Site Ratings & Reviews - HOW competition

Author

HOW competition

iehsmith

2003-12-03, 7:24 pm

hey y'all,

The HOW Interactive Design Competition is accepting entries for
theirInteractive Design Competition, but the entry deadline is
November 10, 2003.

http://www.howdesign.com/competitions/

On the same page you'll find entry form for the I.D. Interactive
Media Design Review, deadline Feb. 16th

2003-12-03, 7:24 pm

iehsmith wrote:

quote:

> hey y'all,
>
> The HOW Interactive Design Competition is accepting entries for
> theirInteractive Design Competition, but the entry deadline is
> November 10, 2003.
>
> http://www.howdesign.com/competitions/
>
> On the same page you'll find entry form for the I.D. Interactive
> Media Design Review, deadline Feb. 16th
>

Interesting! Does this
(from your site's source code) :
__________________
<table width="765" border="0"
cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" height="223">
__________________

....mean that my entry will be
judged by 1995 conventions?
;)
--
Cheers, m

iehsmith

2003-12-03, 7:24 pm

Um, my site would have nothing to do with it actually.
HOW is a premiere design magazine that I am not affiliated
with. Being mentioned in a positive manner in any of their
publications would be worth your weight in gold.

But I understand that they may not meet your code
standards so you probably aren't interested. Of course,
since their criteria is largely based on design, they
may have to judge your site by 1995 standards;)

quote:

> From: m <NOXwebmasterx@xmbstevensx.com>
> Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
> Newsgroups: alt.html.critique
> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 18:46:55 GMT
> Subject: Re: HOW competition
>
> iehsmith wrote:
>
>
> Interesting! Does this
> (from your site's source code) :
> __________________
> <table width="765" border="0"
> cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" height="223">
> __________________
>
> ...mean that my entry will be
> judged by 1995 conventions?
> ;)
> --
> Cheers, m
>

2003-12-03, 7:24 pm

iehsmith wrote:

quote:

> But I understand that they may not meet your code
> standards so you probably aren't interested. Of course,
> since their criteria is largely based on design, they
> may have to judge your site by 1995 standards;)

It's good to hear web design has nothing to do with code! ;)

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to jump into my car's
visual appearance and go get myself a moon pie.

iehsmith

2003-12-03, 7:24 pm

MB,

I apologize for being snippy.
I posted this to the group because I think there are some
talented designer-developers within it that may benefit
from this type of recognition, nothing more.
I am not up to HOW's standards by any means. I can come
up with the designs but cannot "make them so" to my
satisfaction yet.

sorry,
inez

quote:

> From: iehsmith <inezhsmithspammenot@earthlink.net>
> Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
> Newsgroups: alt.html.critique
> Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2003 21:05:01 GMT
> Subject: Re: HOW competition
>
> Um, my site would have nothing to do with it actually.
> HOW is a premiere design magazine that I am not affiliated
> with. Being mentioned in a positive manner in any of their
> publications would be worth your weight in gold.
>
> But I understand that they may not meet your code
> standards so you probably aren't interested. Of course,
> since their criteria is largely based on design, they
> may have to judge your site by 1995 standards;)
>
>

e n | c k m a

2003-12-03, 7:24 pm

> The HOW Interactive Design Competition is accepting entries for

quote:

> theirInteractive Design Competition, but the entry deadline is
> November 10, 2003.

The deal with these competitions is that they're after Interactive Design
and Creativity submissions. Which, usually, means a Flash-based artsy site
with "innovative" (hard to use) navigation and has absolutely nothing to do
with the standards compliant HTML code needed to reduce .html file sizes and
increase usability/accessibility.

iehsmith

2003-12-03, 7:24 pm

And so?...

Yes, I'm sure most are Flash based. I am not judging the
values of the site owners, and I don't know what other
versions they may display for other browsers.

Apparently there is a market for all types of development,
and some subjects are expected to be artfully designed
by viewers.

I don't think they would rule you out if you found it possible
to create a well designed, standards compliant html site.
But it would have to be distinctly well designed.

quote:

> From: "e n | c k m a" <bob@marley.com>
> Organization: BigPond Internet Services
> Newsgroups: alt.html.critique
> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 00:09:05 GMT
> Subject: Re: HOW competition
>
>
> The deal with these competitions is that they're after Interactive Design
> and Creativity submissions. Which, usually, means a Flash-based artsy site
> with "innovative" (hard to use) navigation and has absolutely nothing to do
> with the standards compliant HTML code needed to reduce .html file sizes and
> increase usability/accessibility.
>
>

William Tasso

2003-12-03, 7:24 pm

iehsmith wrote:

quote:

> ...
> Yes, I'm sure most are Flash based. I am not judging the
> values of the site owners, and I don't know what other
> versions they may display for other browsers.

other versions? other browsers? do people still do that? this really is a
competition for nostalgia buffs then?

quote:

> ...
> I don't think they would rule you out if you found it possible
> to create a well designed, standards compliant html site.
> But it would have to be distinctly well designed.
>

Sounds like winning an award for the smallest fruit or the slowest car.
There just isn't any point.

In any event, I wish you no malice, but if you made usability and
accessibility pre-requisites for entry to your design competition then you
would gain a shed load of support in this and other forums. I suggest the
benefits to you and your organisation of the free publicity would be
sufficient motivation.

Unfortunately for me, I have to exclude myself from such considerations
being completely 'design' challenged.

btw: if it was my competion I'd automatically exclude all sites using blue
as the dominant colour.

--
William Tasso - http://WilliamTasso.com

e n | c k m a

2003-12-03, 7:24 pm

> In any event, I wish you no malice, but if you made usability and

quote:

> accessibility pre-requisites for entry to your design competition then you
> would gain a shed load of support in this and other forums.

It'd also make the competition a lot harder (a good thing).
I'd really love to see a competition do that - it'd make things very
interesting and it's a very different idea. Perhaps W3C should host such a
competition.

quote:

> btw: if it was my competion I'd automatically exclude all sites using blue
> as the dominant colour.

lol

gmcclary

2003-12-03, 7:24 pm

"iehsmith" <inezhsmithspammenot@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:BBC7F58F.B90F%inezhsmithspammenot@earthlink.net...

quote:

> hey y'all,
>
> The HOW Interactive Design Competition is accepting entries for
> theirInteractive Design Competition, but the entry deadline is
> November 10, 2003.
>
> http://www.howdesign.com/competitions/
>
> On the same page you'll find entry form for the I.D. Interactive
> Media Design Review, deadline Feb. 16th
>

Just a question...
What are the guidelines?
I mean,

<suffer="delusions of grandeur">
html 3.2 and tables
bright lights in the top corners,
popcorn, palm tree and bathing beauty, center,
hip-hop in both ears+90%
</suffering>

gmcclary

2003-12-03, 7:24 pm

"e n | c k m a" <bob@marley.com> wrote in message
news:1CEob.173219$bo1.93641@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

quote:

you[QUOTE][color=darkred]
>
> It'd also make the competition a lot harder (a good thing).
> I'd really love to see a competition do that - it'd make things very
> interesting and it's a very different idea. Perhaps W3C should host such

quote:

> competition.
>

You are onto something here!

Absolutely, W3C should (and could) begin a competition for (pages) using the
standard HTML and CSS <i>and</i> the elements of design.

(What? not flash centric, no frames, not JavaScript dependant, and
accessibility compliant)

What an opportunity!

But, Oh, Well... </opportunity>

e n | c k m a

2003-12-03, 7:24 pm

> Absolutely, W3C should (and could) begin a competition for (pages) using
the

quote:

> standard HTML and CSS <i>and</i> the elements of design.

Maybe the Web Standards Projects (url:www.webstandards.org) would be a
better place for the competition if the w3c aren't "into that kind of thing"

gmcclary

2003-12-03, 7:24 pm

"e n | c k m a" <bob@marley.com> wrote in message
news:CRKob.173681$bo1.22801@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

quote:

> the
>
> Maybe the Web Standards Projects (url:www.webstandards.org) would be a
> better place for the competition if the w3c aren't "into that kind of

thing"

quote:

>
>

I've only seen a couple of these "design" thingies... perhaps because I'm
not interested and not paying attention. But the ones I do remember seeing,
it seemed to me, had their own ax to grind, their own product or philosophy
to peddle, and I would not be surprised if the winners were, um, kind of,
obvious...
So, a contest or competition which included good current coding/
accessibility <i>without</i> pushing a product could benefit the community
as a whole.

Taking your idea to W3C or webstandards seems to me to be a good idea.

Glenn
--

Some man may think for me, but it is better for me to think for myself.
Henry David Thoreau

iehsmith

2003-12-03, 7:24 pm

> From: "William Tasso" <news27@tbdata.com>

quote:

> Organization: <a href=" http://www.WilliamTasso.com/"> William Tasso </a>
> Reply-To: "William Tasso" <news27@tbdata.com>
> Newsgroups: alt.html.critique
> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 01:57:52 -0000
> Subject: Re: HOW competition
>
> accessibility pre-requisites for entry to your design competition

It's not my contest!!! I only wish I owned HOW magazine. If
I did own a magazine who's subject matter were design,
then I figure any competition I had would probably be based
on... um, design?

I doubt seriously that they are worried in the least about
gaining the support of this little group. They have the
attention of their market share quite well in hand, along
with I.D. and Print magazines. I think they'll continue to
do just fine. The good thin is that those entrants who
make the list will be benefited as I've been told by more
than one professional designer that inclusion in one of
these publications has not only earned them respect (or
envy) by their peers, but has also brought them business...
the bottom line.

geez! It was just a heads up for those who might be interested...
not a challenge to anyone's way of life!

quote:

> Unfortunately for me, I have to exclude myself from such considerations
> being completely 'design' challenged.

Well, I'm not completely design challenged, but in the
case of web development I am. I usually acid test in
NS 4.79, so lots of the CSS sites (that supposed
grant us the ability to design) just turn into plain text
sites or, probably in combination with DHTML, simply
disappear.
I can't "design" around the standards. I really think the
standard setters would be very happy if the web would go
back to just sharing text and mathematical information
and the world of commercial world would leave them alone
in peace. Otherwise I would think they would come up
with a way of coding that actually allowed for the easy
incorporation of design.
As for me though, I don't need everyone to be able to see
my site, if I ever really get it built. Even at that, I feel
like I should put up atleast 3 versions... 1) the way I
want it, 2) allowing for the way the viewer wants it,
and then 3) in plain unadulterated text.

I only wish I knew Flash, but I don't like going to a site
and not being given a choice either because they only
did a Flash version, or it sensed my plugin and forced
me into Flash. That annoys even me.

I don't have a problem with anyone who chooses to stick
to standards and accessibility. But I do find design relevant
in the world of commerce and communications, online or off.
Why should everything have to be their way or the highway?

iehsmith

2003-12-03, 7:24 pm

quote:

> From: "gmcclary" <gmcclary@hotmail.com>
> Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
> Newsgroups: alt.html.critique
> Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 08:53:31 -0800
> Subject: Re: HOW competition
>
> But the ones I do remember seeing,
> it seemed to me, had their own ax to grind, their own product or philosophy

Seems to me that's whats happening here.

I thought an HTML group would be about supporting each other
in working with code and not require that everyone feel the same
way about it's application.

My mistake.

iehsmith

2003-12-03, 7:24 pm

> From: "e n | c k m a" <bob@marley.com>

quote:

> Organization: BigPond Internet Services
> Newsgroups: alt.html.critique
> Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 09:16:18 GMT
> Subject: Re: HOW competition
>
> the
>
> Maybe the Web Standards Projects (url:www.webstandards.org) would be a
> better place for the competition if the w3c aren't "into that kind of thing"
>
>

I think either would be a great idea, but I doubt if there's
any interest. They'd have to outsource the judging on the
design portion of the competition. And to make it worth
anyone's while they'd have to find some publisher or other
outlet to mention the contest and the winners where
business and corporate buyer would see it.

doubtful. maybe just a coding shoot off would do, just for
fun.

Eric Bohlman

2003-12-03, 7:24 pm

iehsmith <inezhsmithspammenot@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:BBC98A9B.BAC2%inezhsmithspammenot@earthlink.net:

quote:

>
> It's not my contest!!! I only wish I owned HOW magazine. If
> I did own a magazine who's subject matter were design,
> then I figure any competition I had would probably be based
> on... um, design?

Nobody in this thread was disagreeing with that. They were saying that the
winning entries in an ideal competition would provide a real-life
demonstration of "Usable. Accessible. Visually exciting. Pick any
*three*." Something a lot of people, and you write as if you're one of
them, seem unable or unwilling to believe is possible.

quote:

> I can't "design" around the standards. I really think the
> standard setters would be very happy if the web would go
> back to just sharing text and mathematical information
> and the world of commercial world would leave them alone
> in peace. Otherwise I would think they would come up
> with a way of coding that actually allowed for the easy
> incorporation of design.

I think what you're wishing they had done was come up with a way of coding
that would make *Web* design work the same way as *print* design. The
reason they didn't do that is that it would be impossible; there are too
many fundamental differences between the Web and print for it to be
possible. Web design just has to be done differently from print design,
just as set or costume design for a TV show has to be done somewhat
differently from set or costume design for a stage play.

Good design always works with, rather than fights, the inherent
characteristics of the medium. What works visually best in a pen-and-ink
drawing is going to differ from what works visually best in an oil
painting, and good design in either medium is going to be quite different
from good design in an artistic photo. The mark of a poor designer is that
his designs in one medium look like an imitation of a different medium
rather than something original. And that's exactly how Web designs that
are based on delusions of placing fixed-size pixels on a fixed-size canvas
come across. A good Web design delivers its visual message under a wide
variety of conditions, not just under perfect conditions. Bad Web designs
are like spoiled children: they go to pieces if they can't get their way.

iehsmith

2003-12-03, 7:25 pm

NO, all I'm saying is why does everything HAVE meet your
standards and HAVE be accessible to everyone? Why are these
the only rules to live by. Am I not allowed to use HTML any
way I see fit? Are the web police coming?

quote:

> From: Eric Bohlman <ebohlman@earthlink.net>
> Organization: OMS Development
> Newsgroups: alt.html.critique
> Date: 1 Nov 2003 22:38:08 GMT
> Subject: Re: HOW competition
>
> Nobody in this thread was disagreeing with that. They were saying that the
> winning entries in an ideal competition would provide a real-life
> demonstration of "Usable. Accessible. Visually exciting. Pick any
> *three*." Something a lot of people, and you write as if you're one of
> them, seem unable or unwilling to believe is possible.

iehsmith

2003-12-03, 7:25 pm

quote:

> From: Eric Bohlman <ebohlman@earthlink.net>
> Organization: OMS Development
> Newsgroups: alt.html.critique
> Date: 1 Nov 2003 22:38:08 GMT
> Subject: Re: HOW competition
>
> Good design always works with, rather than fights, the inherent
> characteristics of the medium.

But other forms of design & art don't have to conform to
accessibility. If someone is color blind, then they just don't
see that ad in the magazine the way other people do. If they
need reading glasses to read a book, well they put them on
or just don't read the book.
If a client wants Flash and it's not going to hurt his business
to have it, why shouldn't he have it?
I don't know, it all just has a very political feel. It's seems
like internet PC, and when something gets shoved down my
throat enough, sooner or latter I'm going to regurgitate it.
I'd just as soon relax and do what I can do the way I do it.
I'm not forcing anyone to pay attention to it or like it.

Sh*t, all I did was mention a competition thinking someone
might benefit. Apparently no one here thinks that something
that meet standards could possibly compete. I had thought
they could. I must be wrong.

William Tasso

2003-12-03, 7:25 pm

iehsmith wrote:

quote:

> From: "William Tasso" <news27@tbdata.com>
>
> It's not my contest!!! I only wish I owned HOW magazine. If
> I did own a magazine who's subject matter were design,
> then I figure any competition I had would probably be based
> on... um, design?

of course - and you have read the notes in this thread by Eric Bohlman on
medium.

So think on this. My business does a lot of presentations - a bit of a
stage management and the opening sequence fills the air with smoke, noise
and flashing lights to introduce the opening speaker. I was thinking of
taking out a series of full page magazine ads to reach a wider audience.
Unfortunately, I've yet to find a designer that can translate our stage show
to paper - still smoke and static lighting just doesn't do it, and the
sound - well you can imagine how frustrating that is. So what do you think?
I write off all the designers as stupid and pass of the opportunity or I
comission something different that works with a paper medium.

quote:

> I doubt seriously that they are worried in the least about
> gaining the support of this little group.

LOL - and you care so passionately on their behalf.

One more thought: You know what viral marketing is? Just check the usenet
nics of the regular contributors here - then do a few searches of recent
posts at the archive. You might be surprised how far your message could be
spread with a little care and thought on your part.

quote:

>
> geez! It was just a heads up for those who might be interested...
> not a challenge to anyone's way of life!

hmmm - the challenging seems to have come from you.

quote:

>
> Well, I'm not completely design challenged, but in the
> case of web development I am. I usually acid test in
> NS 4.79, so lots of the CSS sites (that supposed
> grant us the ability to design) just turn into plain text
> sites or, probably in combination with DHTML, simply
> disappear.

You're right - lots do.

quote:

> I can't "design" around the standards.

Yes you can - if you apply yourself to the task.

quote:

> As for me though, I don't need everyone to be able to see
> my site,

It's an oft repeated mantra that is unfortunately flawed. Where's the
demographic profiling data that correlates spend with technology employed?

quote:

> if I ever really get it built. Even at that, I feel
> like I should put up atleast 3 versions... 1) the way I
> want it, 2) allowing for the way the viewer wants it,
> and then 3) in plain unadulterated text.

That takes the nostalgia thing to unprecedented extremes. Three versions of
every page will be an administrative nightmare.

quote:

> ...
> I don't have a problem with anyone who chooses to stick
> to standards and accessibility. But I do find design relevant
> in the world of commerce and communications, online or off.

indeed it is, but that last note sounds like they're mutually exclusive -
are they?

--
William Tasso - http://WilliamTasso.com

e n | c k m a

2003-12-03, 7:25 pm

> If a client wants Flash and it's not going to hurt his business

quote:

> to have it, why shouldn't he have it?

He should, he is a paying client after all. However, he should also be
warned about the affect of overusing that particular technology. If he
doesn't care, and the intended audience wouldn't care, then go nuts.

quote:

> I'm not forcing anyone to pay attention to it or like it.

Neither are we. People choose to come to this newsgroup, they can also
choose to ignore what we say.

quote:

> Sh*t, all I did was mention a competition thinking someone
> might benefit.

Yes, thanks for the heads up - I like keeping an eye on web design
competitions.

quote:

> Apparently no one here thinks that something
> that meet standards could possibly compete. I had thought
> they could. I must be wrong.

Yeah, probably. But technically, something that met standards *could*
possibly compete - if the code used to load the Flash plugin was standards
compliant ;)

Toby A Inkster

2003-12-03, 7:25 pm

iehsmith wrote:

quote:

> I can't "design" around the standards. I really think the
> standard setters would be very happy if the web would go
> back to just sharing text and mathematical information
> and the world of commercial world would leave them alone
> in peace. Otherwise I would think they would come up
> with a way of coding that actually allowed for the easy
> incorporation of design.

They have! It's called SVG. Think of it as Flash in XML.

For most browsers SVG requires an external plugin, although Mozilla has
some support built-in.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me - http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?id=132

kchayka

2003-12-03, 7:25 pm

e n | c k m a wrote:

quote:

>
> Maybe the Web Standards Projects (url:www.webstandards.org) would be a
> better place for the competition

While posting this kind of competition at webstandards.org might give it
pretty good visibility, I don't think these guys would be the best
judges. Many of the sites that get spot-lighted by Zeldman and friends
are not really examples of good design. They tend toward pixel-perfect
layouts with microfonts just as much as any site not coded to standards,
or Flash sites. It's just done with CSS instead, proof that coding to
standards doesn't automatically make a better design, just like CSS
layouts aren't automatically more usable or accessible than table layouts.

I've been looking for non-blog sites that are attractive, coded to
standards, *and* scalable for some time now. It's a very, very short list.

--
To email a reply, remove (dash)un(dash). Mail sent to the un
address is considered spam and automatically deleted.

Toby A Inkster

2003-12-03, 7:25 pm

kchayka wrote:

quote:

> Many of the sites that get spot-lighted by Zeldman and friends
> are not really examples of good design.

Which is why a *panel* of specialists is really required. For example:

* Jakob Nielsen <URL:http://www.useit.com/>to judge how usable the sites
are;

* Mark Pilgrim <URL:http://www.diveintomark.org/> for accessibility;

* Tim Berners-Lee <URL:http://www.w3.org/people/berners-lee/> for how well
it adheres to W3C design ideals; and

* Laurence Llewelyn-Bowen <URL:http://www.llb.co.uk/> to judge prettiness.

And also perhaps a dogsbody type person to do the easy checks (validation,
does it work in X, Y and Z browsers) before passing it on to the panel of
judges.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me - http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?id=132

West

2003-12-03, 7:25 pm

"kchayka" <kcha-un-yka@sihope.com> wrote in message
news:3fa5252e$0$40218$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net...
[snip]

quote:

>
> I've been looking for non-blog sites that are attractive, coded to
> standards, *and* scalable for some time now. It's a very, very short

list.

quote:

>

"It's a very, very short list."
....that's not surprising!
....css is too restricting!

--
W

kchayka

2003-12-03, 7:25 pm

West wrote:

quote:

> "kchayka" <kcha-un-yka@sihope.com> wrote in message
> news:3fa5252e$0$40218$39cecf19@news.twtelecom.net...
> list.
>
> "It's a very, very short list."
> ...that's not surprising!
> ...css is too restricting!

It has nothing to do with CSS really, but with being well-designed for
web media (which includes but is not limited to scalability).
Award-winning sites usually fail miserably as models of good _web_ design.

--
To email a reply, remove (dash)un(dash). Mail sent to the un
address is considered spam and automatically deleted.