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P VII answer for GeeWizz usability issues
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| Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio 2004-06-19, 12:14 pm |
| I'm copying and pasting:
------------------------
Hi Giuseppe,
Well, I could have given you the same assessment if the goal was using
GeeWizz as an actual web site interface. For the average Dreamweaver
user, DHTML scrollers should be used for non-essential material. For
advanced users - scrollers can be not only usable, but accessible too.
I'm going to make a little sample that I will post in an hour or so. I'd
like you post the sample for the same person who did the previous
assessment for you and let me know what he says.
---------------------------------------------------
Here you go:
http://www.projectseven.com/product.../accessible.htm
Now this is a few minutes work. It can be made to meet just about any
guideline it would need to.
Regards,
--
Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs
are scheduled for next Tuesday".
---------------------------------
HTH,
--
Pepe
Milano, Italy
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| Karl Groves 2004-06-19, 12:14 pm |
|
"Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio" <gcdbTOGLIMI@email.it> wrote in message
news:2jij4qF11ulsuU1@uni-berlin.de...
> I'm copying and pasting:
> ------------------------
> Hi Giuseppe,
>
> Well, I could have given you the same assessment if the goal was using
> GeeWizz as an actual web site interface. For the average Dreamweaver
> user, DHTML scrollers should be used for non-essential material. For
> advanced users - scrollers can be not only usable, but accessible too.
<snip>
> Here you go:
> http://www.projectseven.com/product.../accessible.htm
>
This person from Project Seven has obviously not set foot in a usability lab
and knows nothing of accessibility.
First, the issue of accessibility: This person makes the all-too-common
mistake of assuming that "accessibility" is measured by whether a
screenreader can read it. Blind people are not the only ones with special
physical considerations which must be addressed. There's also this concept
we have at my company which most people often ignore: Usability For Persons
With Disabilities. So what if a screenreader can read the page and that it
displays a text-only version when scripting is turned off? Is that
accessible AND usable, when persons with motor problems would have a XXXXX
of a time with that thing?
Second, there's the issue of general usability. Usability is measured by
three things: 1) How hard a system is to use, 2) How hard a system is to
learn, and 3) How hard a system is to RE-learn after an extended time away.
This "scroller" introduces something that is (potentially) difficult &
frustrating to use, even by able-bodied persons. It requires them to learn
something new, rather than keeping with web convention. The scroller
controls are not well labelled (I had no idea what that box was at the top),
operates too slowly (or could be perfect, only testing could determine) and
they are too close together. Fitts Law[1] is really getting ignored bigtime
with this thing. Making the controls so small and so close together can only
mean one thing: confusion and frustration by users.
-Karl
1 - http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~cs5724/g1/
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| Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio 2004-06-19, 12:15 pm |
| > anal and retentive
LOL!
You're being much too kind, Al...
:-)
--
Pepe
Milano, Italy
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| Karl Groves 2004-06-19, 12:15 pm |
|
"Al Sparber- PVII" <asparber@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:-OKdnVLpi_upzUndRVn-jw@adelphia.com...
> Karl Groves wrote:
> http://www.projectseven.com/product.../accessible.htm
>
> Two words come to mind:
>
> anal and retentive
>
> --
> Al Sparber - PVII
> http://www.projectseven.com
Interestingly, Al has completely snipped and ignored my comments about his
bogus claims of it being "usable" and "accessible".
Al, when you actually get some experience in a usability lab, let us know.
Here you go again. Please address them this time, as opposed to dodging
them:
This person from Project Seven has obviously not set foot in a usability lab
and knows nothing of accessibility.
First, the issue of accessibility: This person makes the all-too-common
mistake of assuming that "accessibility" is measured by whether a
screenreader can read it. Blind people are not the only ones with special
physical considerations which must be addressed. There's also this concept
we have at my company which most people often ignore: Usability For Persons
With Disabilities. So what if a screenreader can read the page and that it
displays a text-only version when scripting is turned off? Is that
accessible AND usable, when persons with motor problems would have a XXXXX
of a time with that thing?
Second, there's the issue of general usability. Usability is measured by
three things: 1) How hard a system is to use, 2) How hard a system is to
learn, and 3) How hard a system is to RE-learn after an extended time away.
This "scroller" introduces something that is (potentially) difficult &
frustrating to use, even by able-bodied persons. It requires them to learn
something new, rather than keeping with web convention. The scroller
controls are not well labelled (I had no idea what that box was at the top),
operates too slowly (or could be perfect, only testing could determine) and
they are too close together. Fitts Law[1] is really getting ignored bigtime
with this thing. Making the controls so small and so close together can only
mean one thing: confusion and frustration by users.
-Karl
1 - http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~cs5724/g1/
| |
| Al Sparber- PVII 2004-06-19, 12:15 pm |
| Karl Groves wrote:
> Interestingly, Al has completely snipped and ignored my comments
> about his bogus claims of it being "usable" and "accessible".
> Al, when you actually get some experience in a usability lab, let us
> know.
>
> Here you go again. Please address them this time, as opposed to
> dodging them:
>
> This person from Project Seven has obviously not set foot in a
> usability lab and knows nothing of accessibility.
> First, the issue of accessibility: This person makes the
> all-too-common mistake of assuming that "accessibility" is measured
> by whether a screenreader can read it. Blind people are not the only
> ones with special physical considerations which must be addressed.
> There's also this concept we have at my company which most people
> often ignore: Usability For Persons With Disabilities. So what if a
> screenreader can read the page and that it displays a text-only
> version when scripting is turned off? Is that accessible AND usable,
> when persons with motor problems would have a XXXXX of a time with
> that thing?
>
> Second, there's the issue of general usability. Usability is measured
> by three things: 1) How hard a system is to use, 2) How hard a system
> is to learn, and 3) How hard a system is to RE-learn after an
> extended time away. This "scroller" introduces something that is
> (potentially) difficult & frustrating to use, even by able-bodied
> persons. It requires them to learn something new, rather than keeping
> with web convention. The scroller controls are not well labelled (I
> had no idea what that box was at the top), operates too slowly (or
> could be perfect, only testing could determine) and they are too
> close together. Fitts Law[1] is really getting ignored bigtime with
> this thing. Making the controls so small and so close together can
> only mean one thing: confusion and frustration by users.
/OK - Feel free to contact me via e-mail, telephone, or carrier pigeon
if you'd like to learn how to make productive web sites. You are a
narrow-minded person, Karl - and are focusing in on a very small issue
in a very large site - to (I suppose) beat your chest. Enjoy. I was
dragged here by Mr. De Blasio to experience this phenomeon. I came, I
saw, and usenet is still full of sad little people.
Goodbye.
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
DW Extensions - Menu Systems - Tutorials - CSS FastPacks
---------------------------------------------------------
Webdev Newsgroup: news://forums.projectseven.com/pviiwebdev/
CSS Newsgroup: news://forums.projectseven.com/css/
RSS/XML Feeds: http://www.projectseven.com/xml/
| |
| Karl Groves 2004-06-19, 12:15 pm |
|
"Al Sparber- PVII" <asparber@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:4vOdnbEwZKnRz0ndRVn-jA@adelphia.com...
> Karl Groves wrote:
>
>
> /OK - Feel free to contact me via e-mail, telephone, or carrier pigeon
Since this discussion has begun on usenet, it should continue on usenet.
> if you'd like to learn how to make productive web sites.
"Productive websites" do not use cutesy tricks like slow-moving, poorly
labelled, "DHTML Scrollers" with small controls.
> You are a
> narrow-minded person, Karl - and are focusing in on a very small issue
> in a very large site - to (I suppose) beat your chest.
The original post included a link to a specific page with one thing on it:
the scroller.
Therefore, what would a logical person deduce was up for comment?
I'm not saying it isn't a cool widget you've built. In fact, I often look at
Project Seven for hints an ideas. I just find the claims of being "usable"
and "accessible" to be bogus, ignorant, and basically "bullshit". I make the
same assessment of your ego, Al.
If you were to claim that your "scroller" was neat, attractive, and degraded
well, then I would agree 100%. But it *is not* accessible for persons with
motor disorders and it is also not user-friendly. You'd be much better off
not attempting to make such claims because they show that you don't really
know much about either.
-Karl
| |
| kchayka 2004-06-20, 7:15 pm |
| Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio wrote:
>
> scrollers can be not only usable, but accessible too.
>
> http://www.projectseven.com/product.../accessible.htm
I had JS disabled when I first went there. There was just plain,
unstyled text. It's one thing to post that as as example, but it might
be a different story to see it in context. Just a thought.
I enabled JS and reloaded. The controls are still non-intuitive, but I
ignored that for now.
Hit the tab key. It started autoscrolling all by itself. Huh? How do I
make it stop? ESC doesn't do it any more. I didn't bother going any further.
If y'all want to use something like this because you think it's a neat
gimmick, go ahead. But I think you're mistaken if you think it is
user-friendly in any way.
--
Reply email address is a bottomless spam bucket.
Please reply to the group so everyone can share.
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