> I bet 95% of you (in this group) would throw Front Page directly in the
> dubstin, but nevertheless it's an indispensable tool to million of
> persons who focus their life on other things (like money for instance).
>
When it comes to pixel precision:

Front Page is definitely not the tool for what you want to achieve.
Web is definitely not the medium for what you want to achieve.

This is one example how some people did it (not that I am advertising - try
to look at the site with images turned off - some people do so!)
http://www.farfungplaces.com/

You should try to explain further more to your clients, or train yourself
better, since pixel precision on www is Mission Impossible.

--
buy, bought, bye

pamelafluente@libero.it

2006-08-22, 6:40 pm

Thank you to all guys for the interesting discussion. I do not come
often to this group, but I must admit it's always a pleasure to
interact with you. You are always so helpful. I feel this group has
something different from others I frequent more often, although I have
not yet fully realized what it is...

I will be monitoring this thread .. in case there are further
contributions... Thanks!!

Pam

Nije Nego ha scritto:

> On 20 Aug 2006 09:46:59 -0700, pamelafluente@libero.it wrote:
>
> - cut
> When it comes to pixel precision:
>
> Front Page is definitely not the tool for what you want to achieve.
> Web is definitely not the medium for what you want to achieve.
>
> This is one example how some people did it (not that I am advertising - try
> to look at the site with images turned off - some people do so!)
> http://www.farfungplaces.com/
>
> You should try to explain further more to your clients, or train yourself
> better, since pixel precision on www is Mission Impossible.
>
> --
> buy, bought, bye

Markus Ernst

2006-08-23, 6:50 am

pamelafluente@libero.it schrieb:
>
>
> Agree with that from the perspective of a web artist. My perspective is
> that
> of a document prepared in a page setter (like quark Xpress) and
> outputted to web.
> There are many other things (pictures, label, text) to match: so
> precision is a feature.

You can't do that in a reliable way with HTML and CSS; if
pixel-perfection is crucial you need to choose another file format, such
as PDF, Flash or GIF.

There is an important difference between print and screen design: In
print design you have control over the viewing situation (your prepared
layout printed by your favorite printer on a fixed-size piece of paper),
while in screen design the viewing situation can vary a lot - imagine
your boss wanting his/her site to look good both on the 20 inch desktop
screen and the Palm.

>
>
> That I have just tried. Changing the font size from the menu has no
> effects (tried with IE).

Try it with Firefox. Google this group and you find tons of discussions
about this behaviour of IE being correct or not - anyway you can't even
know if future versions of IE will behave like the same.

If you code for IE6 behaviour you might get the desired look for a
majority of today's users, but it is a good idea to make sure it does
not break for the others.

> Thanks for the advice. If all of you experts think there is no clean
> solution in js/css, I will resort
> to compute the last div position programmatically. Let me know...

How do you want to do this?

--
Markus

Markus Ernst

2006-08-23, 6:50 am

pamelafluente@libero.it schrieb:
> I know that if you could see all the code generated you would have some
> tons of criticism, but I have to balance a lot of other things and
> considerations. This is not a page manually created, but an attempt to
> render as close as possible a design made in a composer.
>
> There are also interactivity problem as I have to handle the click on
> each cell. and there could be thousands of cell arranged in any
> possible layout, not necessarily "tables".
>
> Cells can have pictures and alarms inside. There can be label
> superposed precisely on charts,... So a mess.

I think that Flash is the perfect tool for what you need to achieve. You
have all kinds of layout possibilities, can easily add any kind of
interactivity to any kind of element, and you can script it all for
automatic generation. I assume that it is not difficult to find a Flash
crack who will be happy to build this for you, as it seems to be an
interesting application.

--
Markus

pamelafluente@libero.it

2006-08-23, 6:58 pm

Thanks Marcus.

Flash is losing ground lately, I think ...

PS
No, it was just a provocation :)

Markus Ernst ha scritto:

> pamelafluente@libero.it schrieb:
>
> I think that Flash is the perfect tool for what you need to achieve. You
> have all kinds of layout possibilities, can easily add any kind of
> interactivity to any kind of element, and you can script it all for
> automatic generation. I assume that it is not difficult to find a Flash
> crack who will be happy to build this for you, as it seems to be an
> interesting application.
>
> --
> Markus