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| Laurence Tureaud 2004-06-17, 4:19 am |
| looking over the xhtml page that is provided as part of the zen garden
project...
what is the purpose of the <span></span> tags?
<div id="benefits">
<h3><span>Benefits</span></h3>
<p class="p1"><span>Why participate? For recognition, inspiration, and
a resource we can all refer to when making the case for <acronym
title="Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</acronym>-based design. This is sorely
needed, even today. More and more major sites are taking the leap, but not
enough have. One day this gallery will be a historical curiosity; that day
is not today.</span></p>
</div>
thanks very much-
mrt
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
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| Laurence Tureaud wrote:
> looking over the xhtml page that is provided as part of the zen
> garden project...
>
> what is the purpose of the <span></span> tags?
>
> <div id="benefits">
> <h3><span>Benefits</span></h3>
The Zen Garden site is a css demonstration page, a sort of gee-whiz
affair. The markup does not change, but authors can contribute new
stylesheets to change the appearance. None of those authors can add
markup to create new styling hooks. To compensate, the markup was
written to provide as many styling hooks as could be conceived, ahead
of time. As a result, there is a lot of redundant markup, such as the
code you copied, that would not be included in a normal authoring
situation.
hth
--
Brian (remove ".invalid" to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
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| Laurence Tureaud 2004-06-17, 4:19 am |
| thank you brian & others for your thoughtful answers to my silly beginner
questions.
i hope to have better questions soon!
-mrt
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| Jukka K. Korpela 2004-06-17, 4:19 am |
| Brian <usenet3@julietremblay.com.invalid> wrote:
> To compensate, the markup was
> written to provide as many styling hooks as could be conceived, ahead
> of time. As a result, there is a lot of redundant markup, - -
Part of the reasons for the extra markup is that it lets authors do
things in a manner that works on common browsers with serious problems in
their CSS support, too. For example, <h3><span>...</span></h3> lets the
author make the heading text just as wide as needed, e.g. in order to use
background that wide. For an inline element like <span> that's trivial,
but for a block element like <h3>, there's no practical way at present.
--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
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| Alan J. Flavell 2004-06-17, 7:15 am |
| On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Laurence Tureaud wrote, quoting:
> a resource we can all refer to when making the case for <acronym
> title="Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</acronym>-based design.
"CSS" is not an acronym, though.
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| Jukka K. Korpela 2004-06-17, 7:15 am |
| "Alan J. Flavell" <flavell@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> "CSS" is not an acronym, though.
In the CSS Zen Garden context, it is understandable that they didn't use
<abbr>, since <abbr> markup is useless for the purpose of styling
as far as IE is considered, and the Garden aims at being a practical
demonstration.
Personally, I would have used <span class="abbr" title=
"Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</span>.
--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
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| Alan J. Flavell 2004-06-17, 7:15 am |
| On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
> "Alan J. Flavell" <flavell@ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>
> In the CSS Zen Garden context, it is understandable that they didn't use
> <abbr>, since <abbr> markup is useless for the purpose of styling
> as far as IE is considered, and the Garden aims at being a practical
> demonstration.
I don't disagree; but the mere fact that IE doesn't support <abbr> is
IMNSHO no excuse for misrepresenting the term to WWW-compatible
browsers.
> Personally, I would have used <span class="abbr" title=
> "Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</span>.
When I can be bothered, I wrap my <abbr title="..."> elements in <span
class="abbr" title="...">, and when I can't, then IE users just have
to get what their vendor decides they can get.
cheers
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| Mark Tranchant 2004-06-17, 7:15 am |
| Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
> In the CSS Zen Garden context, it is understandable that they didn't use
> <abbr>, since <abbr> markup is useless for the purpose of styling
> as far as IE is considered, and the Garden aims at being a practical
> demonstration.
>
> Personally, I would have used <span class="abbr" title=
> "Cascading Style Sheets">CSS</span>.
I serve <acronym> to anything claiming to be IE and <abbr> to real UAs,
which is one of a couple of concessions I grudgingly make to it. I also
subtly suggest to IE users that they might like to switch to a web
browser instead.
http://tranchant.plus.com/ie
--
Mark.
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| Berislav Lopac 2004-06-17, 12:15 pm |
| Alan J. Flavell wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Laurence Tureaud wrote, quoting:
>
>
> "CSS" is not an acronym, though.
What it is if not an acronym? 'CSS' is an acronym; 'abbr' is an
abbreviation.
Berislav
--
If the Internet is a Marx Brothers movie, and Web, e-mail, and IRC are
Groucho, Chico, and Harpo, then Usenet is Zeppo.
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| Mark Tranchant 2004-06-17, 12:15 pm |
| Berislav Lopac wrote:
[color=darkred]
> What it is if not an acronym? 'CSS' is an acronym; 'abbr' is an
> abbreviation.
An acronym is usually defined as being pronounceable as a word, like
NATO. abbr is indeed an abbreviation, but so is ICBM and CSS. These are
initial-type abbreviations, whereas abbr is a contraction-type
abbreviation (my terms).
These definitions are quite woolly, though...
--
Mark.
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| Steve Pugh 2004-06-17, 12:15 pm |
| "Berislav Lopac" <berislav.lopac@dimedia.hr> wrote:
>Alan J. Flavell wrote:
>
>What it is if not an acronym? 'CSS' is an acronym;
How do you pronounce it then? Unless you prononce it as a word it
can't be an acronym.
Steve
--
"My theories appal you, my heresies outrage you,
I never answer letters and you don't like my tie." - The Doctor
Steve Pugh <steve@pugh.net> <http://steve.pugh.net/>
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| Alan J. Flavell 2004-06-17, 12:15 pm |
| On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Berislav Lopac wrote:
> Alan J. Flavell wrote:
>
>
> What it is if not an acronym?
There's lots of things that it's not. Acronym is only one of them.
I give you MEU2, Fowler ed. Gowers, for example, for respectable
discussion of these terms.
>'CSS' is an acronym;
Merely repeating the disputed assertion doesn't make it any more or
less valid, though. The sloppy use of the precise term "acronym" to
refer to various kinds of abbreviation in casual speech really doesn't
help. Particularly as English already has a long-standing word,
"initialism", to refer to this kind of abbreviation, and doesn't need
to degrade the original meaning of the term "acronym" until they all
mean much the same thing.
> 'abbr' is an abbreviation.
Did I ever dispute that? "CSS" is an abbreviation (for which HTML has
a markup). It's also an initialism (for which HTML has no specific
markup). An acronym it is not, at least not in respectable company.
| |
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| On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 06:07:10 +0000 (UTC),
"Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> posted:
> For example, <h3><span>...</span></h3> lets the
> author make the heading text just as wide as needed, e.g. in order to use
> background that wide. For an inline element like <span> that's trivial,
> but for a block element like <h3>, there's no practical way at present.
Have you ever tried restyling an h tag as an inline element? So far, on
the browsers I've tried it with, you can get the same effect.
e.g. h3 {display: inline; color: white; background-color: blue;}
--
If you insist on e-mailing me, use the reply-to address (it's real but
temporary). But please reply to the group, like you're supposed to.
This message was sent without a virus, please delete some files yourself.
| |
| Brian 2004-06-17, 12:15 pm |
| Laurence Tureaud wrote:
> thank you brian
Your welcome.
> & others
Did I miss some other replies? :-o
> for your thoughtful answers to my silly beginner questions.
>
> i hope to have better questions soon!
This is one of the *least* silly questions I've come across recently
in ciwa*. It's quite reasonable to wonder why, on a demonstration
site, the markup is so curiously bloated.
--
Best,
Brian (remove ".invalid" to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
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| Brian 2004-06-17, 12:15 pm |
| Brian wrote:
> Did I miss some other replies? :-o
Well, yes, I did, mostly because I didn't bother to look ahead in the
unthreaded view. Sorry for the stupidity.
--
Brian (remove ".invalid" to email me)
http://www.tsmchughs.com/
| |
| Harlan Messinger 2004-06-17, 12:15 pm |
|
"Mark Tranchant" <mark@tranchant.plus.com> wrote in message
news:j3fAc.16083$NK4.2712637@stones.force9.net...
> Berislav Lopac wrote:
>
>
>
> An acronym is usually defined as being pronounceable as a word, like
> NATO. abbr is indeed an abbreviation, but so is ICBM and CSS. These are
> initial-type abbreviations, whereas abbr is a contraction-type
> abbreviation (my terms).
>
> These definitions are quite woolly, though...
The confusion would be abated by *adopting* a word specifically for strings
of initials that haven't become an acronym. I propose adapting the word used
in French for this purpose, "sigle", perhaps converting it to "siggle"
first.
| |
| Mark Tranchant 2004-06-17, 12:15 pm |
| Harlan Messinger wrote:
> "Mark Tranchant" <mark@tranchant.plus.com> wrote in message
> news:j3fAc.16083$NK4.2712637@stones.force9.net...
>
>
> The confusion would be abated by *adopting* a word specifically for strings
> of initials that haven't become an acronym. I propose adapting the word used
> in French for this purpose, "sigle", perhaps converting it to "siggle"
> first.
A good suggestion, and I like "siggle", but "initialism" exists for this
already:
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=initialism
--
Mark.
| |
| Harlan Messinger 2004-06-17, 7:16 pm |
|
"Mark Tranchant" <mark@tranchant.plus.com> wrote in message
news:iGhAc.16146$NK4.2728188@stones.force9.net...
> Harlan Messinger wrote:
>
>
strings[color=darkred]
used[color=darkred]
>
> A good suggestion, and I like "siggle", but "initialism" exists for this
> already:
>
> http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=initialism
Ah, so it does: Merriam-Webster Collegiate on-line has it too. Too bad--I
was fond of "siggle" as soon as I thought of it.
| |
| Darin McGrew 2004-06-17, 7:16 pm |
| Philipp Lenssen <info@outer-court.com> wrote:
> Did
> anybody ever mention the W3C invented a whole lot of phrase markup
> which we don't need as much as some others which seem to be lacking
> (e.g. "footnote", for one)?
Alas, poor HTML 3.0! I knew it, Horatio: a draft of infinite elements, of
most excellent attributes: it hath borne structure on its back a thousand
times; and now, how abhorred in my imagination it is!
Generic captioned figures (a la HTML 3.0's FIG) would have been nice too.
--
Darin McGrew, mcgrew@stanfordalumni.org, http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, darin@htmlhelp.com, http://www.HTMLHelp.com/
"I've cut this board three times, and it's still too short!"
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| Jukka K. Korpela 2004-06-17, 7:16 pm |
| Tim <tim@mail.localhost.invalid> wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Jun 2004 06:07:10 +0000 (UTC),
> "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> posted:
>
>
> Have you ever tried restyling an h tag as an inline element?
Yes, but making a heading an inline element is too restrictive.
> So far,
> on the browsers I've tried it with, you can get the same effect.
>
> e.g. h3 {display: inline; color: white; background-color: blue;}
Up to a point, yes, but e.g. margin-top and margin-bottom do not affect
non-replaced inline elements. And for good typography, margins around
headings should normally be changed from common defaults (at least so
that top margin is larger than bottom margin).
--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
| |
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| "Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> posted:
Tim <tim@mail.localhost.invalid> wrote:
[color=darkred]
"Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela@cs.tut.fi> posted:
[color=darkred]
> Yes, but making a heading an inline element is too restrictive.
I know it seems a daft thing to do, but it does seem to work okay where
I've tried that trick, because there's other block elements either side of
it.
e.g. <p>something</p> <h2>something</h2> <p>something</p>
[color=darkred]
> Up to a point, yes, but e.g. margin-top and margin-bottom do not affect
> non-replaced inline elements. And for good typography, margins around
> headings should normally be changed from common defaults (at least so
> that top margin is larger than bottom margin).
Well, it was a very simple example. ;-) You could, of course, put more
information around that to put in margins and the like, but then you're not
that far away from playing with the span trick, then, anyway.
I suppose there's some credence to the idea that you're trying "emphasise"
a heading by colouring it in, so you could do a <h2><em>heading</em></h2>
trick, and style em elements within h2 elements. ;-)
--
If you insist on e-mailing me, use the reply-to address (it's real but
temporary). But please reply to the group, like you're supposed to.
This message was sent without a virus, please delete some files yourself.
| |
| Jukka K. Korpela 2004-06-18, 7:16 pm |
| Tim <tim@mail.localhost.invalid> wrote:
>
> I know it seems a daft thing to do, but it does seem to work okay
> where I've tried that trick, because there's other block elements
> either side of it.
>
> e.g. <p>something</p> <h2>something</h2> <p>something</p>
A heading is not necessarily preceded or followed by a paragraph but e.g.
by a <div> element. And how would you arrange things so that the top
margin for the heading is larger than bottom margin, if any attempt to do
so directly fails (because you've made <h2> an inline element)? It's
possible, but awkward.
> I suppose there's some credence to the idea that you're trying
> "emphasise" a heading by colouring it in, so you could do a
> <h2><em>heading</em></h2> trick, and style em elements within h2
> elements. ;-)
And have it italicized on non-CSS browsers. I wouldn't recommend using
such artificial markup; if you want redundant inline markup for the
purpose of styling, use <span> - it has the additional benefit of not
having any default effect on rendering.
--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
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