Site Ratings & Reviews - www.atlis.nl

Author

www.atlis.nl

Stephen Poley

2004-09-09, 7:22 pm

A little while ago I was asked to tidy up the English translation of a
site. It didn't take me long to realise it had more problems than the
English grammar: frames, Javascript-dependent, mediocre when printed,
slow for the content etc. After some discussions with the owner I got
permission to restructure it, though with strict instructions to change
the actual page layout as little as possible. The new version is now
online at http://www.atlis.nl/

Your comments would be welcome.

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

Deryck

2004-09-09, 7:22 pm

"Stephen Poley" <sbpoleySpicedHamTrap@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
news:c8jhj09gfrd9uc0ikjtpifk16pmt07hq98@4ax.com...
> A little while ago I was asked to tidy up the English translation of a
> site. It didn't take me long to realise it had more problems than the
> English grammar: frames, Javascript-dependent, mediocre when printed,
> slow for the content etc. After some discussions with the owner I got
> permission to restructure it, though with strict instructions to change
> the actual page layout as little as possible. The new version is now
> online at http://www.atlis.nl/
>
> Your comments would be welcome.
>

Looks a nice clean site.

I use a 1440x900 laptop and the pages spreads nicely over the full window.

There is a minor validation error on
http://www.atlis.nl/en/pm/services/project_start.html and there doesn't
appear to be an English version of the pyramid image on that page which is a
shame.

I havent checked all the pages in the validator but with the exception of
the one above all those that I have checked do validate.

I like the fact that even with Javascript disabled I can still get to the
"top" level of each menu and get the "lower" menu options from the text on
that page. I mean, I can navigate the site without JS.

I tried it with Opera, FF and IE6 and it looked consistent in all browsers
with no obvious problems (I'm using windows XP BTW).

I feel like that bot/twat Ginae but it does look very nice
indeed...doubtless a better person than me will pick it to bits though :)

HTH

Deryck

The Doormouse

2004-09-09, 7:22 pm

Stephen Poley <sbpoleySpicedHamTrap@xs4all.nl> wrote:

> http://www.atlis.nl/

Well, it does not validate.

Besides that, and the ugly dividers on the menu at top, and the meaningless
graphic element on the left, and the odd way the site is structured on the
server (../../../) ... um, okay. Maybe it is not that good.

The Doormouse

--
The Doormouse cannot be reached by e-mail without her permission.

Chris Beall

2004-09-09, 7:22 pm

Spartanicus wrote:

> Stephen Poley <sbpoleySpicedHamTrap@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
>

Spartanicus,

OK, this isn't my site, but I think there's a chance here for me to
learn something important.
First, how do you view a site without the associated CSS? (Um, as a real
user, not a hacker.)

(snip assorted numbered responses)[color=darkred]
> 2) It's currently a strange mix, some elements adapt to my window width,
> but the important bit (the content) doesn't.

It adapts fine in my environment. Do you mean it doesn't adapt without
CSS? If so, how COULD it adapt? Except for <pre>, shouldn't raw HTML
adapt just fine?

> 5) Page linearity is a real mess, look at it sans css.

I've never heard the term 'page linearity' before. Google didn't help.
Can you tell me what you mean by this?

> 13) The "submenu" at the end of the index page is superfluous, these sub
> links are present on the pages that can be reached via the "main" menu
> (I'm looking at it sans css and sans js).

Does this imply rethinking his entire drop-down menu implementation?
Without CSS, there's no display:none to hide this stuff.

> 14) The breadcrumb bar is orphaned off to the right due to it being a
> part fixed width site.

I didn't understand this one. May it's the process I used to remove CSS.
The breadcrumb showed up right after the phone number and before the
primary page content. Or was the site changed after your post?

Thanks for any enlightenment you care to provide.

Chris Beall

Stephen Poley

2004-09-09, 7:23 pm

On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 22:28:05 +0100, "Deryck"
<deryck@REMOVElonghope.co.uk> wrote:

>"Stephen Poley" <sbpoleySpicedHamTrap@xs4all.nl> wrote in message
>news:c8jhj09gfrd9uc0ikjtpifk16pmt07hq98@4ax.com...
[color=darkred]
>There is a minor validation error on
>http://www.atlis.nl/en/pm/services/project_start.html

Thanks. I validated about a dozen sample pages and found no errors; of
course I missed those which did have errors!

>and there doesn't
>appear to be an English version of the pyramid image on that page which is a
>shame.

True. They seem to have lost the AI source files of the images, so
they'll all have to be redrawn at some time.

>I like the fact that even with Javascript disabled I can still get to the
>"top" level of each menu and get the "lower" menu options from the text on
>that page. I mean, I can navigate the site without JS.
>
>I tried it with Opera, FF and IE6 and it looked consistent in all browsers
>with no obvious problems (I'm using windows XP BTW).

Thanks for your comments.

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

Spartanicus

2004-09-09, 7:23 pm

Chris Beall <Chris_Beall@prodigy.net> wrote:

>First, how do you view a site without the associated CSS?

In my UA I use Ctrl-G.

>
>It adapts fine in my environment.

The text doesn't flow in the available space:
http://www.spartanicus.utvinternet.ie/test/atlis.nl.png

>
>I've never heard the term 'page linearity' before. Google didn't help.
>Can you tell me what you mean by this?

>
>Does this imply rethinking his entire drop-down menu implementation?

I have js disabled, I didn't look at how the drop down menu is
implemented, at any rate currently it's wrong because it disassociates
the main menu items from the sub menu items.

>
>I didn't understand this one.

It appears on the right in a otherwise blank space:
http://www.spartanicus.utvinternet.ie/test/atlis.nl.png

--
Spartanicus

Jeffrey Silverman

2004-09-09, 7:23 pm

On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 01:10:16 +0000, Chris Beall wrote:

> OK, this isn't my site, but I think there's a chance here for me to
> learn something important.
> First, how do you view a site without the associated CSS? (Um, as a real
> user, not a hacker.)

Use Opera.

--
Jeffrey Silverman
jeffreyPANTS@jhu.edu
** Drop "PANTS" to reply by email

Jeffrey Silverman

2004-09-09, 7:23 pm

On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 10:18:41 +0100, Spartanicus wrote:

> Page/content linearity means placing the content in a logical order.
>
> http://www.atlis.nl/nl/atlis/ has a decorative image, a postal address,
> phone numbers, a nav section and a bread crumb bar before the actual
> page header (which should be "About Atlis" btw), all this preceding
> stuff should be positioned *in the source* below the "Atlis" header and
> it's following paragraph.

I'll extend this definition a smidge by saying that, since CSS positioning
really lets you move bits anywhere on the page you want, the actual
position and ordering of the content in the HTML code can be in any order.

So, to help with accessibility and improve cross-browser or CSS-disabled
readability, it is good to actually order <div>'s in the HTML source in a
way that makes sense.

--
Jeffrey Silverman
jeffreyPANTS@jhu.edu
** Drop "PANTS" to reply by email

Chris Beall

2004-09-09, 7:23 pm

Spartanicus wrote:
> Chris Beall <Chris_Beall@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> In my UA I use Ctrl-G.
>
>
>
>
> The text doesn't flow in the available space:
> http://www.spartanicus.utvinternet.ie/test/atlis.nl.png

OK, got it. You're using a much higher window size than I do. Note,
however, that there is a point of view that says that long text lines
are hard to read ('cause your eyeballs get confused when they do a
carriage return). One recommendation that I once saw was that a line of
text should not exceed the combined length of the upper and lowercase
alphabet in the font being used.

>
>
>
>
>
> I have js disabled, I didn't look at how the drop down menu is
> implemented, at any rate currently it's wrong because it disassociates
> the main menu items from the sub menu items.
>
>
>
>
> It appears on the right in a otherwise blank space:
> http://www.spartanicus.utvinternet.ie/test/atlis.nl.png
>

OK, I understand. Another consequence of your larger window size. This
seems to be a general problem with a 3-column design in which the widths
of the left and right columns are fixed. When the window size gets
large, all of the increase is applied to the center column, which then
gets longer than a 'good' line of text should be (see above), resulting
in lots of blank space. This could be made more attractive by centering
the paragraph (still left-justified) within the center column, thus
splitting the empty space. I think I'd prefer a solution in which the
side columns expand, so the proportions remain the same at all window sizes.

Thanks,
Chris Beall

Chris Beall

2004-09-09, 7:23 pm

Spartanicus wrote:

> Chris Beall <Chris_Beall@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> Forgot to answer this one in the previous post:
>
>
>
>
> Page/content linearity means placing the content in a logical order.
>
> http://www.atlis.nl/nl/atlis/ has a decorative image, a postal address,
> phone numbers, a nav section and a bread crumb bar before the actual
> page header (which should be "About Atlis" btw), all this preceding
> stuff should be positioned *in the source* below the "Atlis" header and
> it's following paragraph.
>

I understand. This goes along with the ability to disable CSS.

Regards,
Chris Beall

Chris Beall

2004-09-09, 7:23 pm

Jeffrey Silverman wrote:

> On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 01:10:16 +0000, Chris Beall wrote:
>
>
>
>
> Use Opera.
>

OK, so some browsers allow you to disable CSS (actually, I assume, Style
of any flavor).

I understand some reasons to disable cookies and JavaScript.

Why would you ever WANT to disable CSS (other than during development to
test a page in that environment)?

Thanks,
Chris Beall

Spartanicus

2004-09-09, 7:23 pm

Chris Beall <Chris_Beall@prodigy.net> wrote:

>Note,
>however, that there is a point of view that says that long text lines
>are hard to read ('cause your eyeballs get confused when they do a
>carriage return). One recommendation that I once saw was that a line of
>text should not exceed the combined length of the upper and lowercase
>alphabet in the font being used.

This is a user preference issue, the user sizes the window width to what
they are comfortable with. An author should facilitate this, not impose
his preference.

--
Spartanicus

Stephen Poley

2004-09-09, 7:23 pm

On Fri, 3 Sep 2004 22:53:03 +0100, jake <jake@gododdin.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <c8jhj09gfrd9uc0ikjtpifk16pmt07hq98@4ax.com>, Stephen Poley
><sbpoleySpicedHamTrap@xs4all.nl> writes
>English Version:
>
>(1) The <title></title> contents on the English home page is in Dutch.

Oops! Thanks.

>(2) The menu needs a separator between each item e.g. "|".

For AAA compliance, yes. I'm only aiming at AA. AFAICS AAA compliance is
aimed at work-arounds for some buggy assistive technology.

>(3) The 'Home' link on the Home page is still active, as is the 'Project
>Management' link on the Project Management page, etc.

True, but not easily addressed as this is an identical 'include' in
every page. The alternative would make maintenance much harder.

>(5) It could do with a 'skip to main content' link at the start of each
>page.

I'll think about that one.

>(6) Dutch annotated diagram on English page.

Yes, the diagrams have to be redrawn unfortunately.

>(7) 'You are here' would be nice to announce the bread crumb.

I'll ask the site owner about that one.

>(8) On the Atlis page, 'This Site' points to the same page as
>'Customers'.

Oops again. Thanks.

I'll fix the errors when I'm back in the office next week.

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

Stephen Poley

2004-09-09, 7:23 pm

On Fri, 03 Sep 2004 22:39:29 +0100, Spartanicus <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>Stephen Poley <sbpoleySpicedHamTrap@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
>
>1) The use of national flags for language selection is not smart.

Perhaps not very, but I didn't feel it worth arguing about with the site
owner. Other things were more important.

>2) It's currently a strange mix, some elements adapt to my window width,
>but the important bit (the content) doesn't.

I've placed a max-width on the content, so it should always adapt to
smaller windows, but doesn't produce very long text lines unless you
choose a large font size. Which browser / window-size are you using? Are
you suggesting the max-width value is too small?

>3) You've not specified a background colour, that's only ok if you don't
>specify a foreground colour. Currently it breaks with certain user
>specified preferences.

Good point.

>4) The blue'ish image on the top left is strictly decorative, hence it
>should disappear when viewed sans css (including the space it occupies).

Why do you think that?

>5) Page linearity is a real mess, look at it sans css.

I don't really understand the problem. What do you think doesn't
linearise? I tried a few sample pages in a text-browser emulator -
http://www.delorie.com/web/lynxview.html - and they seemed OK to me.
(Well, apart perhaps from the submenus.)

(OK, having seen your later post, explaining what you meant: I tend to
avoid absolute positioning as I've seen it cause more problems than it
solves. In this case perhaps it would be usable to make the pages more
text-browser friendly, but whether I'll have time in the near future to
change 100+ pages is doubtful. Would a 'skip navigation' link satisfy
you?)

>6) Good coding style: quote all attribute values.

Unnecessary in HTML for attributes which are strictly alphanumeric.

>7) List of links (nav) not marked up as such.

I have previously tried marking up navbars as lists; for vertical bars
it works fine, but there seem to be just too many browser bugs still
around for horizontal bars.

>8) Company logo appears twice sans css, one should not.

>9) "Submenu's: rest van de pagina negeren." makes no semantic sense,
>read the page content out loud.

Not ideal perhaps: what wording would you suggest? I just want users of
text browsers to know they don't need to read any further.

>10) No form mail fallback.

Not yet. It's on the to-do list.

>11) More good coding style: choose lower or upper case, stick to it
>(currently it's a mix).

A bit harsh - on a quick grep I managed to find two files (out of 100+)
in which some upper-case tags had crept in.

>12) The html doesn't validate.

I validated a sample of the pages, which were all valid. (A bit
embarassing I missed the opening page!) Do you know an easy way to
validate all pages on a site?

>13) The "submenu" at the end of the index page is superfluous, these sub
>links are present on the pages that can be reached via the "main" menu

Not superfluous exactly; these are the drop-down submenus that appear
when Javascript is enabled and allow the reader to bypass one level of
index page if desired.

>(I'm looking at it sans css and sans js).

I gathered. ;-)

>14) The breadcrumb bar is orphaned off to the right due to it being a
>part fixed width site.

On very large windows, or for largish windows and the shorter
breadcrumbs, that is true. But it looks OK at common window sizes and
doesn't become unreadable at large window widths.

>15) The company address, email, phone #, main navbar and breadcrumb bar
>are not properly structurally separated sans css.

What would you suggest then?

Thanks for your comments.

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

Spartanicus

2004-09-09, 7:23 pm

Jeffrey Silverman <jeffreyPANTS@jhu.edu> wrote:

>I'll extend this definition a smidge by saying that, since CSS positioning
>really lets you move bits anywhere on the page you want

Certain elements cannot be positioned anywhere in the source (floats
e.g.).

>the actual
>position and ordering of the content in the HTML code can be in any order.

Absolute positioning should not be the first choice, it throws up new
issues, most can be prevented by skillful implementation, but not all.

Often it's better to remove the cause, given that Stephen has to keep
the look close to the original site, that may not be an option though.

--
Spartanicus

Stephen Poley

2004-09-09, 7:23 pm

On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 08:25:13 +0100, jake <jake@gododdin.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <vablj014kg8bg9g0bi9dtb689eliq4dt2d@4ax.com>, Stephen Poley
><sbpoleySpicedHamTrap@xs4all.nl> writes
>[snip]
>
>
>[snip]
>
>No, it's not just for compliance. It's just that without a
>(recognisable) separator, the words will run together.

Well the information on where one link ends and the following link
begins is present in the HTML. All graphical browsers (AFAIK) manage to
distinguish them, and all text browsers could (by, for example,
inserting such a character) - but I gather some don't. I really see this
as the responsibility of the browser writer, not the page author.

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

Stephen Poley

2004-09-09, 7:23 pm

On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 10:18:41 +0100, Spartanicus <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>Chris Beall <Chris_Beall@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>Forgot to answer this one in the previous post:
>
>
>Page/content linearity means placing the content in a logical order.
>
>http://www.atlis.nl/nl/atlis/ has a decorative image, a postal address,
>phone numbers, a nav section and a bread crumb bar before the actual
>page header (which should be "About Atlis" btw), all this preceding
>stuff should be positioned *in the source* below the "Atlis" header and
>it's following paragraph.

I've been looking at this. How do you propose to achieve it?

- The left column may be 10em wide (if the reader has selected a largish
font size) or 123px (if he selects a small font-size).

- Similarly the height of the menu is not known in advance as it depends
on both the selected font size and the window width (the menu may wrap).

How do you use positioning for the main content without destroying the
fluidity of the design?

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

jake

2004-09-09, 7:23 pm

In message <jkb1k05iqjplnd3251c0q3i1e9j2r17ukd@4ax.com>, Stephen Poley
<sbpoleySpicedHamTrap@xs4all.nl> writes
>On Sun, 5 Sep 2004 08:25:13 +0100, jake <jake@gododdin.demon.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>
>Well the information on where one link ends and the following link
>begins is present in the HTML. All graphical browsers (AFAIK) manage to
>distinguish them, and all text browsers could (by, for example,
>inserting such a character) - but I gather some don't. I really see this
>as the responsibility of the browser writer, not the page author.
>
See it as you wish ..... just so long as you provide a separator between
menu items.

regards.
--
Jake

Spartanicus

2004-09-09, 7:23 pm

Stephen Poley <sbpoleySpicedHamTrap@xs4all.nl> wrote:

>
>I've been looking at this. How do you propose to achieve it?

Use em's: http://www.spartanicus.utvinternet.ie/test/stephen.htm

You'd need to set overflow if the left panel contains images (foreground
images), a real world example: http://www.pan-europe.utvinternet.ie

--
Spartanicus

Spartanicus

2004-09-10, 7:15 am

Chris Beall <Chris_Beall@prodigy.net> wrote:

Forgot to answer this one in the previous post:

>I've never heard the term 'page linearity' before. Google didn't help.
>Can you tell me what you mean by this?

Page/content linearity means placing the content in a logical order.

http://www.atlis.nl/nl/atlis/ has a decorative image, a postal address,
phone numbers, a nav section and a bread crumb bar before the actual
page header (which should be "About Atlis" btw), all this preceding
stuff should be positioned *in the source* below the "Atlis" header and
it's following paragraph.

--
Spartanicus

The Doormouse

2004-09-10, 12:17 pm

Dave Patton

2004-09-10, 11:16 pm

Chris Beall <Chris_Beall@prodigy.net> wrote in
news:YB8_c.10894$Y94.8597@newssvr33.news.prodigy.com:

> First, how do you view a site without the associated CSS? (Um, as a real
> user, not a hacker.)

In Firefox with the Web Developer extension loaded,
Disable > Disable Styles, or else Ctrl+Shift+D.

No matter what your 'regular browser' is, it's worthwhile
getting Firefox and the Web Developer extension(and the
DOM Inspector, and LiveHTTPHeaders, and Google Pagerank,
and probably others ;-)

--
Dave Patton
Canadian Coordinator, Degree Confluence Project
http://www.confluence.org/
My website: http://members.shaw.ca/davepatton/

jake

2004-09-11, 4:17 am

In message <vablj014kg8bg9g0bi9dtb689eliq4dt2d@4ax.com>, Stephen Poley
<sbpoleySpicedHamTrap@xs4all.nl> writes
[snip]

[snip]
[color=darkred]
>
>
>For AAA compliance, yes. I'm only aiming at AA. AFAICS AAA compliance is
>aimed at work-arounds for some buggy assistive technology.
>
No, it's not just for compliance. It's just that without a
(recognisable) separator, the words will run together.

[snip]

>
>
>I'll think about that one.
>
Well, don't think for more than 10 seconds before doing it ;-)

[snip]

>
>I'll fix the errors when I'm back in the office next week.
>
An excellent idea.

regards.

--
Jake

Spartanicus

2004-09-11, 4:17 am

Stephen Poley <sbpoleySpicedHamTrap@xs4all.nl> wrote:

>
>I've placed a max-width on the content, so it should always adapt to
>smaller windows, but doesn't produce very long text lines unless you
>choose a large font size. Which browser / window-size are you using?

Did you really just ask that?

>Are you suggesting the max-width value is too small?

I'm suggesting that it's up to the user to define the window width he is
comfortable with and that an author should not try to restrict a width.

>
>Why do you think that?

See my reply to Chris Beal.

>I tend to
>avoid absolute positioning as I've seen it cause more problems than it
>solves.

People often introduce new issues when they use absolute positioning,
but if implemented wisely it works ok.

>Would a 'skip navigation' link satisfy you?

Yuck no, that's an ugly kludge.

>
>Unnecessary in HTML for attributes which are strictly alphanumeric.

I assume you meant "numeric", it's not required in html, but I said it
was "Good coding style", note that xhtml does require it. Xhtml is imo
pointless, but I do favor using some of the things that are mandatory in
those specs in html, such as all lower case code, quoting all attribute
values etc.

>
>I have previously tried marking up navbars as lists; for vertical bars
>it works fine, but there seem to be just too many browser bugs still
>around for horizontal bars.

Google for "ALA taming lists".

>
>Not ideal perhaps: what wording would you suggest? I just want users of
>text browsers to know they don't need to read any further.

<suitable header level>Site navigation:</suitable header level> Why
would you want to tell people who use talking browsers to "ignore the
rest of the page"? Inform them about what follows, let them decide if
they want to go there.

>
>A bit harsh - on a quick grep I managed to find two files (out of 100+)
>in which some upper-case tags had crept in.

I only looked at the index page code.

>Do you know an easy way to validate all pages on a site?

Online: http://www.htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/ (has an "entire site"
option)
Offline: A batch offline validator (e.g. http://arealvalidator.com/ )

>
>Not superfluous exactly; these are the drop-down submenus that appear
>when Javascript is enabled and allow the reader to bypass one level of
>index page if desired.

Provided that all sub links are present on sub pages the entire site is
navigable sans js, so you can freely use "js links" for the drop down
menu and dispense with the currently inappropriately marked up and
disassociated menu links at the bottom.

>
>What would you suggest then?

The navbar should be marked up as a list, the postal address should be
structurally separated from the phone #'s (I'd mark it up as a paragraph
with line breaks), both phone #'s belong together.

Some favor marking up bread crumb bars as nested lists and then styling
them to display horizontally, the ALA "taming lists" article contains a
demo like that. This is a semantically sound approach, personally I
think some have gone a bit "mark it up as a list" mad. I mark bread
crumb bars up as a div with a "You are here:" prefix, and then position
it in the source so that it follows the navbar list. That imo also
provides a semantically sound approach without the imo rather convoluted
nested lists.

--
Spartanicus

kchayka

2004-09-11, 4:17 am

Chris Beall wrote:
>
> Why would you ever WANT to disable CSS (other than during development to
> test a page in that environment)?

When a clueless (or misguided) author uses CSS in a way that creates an
unusable page. For example, absolutely positioned text elements when
different text sizes are not accounted for can cause overlapping, and
thus unreadable, text. Disabling CSS may be the only way to make that
content accessible.

But then, there's always the browser's back button, too. :-)

--
Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
Please reply to the group so everyone can share.

kchayka

2004-09-11, 4:17 am

Spartanicus wrote:
>
> the postal address should be
> structurally separated from the phone #'s (I'd mark it up as a paragraph
> with line breaks),

Wouldn't <address> be more appropriate than <p>?

--
Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
Please reply to the group so everyone can share.

Spartanicus

2004-09-11, 4:17 am

kchayka <usenet@c-net.us> wrote:

>
>Wouldn't <address> be more appropriate than <p>?

The w3c definition of address is that it's for contact info for the
page's *author*.

Stephen is the author of the page, it's the company's address.

--
Spartanicus

Stephen Poley

2004-09-11, 4:17 am

On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 00:41:29 GMT, The Doormouse <doormouse@att.net>
wrote:

> and the odd way the site is structured on the
>server (../../../)

They're called relative paths. I'm sure a rodent of your calibre can
think of a reason for using them.

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

Chris Beall

2004-09-11, 7:17 pm

Stephen Poley

2004-09-12, 4:16 am

On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 21:49:37 +0100, Spartanicus <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>Stephen Poley <sbpoleySpicedHamTrap@xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
>
>Use em's: http://www.spartanicus.utvinternet.ie/test/stephen.htm
>
>You'd need to set overflow if the left panel contains images (foreground
>images), a real world example: http://www.pan-europe.utvinternet.ie

OK, but this fails the flexibility test in two ways:

1) the image in the left sidebar gets clipped at small text sizes (OK,
it does have to be pretty small, but I think the company logo in mine
would risk getting clipped at reasonable text sizes, unless one uses a
large spacing which gives excessive white space at larger text sizes.)

2) The top menu doesn't wrap in small windows.

I'm not saying these are serious defects, but your positioning proposal
is trading off one small defect for another couple of small defects. No
disaster, but it doesn't seem to be any real improvement either.

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

Spartanicus

2004-09-12, 7:15 am

Stephen Poley <sbpoleySpicedHamTrap@xs4all.nl> wrote:

>
>OK, but this fails the flexibility test in two ways:
>
>1) the image in the left sidebar gets clipped at small text sizes

Because it's coded to do so. As I said, you have control over that via
the overflow and z-index properties.

>2) The top menu doesn't wrap in small windows.

It's coded not to wrap, top navbar wrapping doesn't work when it's
absolutely positioned. Normally this issue doesn't occur (all navbar
links aligned left or right).

On my site the "Home" and other navbar links may overlap at narrow
window widths because the "Home" link is floated to the left. This can
easily be fixed it for proper browsers by coding the navbar as a css
table. The code to do that is in my css file, but it's commented out
because of an obscure bug in Opera 7.5, the issue is triggered by my use
of a js document.write routine in the left panel.

--
Spartanicus

The Doormouse

2004-09-13, 12:17 pm

Stephen Poley <sbpoleySpicedHamTrap@xs4all.nl> wrote:

>
> They're called relative paths. I'm sure a rodent of your calibre can
> think of a reason for using them.

Three folders up the directory structure is an odd place for source files.

The Doormouse

--
The Doormouse cannot be reached by e-mail without her permission.

Stephen Poley

2004-09-13, 11:15 pm

Stephen Poley

2004-09-14, 11:15 pm

jake

2004-09-15, 4:15 am

Stephen Poley

2004-09-16, 4:18 pm