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web design as a business....?
|
|
| Simonbullen 2005-01-31, 7:26 am |
| hi all, I'm just looking for info/advice/discussion on the topic of Self
Employed Web Design... it's something that crosses my mind, what do people
think you need to start being a self employed web designer? how hard is the
market? what are the first steps I would need to take? thanks for any input...
| |
|
| Simonbullen wrote:
> hi all, I'm just looking for info/advice/discussion on the topic of
> Self Employed Web Design... it's something that crosses my mind,
> what do people think you need to start being a self employed web
> designer? how hard is the market? what are the first steps I would
> need to take? thanks for any input...
Speaking from personal experience, I think you need to be a bit dumb! ... if
you sit and plan it all, there will be so many things to consider that you'd
never go ahead with it!
Where are you based? There will be lots of boring stuff like setting up the
company legally, tax etc - but it all changes depending on which country (or
state) you're in.
Your market will depend on your own experience - you have to define what
your target customers are, and then get after them. The first few customers
are easy - because they're often companies who you know personally, or are
owned by friends. After a year or so you'll start getting a reputation, and
people will approach you. It's the bit between the 'Friends' and the
'Reputation' that could be difficult. But if you're anything near
half-decent as a designer, you'll do OK. The hardest thing to learn is how
to sell yourself - get that sorted, and you'll be flying.
Have a look at http://www.webdevbiz.com for some good tips, and join the
public newsgroup at forums.webdevbiz.net - frequented by lots of web
developers who've done exactly what you're considering.
HTH,
Pete.
--
Peter Connolly
http://www.acutecomputing.co.uk
Derby
UK
| |
| .: Nadia :. *TMM* 2005-01-31, 7:26 am |
| Take a look at www.webdevbiz.com - quite a few useful articles there for web
designers (or those starting out).
You will find a link for a forum that discusses web dev stuff that may be of
interest (some of us that post here, also post there :) You'd be more than
welcome I am sure.
--
Nadia
--------------------------------------------
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Ecommerce - YVStore | SEO Articles |Tutorials
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"Simonbullen" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:ctl0bc$9cg$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> hi all, I'm just looking for info/advice/discussion on the topic of Self
> Employed Web Design... it's something that crosses my mind, what do
> people
> think you need to start being a self employed web designer? how hard is
> the
> market? what are the first steps I would need to take? thanks for any
> input...
>
| |
|
|
"Simonbullen" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:ctl0bc$9cg$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> hi all, I'm just looking for info/advice/discussion on the topic of Self
> Employed Web Design... it's something that crosses my mind, what do
people
> think you need to start being a self employed web designer? how hard is
the
> market? what are the first steps I would need to take? thanks for any
input...
>
FWIW, I think you need
enough money in the bank to make sure you don't start out under pressure
an in-depth knowledge of HTML, CSS, CMS
a knowledge of basic design principles
good business sense
a passion for the job
IMO, there are too many variables to give you a definitive answer.
1) Are you already self employed in another field? i.e. do you have
experience of running a business.
2) Are you already a designer but have no experience of running your own
business.
3) What part of the world are you located.
4) Is there a definite market for the service you intend to offer or does
the number of designers outstrip the number of customers.
You might find some further information on the subject here
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=e...le+Search&meta=
Whatever you decide to do, good luck.
Terry
| |
| Simonbullen 2005-01-31, 12:41 pm |
| hi, thanks for your reply, and the useful tips, I currently work for a company
and design, build and maintain the Intranet site, alone, and it's just a
thought of where my future may lie, I certainly have a passion for it and love
what i do, and yes I agree about the finance bit, it's a risk going on your own
for anyone, so good to have backup right. I have good knowledge of Dreamweaver,
fireworks, contribute and CSS, and am just starting on Photoshop, CMS not so
good, purely because of the ease of contribute, but I do understand the concept
as my company uses one for thier external site... thanks again, it's great to
have the feedback and info
| |
| terry 2005-01-31, 12:53 pm |
|
"Simonbullen" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:ctl581$gn5$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> hi, thanks for your reply, and the useful tips,
My pleasure.
You're more than halfway there already. Just don't do what I did a few
years ago. Forgot to ask the wife's opinion ;-)
Terry
| |
| Simonbullen 2005-01-31, 12:54 pm |
| :)
by that i'm assuming she wasn't best pleased you took the self employed route....?
| |
|
| Start doing it as a part time business, nights, weekends, but keep your job
now, see how you do in the next year.
"Simonbullen" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:ctlc4g$rgs$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> :)
>
> by that i'm assuming she wasn't best pleased you took the self employed
route....?
| |
|
|
> Take a look at www.webdevbiz.com - quite a few useful articles there for
> web
> designers (or those starting out).
>
> You will find a link for a forum that discusses web dev stuff that may be
> of interest (some of us that post here, also post there :) You'd be more
> than welcome I am sure.
You're definitely welcome. :-)
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
| dan mode 2005-01-31, 7:20 pm |
| this is a bad idea......bad bad bad
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
(ahhh...vanity)
__
"Simonbullen" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:ctl0bc$9cg$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> hi all, I'm just looking for info/advice/discussion on the topic of Self
> Employed Web Design... it's something that crosses my mind, what do
people
> think you need to start being a self employed web designer? how hard is
the
> market? what are the first steps I would need to take? thanks for any
input...
>
| |
| Nadia *TMM* 2005-01-31, 11:17 pm |
| Why?? :)
--
Nadia
--------------------------------------------
Templates | http://www.DreamweaverResources.com
CSS-P Layouts |Dropdown/Flyout Menu Designs
Ecommerce| SEO Articles |Tutorials
---------------------------------------------
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---------------------------------------------
"dan mode" <dan.mode@edom.nad.com> wrote in message
news:ctlus6$rqc$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> this is a bad idea......bad bad bad
>
> --
>
> Dan
> blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
> *NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
> (ahhh...vanity)
> __
> "Simonbullen" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
> news:ctl0bc$9cg$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> people
> the
> input...
>
>
| |
|
|
> this is a bad idea......bad bad bad
What, discussing running a business? Why? We do it all the time. :-)
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-01, 12:50 pm |
| I try to talk people out of it that are not already in it for one reason
only......so that those that are already in it, with their expertise, might
be the ones that receive the business of webdesigning. Since these people
have already chosen it as a career path and means of income.
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
Insert > Flash > Flash button....do it
(ahhh...vanity)
__
"dan mode" <dan.mode@edom.nad.com> wrote in message
news:ctlus6$rqc$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> this is a bad idea......bad bad bad
>
> --
>
> Dan
> blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
> *NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
> (ahhh...vanity)
> __
> "Simonbullen" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
> news:ctl0bc$9cg$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> people
> the
> input...
>
>
| |
|
|
>I try to talk people out of it that are not already in it for one reason
> only......so that those that are already in it, with their expertise,
> might
> be the ones that receive the business of webdesigning. Since these people
> have already chosen it as a career path and means of income.
Hm, you must not like what I do, then, encouraging lots of people to try it
out and hopefully succeed. :-) I find that there's plenty of business for
anyone who does it well.
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-01, 6:29 pm |
| P@tty,
you are right - and don't get me wrong...I do enjoy helping people and if
someone chooses to start a webdesign biz...more power to them. but, if
someone asks my opinion, I say don't do it.
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
Insert > Flash > Flash button....do it
(ahhh...vanity)
__
"P@tty" <patty@carolinawebsolutions.com> wrote in message
news:ctof2t$p1n$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
people[color=darkred]
>
> Hm, you must not like what I do, then, encouraging lots of people to try
it
> out and hopefully succeed. :-) I find that there's plenty of business
for
> anyone who does it well.
>
>
> --
> Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
> Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
> Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
> --
>
>
| |
| Joe {RoastHorse} 2005-02-01, 6:29 pm |
| scared of the competition?
joe
dan mode wrote:
> I try to talk people out of it that are not already in it for one reason
> only......so that those that are already in it, with their expertise, might
> be the ones that receive the business of webdesigning. Since these people
> have already chosen it as a career path and means of income.
>
--
=================================
Kanzo Limited
www.kanzostudio.com
=================================
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-01, 6:29 pm |
| not at all :)
but the fewer the better
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
Insert > Flash > Flash button....do it
(ahhh...vanity)
__
"Joe {RoastHorse}" <joe@roast-horse.commmmm> wrote in message
news:ctogic$qpq$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> scared of the competition?
>
>
> joe
>
>
>
> dan mode wrote:
might[color=darkred]
people[color=darkred]
>
> --
>
> =================================
>
> Kanzo Limited
> www.kanzostudio.com
>
> =================================
| |
|
|
> you are right - and don't get me wrong...I do enjoy helping people and if
> someone chooses to start a webdesign biz...more power to them. but, if
> someone asks my opinion, I say don't do it.
Fair enough. But you might want to tell the person asking the *reasons* you
think it's a bad idea to start a web design business. I'm still not clear on
what they are myself. :-)
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
|
|
> not at all :)
> but the fewer the better
But... if you're not worried about competition, then why the fewer the
better?
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-01, 6:30 pm |
| it is like shopping for a used car with only 5k to work with. you have to
go out and try/test drive about 50 before you find something that is the
best for the buck...now, that said if there were fewer out there...you could
find the best faster and with less effort.
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
Insert > Flash > Flash button....do it
(ahhh...vanity)
__
"P@tty" <patty@carolinawebsolutions.com> wrote in message
news:ctohnp$svi$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
>
> But... if you're not worried about competition, then why the fewer the
> better?
>
>
> --
> Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
> Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
> Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
> --
>
>
| |
|
|
> it is like shopping for a used car with only 5k to work with. you have to
> go out and try/test drive about 50 before you find something that is the
> best for the buck...now, that said if there were fewer out there...you
> could
> find the best faster and with less effort.
So you figure it's better for the consumer to have just a few choices?
You're a nut case. :-)
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-01, 6:30 pm |
| well - do you get a choice in picking a power company?
LOL - that is not what I'm getting at....what I mean is, with less
competition means more business. Is that better for the consumer? Not
necessarily, but better for me. But, it is better for the consumer in that
they get a website that is good. :)
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
Insert > Flash > Flash button....do it
(ahhh...vanity)
__
"P@tty" <patty@carolinawebsolutions.com> wrote in message
news:ctoigj$104$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
to[color=darkred]
>
> So you figure it's better for the consumer to have just a few choices?
> You're a nut case. :-)
>
>
> --
> Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
> Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
> Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
> --
>
>
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-01, 6:30 pm |
| well the 2nd is that if they pick a company that has been in the business
for many years they get a better site reather than picking a kid in the
basement that just got started. make sense?
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
Insert > Flash > Flash button....do it
(ahhh...vanity)
__
"P@tty" <patty@carolinawebsolutions.com> wrote in message
news:ctojh5$2b7$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
>
> No, and hardly any in picking an operating system either, and it sucks!
>
that[color=darkred]
>
>
> Dan. What you're saying is that (1) you tell people not to start a web
> design business, the real reason being you don't want their competition.
>
> But you mention this other vague reason, that somehow it's better for the
> consumer for there not to be much competition, which is, frankly,
nonsense.
> :-) If I were you, I'd skip the second reason and just be honest about
the
> first. :-D
>
>
> --
> Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
> Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
> Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
> --
>
>
>
>
| |
|
|
> well - do you get a choice in picking a power company?
No, and hardly any in picking an operating system either, and it sucks!
> LOL - that is not what I'm getting at....what I mean is, with less
> competition means more business. Is that better for the consumer? Not
> necessarily, but better for me. But, it is better for the consumer in that
> they get a website that is good. :)
Dan. What you're saying is that (1) you tell people not to start a web
design business, the real reason being you don't want their competition.
But you mention this other vague reason, that somehow it's better for the
consumer for there not to be much competition, which is, frankly, nonsense.
:-) If I were you, I'd skip the second reason and just be honest about the
first. :-D
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
| Tim Gallant 2005-02-01, 6:30 pm |
| > well the 2nd is that if they pick a company that has been in the business
> for many years they get a better site reather than picking a kid in the
> basement that just got started. make sense?
Nope. Everybody "just got started" at some point. And everybody stops at
some point. As with any matter of being a consumer, a wise consumer shops
around. And in this business, they are likely to weigh experience and proven
design skills over against (possibly) paying a little less.
tim
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-01, 6:30 pm |
| >And in this business, they are likely to weigh experience and proven
> design skills over against (possibly) paying a little less.
I have lost a few jobs to 'my little brother knows html and will do our site
for much less'. I know that these people are not educated in the web and
what a good site really is. And yes, they get what they paid for - a
showstoppers.
> Nope. Everybody "just got started" at some point
true - and my advice is not to start, just like smoking....
>As with any matter of being a consumer, a wise consumer shops
> around.
yes, and the less to shop thru the better
:)
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
(ahhh...vanity)
Insert > Flash > Flash button....do it
__
"Tim Gallant" <tim@timgallant.org> wrote in message
news:ctokpt$47t$1@forums.macromedia.com...
business[color=darkred]
>
> Nope. Everybody "just got started" at some point. And everybody stops at
> some point. As with any matter of being a consumer, a wise consumer shops
> around. And in this business, they are likely to weigh experience and
proven
> design skills over against (possibly) paying a little less.
>
> tim
>
>
| |
|
| I think anyone who wants to start a web biz needs his/her head looked into
or sent to the Reaper :)
> I have lost a few jobs to 'my little brother knows html and will do our
site
> for much less'. I know that these people are not educated in the web and
> what a good site really is. And yes, they get what they paid for - a
> showstoppers.
The other day I was contacted by two company's that wanted to be placed on a
site I have, they just wanted to know if I could possibly place a link, I
looked at the sites and they were crap, I took a couple of screenshots of
these broken sites, sent them the images and told them I cannot possibly
link to such mess as I have a reputation. I also gave them a list of what to
get rid of, basically the list was the whole site. I haven't heard from them
since. I don't care about dipsticks such as these people because they don't
care about themselves.
In hindsight I wish I had been more aggressive and just told them to piss
off :)
--
Cheers Pablo
_____________________
Whoever said "image doesn't matter" was lying.
http://www.dellwebsites.com
______________________________________
"dan mode" <dan.mode@edom.nad.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
ctol92$4rs$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
> I have lost a few jobs to 'my little brother knows html and will do our
site
> for much less'. I know that these people are not educated in the web and
> what a good site really is. And yes, they get what they paid for - a
> showstoppers.
>
>
> true - and my advice is not to start, just like smoking....
>
>
> yes, and the less to shop thru the better
>
> :)
>
>
> --
>
> Dan
> blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
> *NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
> (ahhh...vanity)
> Insert > Flash > Flash button....do it
> __
> "Tim Gallant" <tim@timgallant.org> wrote in message
> news:ctokpt$47t$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> business
the[color=darkred]
shops[color=darkred]
> proven
>
>
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-01, 6:30 pm |
| my point exactly...the fewer dipsticks the better.
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
Insert > Flash > Flash button....do it
(ahhh...vanity)
__
"Pablo" <dunno@dunno.com> wrote in message
news:ctomja$6om$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> I think anyone who wants to start a web biz needs his/her head looked into
> or sent to the Reaper :)
>
> site
>
> The other day I was contacted by two company's that wanted to be placed on
a
> site I have, they just wanted to know if I could possibly place a link, I
> looked at the sites and they were crap, I took a couple of screenshots of
> these broken sites, sent them the images and told them I cannot possibly
> link to such mess as I have a reputation. I also gave them a list of what
to
> get rid of, basically the list was the whole site. I haven't heard from
them
> since. I don't care about dipsticks such as these people because they
don't
> care about themselves.
>
> In hindsight I wish I had been more aggressive and just told them to piss
> off :)
>
> --
> Cheers Pablo
>
> _____________________
>
> Whoever said "image doesn't matter" was lying.
> http://www.dellwebsites.com
> ______________________________________
> "dan mode" <dan.mode@edom.nad.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
> ctol92$4rs$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> site
> the
at[color=darkred]
> shops
>
>
| |
|
|
> my point exactly...the fewer dipsticks the better.
You haven't yet given any explanation as to why you think every person just
launching a web design business is a "dipstick". There's no reason to assume
that. He or she may be an excellent web developer.
If you can give us some reason why you're assuming that, I could see your
point, Dan, but from everything you've said, it makes no sense at all,
sorry.
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
|
|
> I have lost a few jobs to 'my little brother knows html and will do our
> site
> for much less'. I know that these people are not educated in the web and
> what a good site really is.
So, "these people" means everybody who is just starting out offering web
design services professionally? "these people" are automatically incompetent
hackers?
We all know about the little brothers and nephews, and I have no argument
with you on that, believe me. But that's a whole different issue. Many of
those "nephews" have been at it for years and years.
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-01, 6:31 pm |
| >You haven't yet given any explanation as to why you think every person just
>launching a web design business is a "dipstick". There's no reason to
assume
>that. He or she may be an excellent web developer.
you're right...not all are dipsticks.
>If you can give us some reason why you're assuming that, I could see your
>point, Dan, but from everything you've said, it makes no sense at all,
>sorry.
"us"? is there someone else here?
it doesn't make sense? answer me this: wouldn't you like to be making more
money?
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
Insert > Flash > Flash button....do it
(ahhh...vanity)
__
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-01, 6:31 pm |
| >Many of
> those "nephews" have been at it for years and years.
sure - I have an uncle I have done work for....great looking website.
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
Insert > Flash > Flash button....do it
(ahhh...vanity)
__
"P@tty" <patty@carolinawebsolutions.com> wrote in message
news:ctooql$a2a$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
>
> So, "these people" means everybody who is just starting out offering web
> design services professionally? "these people" are automatically
incompetent
> hackers?
>
> We all know about the little brothers and nephews, and I have no argument
> with you on that, believe me. But that's a whole different issue. Many of
> those "nephews" have been at it for years and years.
>
>
> --
> Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
> Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
> Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
> --
>
>
| |
| Bassler 2005-02-01, 6:31 pm |
| I think anyone who wants to start a web biz needs his/her head looked into or
sent to the Reaper Says the web designer... I guess that is why you haven't
offered any valuable information on this issue. And yes, the biggest hazard to
the current or new professional web developer is the high school kid with
almost no overhead, plenty of time to play for the sake of it, and that exceeds
all of our capabilities because he/she is a young sponge with an interest. How
do you compete against those that have you on quality AND price?
| |
|
|
> you're right...not all are dipsticks.
Right. There's no reason whatsoever to think that anyone is a hack just
because he or she is just launching a business. There's no direct
correlation at all.
> "us"? is there someone else here?
All of the people reading, including one who has responded.
> it doesn't make sense? answer me this: wouldn't you like to be making
> more
> money?
No, not at all. Unless I literally had a monopoly. If the original poster
starts a business, I doubt it will affect mine at all.
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
|
|
=> >Many of
>
> sure - I have an uncle I have done work for....great looking website.
You missed my point completely, obviously. No one is saying that being
someone's relative makes one a good or bad web designer, Dan. :-) You
can't have thought that I meant that, right?
My point was: I agree with you that there are many incompetent people
offering web design services. We've all run into them. You mentioned a
"little brother" - some of us jokingly call them "nephews" - but they're
often a secretary or friend or whatever - someone who people trust to
provide web design, but who have little training or skill.
I agree wholeheartedly that it's a drag that these people sometimes cut into
the business of real, competent web developers.
But this has nothing to do with the fact that someone is just starting out
in business, which has been the topic for most of this part of the thread.
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
|
| >... I guess that is why you haven't
> offered any valuable information on this issue.
No, it's because Pablo is a drunk and a smartass. And those his *good*
qualities. :-)
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
|
| > ... answer me this: wouldn't you like to be making more
> money?
Excuse me - I thought that said, "Wouldn't you be making more money?" - if I
had a monopoly on the business.
Would I like to be making more money? Sure. But trying to discourage someone
from entering the business isn't an effective way to make more money.
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
| darrel 2005-02-01, 6:32 pm |
| > You haven't yet given any explanation as to why you think every person
just
> launching a web design business is a "dipstick".
Dan is good at talking in circles. ;o)
-Darrel
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-01, 6:32 pm |
| >I agree wholeheartedly that it's a drag that these people sometimes cut
into
>the business of real, competent web developers.
the thing is, most of these 'nephews' don't know what they are doing...and
people think that they are getting a deal by having the nephew do
them.......you get what you paid for...
> But this has nothing to do with the fact that someone is just starting out
> in business, which has been the topic for most of this part of the thread.
still think it is a bad idea...greedy ol' d-mode :)
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
Insert > Flash > Flash button....do it
(ahhh...vanity)
__
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-01, 6:32 pm |
| damn - you figured it out!
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
Insert > Flash > Flash button....do it
(ahhh...vanity)
__
"darrel" <notreal@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ctor47$d9o$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> just
>
> Dan is good at talking in circles. ;o)
>
> -Darrel
>
>
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-01, 6:32 pm |
| I agree with you there Patty.....but, is a smartass better than a dumbass?
(me being the latter)
:)
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
Insert > Flash > Flash button....do it
(ahhh...vanity)
__
"P@tty" <patty@carolinawebsolutions.com> wrote in message
news:ctoqvo$d4u$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
> No, it's because Pablo is a drunk and a smartass. And those his *good*
> qualities. :-)
>
>
> --
> Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
> Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
> Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
> --
>
>
| |
|
|
> into
>
> the thing is, most of these 'nephews' don't know what they are doing...and
> people think that they are getting a deal by having the nephew do
> them.......you get what you paid for...
>
>
> still think it is a bad idea...greedy ol' d-mode :)
Well, Dan.. you're obviously a nice guy with a good sense of humor, but as
far as having any kind of logical discussion, I give up. :-) You sure do
talk in circles. You're kind of like the guy on that other thread who just
wants to disable right-clicking, but can't for the life of him give any
reasonable explanation as to why.
What the hell - you can keep telling web designers not to go into business,
and I'll keep spending 24 hours a day encouraging them to do just that. :-D
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
|
|
"dan mode" <dan.mode@edom.nad.com> wrote in message
news:ctorc1$dne$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>I agree with you there Patty.....but, is a smartass better than a dumbass?
>
> (me being the latter)
> :)
Well, I'd say a smartass might be more entertaining. But I don't think
you're a dumbass - just very illogical. :-D
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-01, 6:33 pm |
|
why do you encourage them? how does that benefit you?
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
Insert > Flash > Flash button....do it
(ahhh...vanity)
__
"P@tty" <patty@carolinawebsolutions.com> wrote in message
news:ctotv4$hal$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
doing...and[color=darkred]
>
> Well, Dan.. you're obviously a nice guy with a good sense of humor, but as
> far as having any kind of logical discussion, I give up. :-) You sure do
> talk in circles. You're kind of like the guy on that other thread who just
> wants to disable right-clicking, but can't for the life of him give any
> reasonable explanation as to why.
>
> What the hell - you can keep telling web designers not to go into
business,
> and I'll keep spending 24 hours a day encouraging them to do just that.
:-D
>
>
> --
> Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
> Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
> Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
> --
>
>
| |
| Pablo 2005-02-01, 11:15 pm |
| But trying to discourage someone
from entering the business isn't an effective way to make more money.
I could create a banner :)
--
Cheers Pablo
_____________________
Whoever said "image doesn't matter" was lying.
http://www.dellwebsites.com
______________________________________
"P@tty" <patty@carolinawebsolutions.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
ctor35$d96$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
> Excuse me - I thought that said, "Wouldn't you be making more money?" - if
I
> had a monopoly on the business.
>
> Would I like to be making more money? Sure. But trying to discourage
someone
> from entering the business isn't an effective way to make more money.
>
>
> --
> Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
> Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
> Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
> --
>
>
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-01, 11:15 pm |
| >get back to me
> with the name of a nephew who creates church adds like this
Dick Cheney
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
Insert > Flash > Flash button....do it
(ahhh...vanity)
__
"Pablo" <dunno@dunno.com> wrote in message
news:ctp0rf$l3t$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> And yes, the biggest hazard to
> the current or new professional web developer is the high school kid with
> almost no overhead, plenty of time to play for the sake of it, and that
> exceeds
> all of our capabilities because he/she is a young sponge with an interest.
> How
> do you compete against those that have you on quality AND price?
>
>
> I send them to the reaper, read my post again please and then get back to
me
> with the name of a nephew who creates church adds like this
>
> http://www.paul.uk101.com/drivers-s...les/church.html
>
> offered any valuable information on this issue.
>
> Read it again and then again.
>
> If you still don't get it I'll send you some sand to chew.
>
> Market research is pretty pointless globally in this game if you are a
> beginner, you need to open the front door not the sky. Get with it and
> create a hub, get word around, create church sites with a difference etc.
> contact local companies, create brochures grab hold of the local chamber
of
> commerce, contact the local newspaper and tell them one of the largest
> companies in the world want to sue you because you were born. There is
more
> to it than that, but as I pointed out in my post, I don't give a hoot
about
> the dipstick that gets nephew to create a site for his company, I don't
give
> a hoot whether the showstoppers are happy or not with their site, the
reason
> I don't give a hoot is because these people don't give a hoot and it is
> obviously pointless trying to explain to dipsticks that there site sucks,
> but on the other hand if a dipstick asks me to link to a shite site I will
> send word that they are dipsticks.
>
> I hope you understand now.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Cheers Pablo
>
> _____________________
>
> Whoever said "image doesn't matter" was lying.
> http://www.dellwebsites.com
> ______________________________________
> "Bassler" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
> ctoqbp$c81$1@forums.macromedia.com...
into[color=darkred]
> or
> haven't
> hazard to
with[color=darkred]
> exceeds
interest.[color=darkred]
> How
>
>
| |
| Pablo 2005-02-01, 11:15 pm |
| And yes, the biggest hazard to
the current or new professional web developer is the high school kid with
almost no overhead, plenty of time to play for the sake of it, and that
exceeds
all of our capabilities because he/she is a young sponge with an interest.
How
do you compete against those that have you on quality AND price?
I send them to the reaper, read my post again please and then get back to me
with the name of a nephew who creates church adds like this
http://www.paul.uk101.com/drivers-s...les/church.html
offered any valuable information on this issue.
Read it again and then again.
If you still don't get it I'll send you some sand to chew.
Market research is pretty pointless globally in this game if you are a
beginner, you need to open the front door not the sky. Get with it and
create a hub, get word around, create church sites with a difference etc.
contact local companies, create brochures grab hold of the local chamber of
commerce, contact the local newspaper and tell them one of the largest
companies in the world want to sue you because you were born. There is more
to it than that, but as I pointed out in my post, I don't give a hoot about
the dipstick that gets nephew to create a site for his company, I don't give
a hoot whether the showstoppers are happy or not with their site, the reason
I don't give a hoot is because these people don't give a hoot and it is
obviously pointless trying to explain to dipsticks that there site sucks,
but on the other hand if a dipstick asks me to link to a shite site I will
send word that they are dipsticks.
I hope you understand now.
--
Cheers Pablo
_____________________
Whoever said "image doesn't matter" was lying.
http://www.dellwebsites.com
______________________________________
"Bassler" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
ctoqbp$c81$1@forums.macromedia.com...[color=darkred]
> I think anyone who wants to start a web biz needs his/her head looked into
or
> sent to the Reaper Says the web designer... I guess that is why you
haven't
> offered any valuable information on this issue. And yes, the biggest
hazard to
> the current or new professional web developer is the high school kid with
> almost no overhead, plenty of time to play for the sake of it, and that
exceeds
> all of our capabilities because he/she is a young sponge with an interest.
How
> do you compete against those that have you on quality AND price?
>
| |
| Pablo 2005-02-01, 11:15 pm |
| LOL
--
Cheers Pablo
_____________________
Whoever said "image doesn't matter" was lying.
http://www.dellwebsites.com
______________________________________
"dan mode" <dan.mode@edom.nad.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
ctp0vl$l85$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
> Dick Cheney
>
> --
>
>
| |
| Winifred Day 2005-02-01, 11:15 pm |
| dan mode wrote:
> why do you encourage them? how does that benefit you?
>
Not P@tty, but I'll chime in: when more folks join the business,
especially when they do so with advice and assistance from places like
this newsgroup, more potential clients end up becoming educated about
websites.
Some have good learning experiences: the developer they chose is
competent. Some have bad experiences: the developer they chose is
incompetent.
For the ones who found competent developers: good for them. Their
business gets a boost. They "talk up" having a website - and some of
that overflow might come my way.
For those who found incompetent developers: maybe I'll get a crack at
their business when they revamp their sites.
Win
--
Win Day
Wild Rose Websites
"You dream it. We make it work."
-----------------------------------------------
Building affordable websites : http://www.wildrosewebsites.com
NEW! Website Design Kits : http://www.wildrosewebsites.com/services/kits.asp
-----------------------------------------------
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-01, 11:15 pm |
| makes sense since Al Gore was the one that created the web
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
Insert > Flash > Flash button....do it
(ahhh...vanity)
__
"Pablo" <dunno@dunno.com> wrote in message
news:ctp1po$meg$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> LOL
>
> --
> Cheers Pablo
>
> _____________________
>
> Whoever said "image doesn't matter" was lying.
> http://www.dellwebsites.com
> ______________________________________
> "dan mode" <dan.mode@edom.nad.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
> ctp0vl$l85$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
>
>
| |
| P@tty 2005-02-01, 11:17 pm |
|
> why do you encourage them? how does that benefit you?
Well, I do earn money from the docs I sell commercially to web designers.
But I also just enjoy sharing my experience and helping out. In "the
Dreamweaver community" there seemed to be plenty of people answering all the
questions about technical stuff, but a lack of knowledge about business
stuff, which I've learned the hard way over the past six or seven years.
(Still learning, obviously!)
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-01, 11:17 pm |
| not sure I agree with you 100% Win.
I see it more like in the '80s-'90s when all these sideshow glam rock bands
came on the scene (Warrant, Slaughter, Skid Row) it killed the rest of them
and utterly proved their demise. Could this happen to the web?
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
Insert > Flash > Flash button....do it
(ahhh...vanity)
__
"Winifred Day" <winday@NOSPAMwildrosewebsites.com> wrote in message
news:ctp1al$log$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> dan mode wrote:
>
> Not P@tty, but I'll chime in: when more folks join the business,
> especially when they do so with advice and assistance from places like
> this newsgroup, more potential clients end up becoming educated about
> websites.
>
> Some have good learning experiences: the developer they chose is
> competent. Some have bad experiences: the developer they chose is
> incompetent.
>
> For the ones who found competent developers: good for them. Their
> business gets a boost. They "talk up" having a website - and some of
> that overflow might come my way.
>
> For those who found incompetent developers: maybe I'll get a crack at
> their business when they revamp their sites.
>
> Win
> --
> Win Day
> Wild Rose Websites
> "You dream it. We make it work."
> -----------------------------------------------
> Building affordable websites : http://www.wildrosewebsites.com
> NEW! Website Design Kits :
http://www.wildrosewebsites.com/services/kits.asp
> -----------------------------------------------
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-01, 11:17 pm |
| > Well, I do earn money from the docs I sell commercially to web designers.
ahhh...well that explains everything....as soon as I get some templates up
I'll be all for new web geeks but until them I hate 'em! *grrrr*
:)
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
Insert > Flash > Flash button....do it
(ahhh...vanity)
__
"P@tty" <patty@carolinawebsolutions.com> wrote in message
news:ctp232$mnp$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
>
> Well, I do earn money from the docs I sell commercially to web designers.
> But I also just enjoy sharing my experience and helping out. In "the
> Dreamweaver community" there seemed to be plenty of people answering all
the
> questions about technical stuff, but a lack of knowledge about business
> stuff, which I've learned the hard way over the past six or seven years.
> (Still learning, obviously!)
>
>
> --
> Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
> Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
> Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
> --
>
>
| |
|
| > ahhh...well that explains everything....as soon as I get some templates up
> I'll be all for new web geeks but until them I hate 'em! *grrrr*
I liked them before I was doing that, though. And I like talking about that
stuff, because I've worked hard to figure it out.. also, as I mentioned, I
learn a lot from other people having these biz-related dialogs. Have you
been to our web business newsgroup? :-) http://www.webdevbiz.com/forum.cfm
Cheers,
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
|
| Would I be welcome? Is there any beer? :)
--
Cheers Pablo
_____________________
Whoever said "image doesn't matter" was lying.
http://www.dellwebsites.com
______________________________________
"P@tty" <patty@carolinawebsolutions.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
ctpm54$l2q$1@forums.macromedia.com...
up[color=darkred]
>
> I liked them before I was doing that, though. And I like talking about
that
> stuff, because I've worked hard to figure it out.. also, as I mentioned, I
> learn a lot from other people having these biz-related dialogs. Have you
> been to our web business newsgroup? :-)
http://www.webdevbiz.com/forum.cfm
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> --
> Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
> Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
> Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
> --
>
>
| |
| Simonbullen 2005-02-02, 7:15 am |
| well, it's good to see so much discussion on my topic, however not sure how to
take new starters being dipsticks and geeks! I think the market can become
saturated with too many deisgners, but you could say that about any business
venture starting up surely, but it depends on where you work and what is
available in the area, also, every designer is different and probably has
something different to offer, now I knwo i'm not the best by far, but i'm
learning and if I could make a business from it then great, we'll see hey,
thanks for the posts,
| |
| Osgood 2005-02-02, 7:18 am |
|
In general, and it's a sweeping statement, web design has to be one of
the least skilled careers you can ever wish to get into involved in.
Because its not a matter of life or death, its uncontrolled, which
leaves it open to abuse by amateurs, who drive the market price down.
Driving the market price down does nothing to help those that are
skilled. Some would say it gives the consumer more choices. I would say
a lot more bad choices, than good. Just test a number of sites out
designed by so called 'professional' outfits offering these 'choices'.
You only have to enlarge the text to 120-150% and they explode or test
them in a Mac browser and they are all over the place. That's is why
they can produce cheap sites, because they are cutting corners and
cheating the customer. The only way you can compete on price is to offer
a comparable bad service.
We all know most clients, apart from blue chip companies, who have money
to burn, buy on price. Trying to inform a client that their site will
validate and you charge more money because you are more skilled at
writing code than the majority of web designers who don't write good
code, but their sites appear to look ok when viewed in a browser, is
quite frankly a complete waste of time. In most cases good code writing
is virtually worthless in terms of the time you spend learning how to do
it and the financial returns.
You may ask why you charge more money, or would want to charge more
money, to get your code to validate. Because like anything else you have
spent longer learning and understanding how html actually works. Its
quite feasable that you should be financially rewarded for this, much
like a qualified surgeon is rewarded for knowing which bits to remove
and which bits not to remove. The difference is one is a matter of life
and death, the other is not.
I think whether you are successful in this business or any other
business depends upon ones own expectations of what is acceptable to
yourself and what is not. I see people who claim to be making a living
out of webdesign but as a client the sites they produce would largely be
unacceptable to me.
THE KEY is finding a level where you are happiest operating and then
finding the clients to match your abilities. If you can marry the two
together, which IS the most difficult aspect of any business, I'm sure
money can be made.
dan mode wrote:
>
>
> I have lost a few jobs to 'my little brother knows html and will do our site
> for much less'. I know that these people are not educated in the web and
> what a good site really is. And yes, they get what they paid for - a
> showstoppers.
>
>
>
>
> true - and my advice is not to start, just like smoking....
>
>
>
>
> yes, and the less to shop thru the better
>
> :)
>
>
| |
| Osgood 2005-02-02, 7:18 am |
| P@tty wrote:
>
>
> Right. There's no reason whatsoever to think that anyone is a hack just
> because he or she is just launching a business. There's no direct
> correlation at all.
Unfortunately hacks outweigh professionals by 10-1 in this business,
simply because its an easy start up.
Its no longer about how skilled you are at actually producing the work.
As you know it's much more about being able to sell your services, good
or bad.
You can be the most talented web designer on the earth but if you cant
get out there and sell youre dead in the water. Vice-versa, you can be
the worlds worst web designer but if you are 'connected' you'll swim.
(for a bit and then move on to something else once it runs out of steam)
| |
|
| Like anything, that's biz it's as simple as that.
NUKE ALL NEWBIES :)
--
Cheers Pablo
_____________________
Whoever said "image doesn't matter" was lying.
http://www.dellwebsites.com
______________________________________
"Osgood" <notavailable@atthisaddress.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
ctq6g0$dga$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> P@tty wrote:
>
>
> Unfortunately hacks outweigh professionals by 10-1 in this business,
> simply because its an easy start up.
>
> Its no longer about how skilled you are at actually producing the work.
> As you know it's much more about being able to sell your services, good
> or bad.
>
> You can be the most talented web designer on the earth but if you cant
> get out there and sell youre dead in the water. Vice-versa, you can be
> the worlds worst web designer but if you are 'connected' you'll swim.
> (for a bit and then move on to something else once it runs out of steam)
>
>
| |
| Osgood 2005-02-02, 7:20 am |
| Pablo wrote:
> NUKE ALL NEWBIES :)
I wouldnt go as far as to tar everyone with the same brush. Those that
want to take time to learn the 'trade' properly are welcome. Those that
just want, or think there is a fast but to be made, are those that are
unwelcome.
| |
|
|
"Pablo" <dunno@dunno.com> wrote in message
news:ctq3m8$7p9$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Would I be welcome? Is there any beer? :)
Of course. There might be some beer - bring some just to be sure. =)
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
|
|
>
> I wouldnt go as far as to tar everyone with the same brush. Those that
> want to take time to learn the 'trade' properly are welcome. Those that
> just want, or think there is a fast buck to be made, are those that are
> unwelcome.
This was exactly what I just spent fifteen posts on this thread trying to
establish with Dan Mode. :-) I'd repeat it again in slightly different
words, but, nah. =)
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
|
| I'll come a long with a wagon full and everyone can pretend there biz is
going great guns and we can all celebrate :)
--
Cheers Pablo
_____________________
Whoever said "image doesn't matter" was lying.
http://www.dellwebsites.com
______________________________________
"P@tty" <patty@carolinawebsolutions.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
ctqnpg$ag0$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
> "Pablo" <dunno@dunno.com> wrote in message
> news:ctq3m8$7p9$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
> Of course. There might be some beer - bring some just to be sure. =)
>
>
> --
> Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
> Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
> Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
> --
>
>
| |
|
| Simonbullen wrote:
> well, it's good to see so much discussion on my topic, however not
> sure how to take new starters being dipsticks and geeks! I think the
> market can become saturated with too many deisgners, but you could
> say that about any business venture starting up surely, but it
> depends on where you work and what is available in the area, also,
> every designer is different and probably has something different to
> offer, now I knwo i'm not the best by far, but i'm learning and if I
> could make a business from it then great, we'll see hey, thanks for
> the posts,
I think the best thing to take out of this (or any discussion) is that
opinions are like a***holes - everyones got one, and they all stink except
your own!
If you've avoided the insults, and still feel that you want to give it a go,
you'll do well... if you've been scared off, perhaps it wasn't the career
for you after all!
(this, of course, is an opinion. But my opinion is perfect, and never wrong!
:-p )
look forward to seeing you around....
Regards,
Pete.
--
Peter Connolly
http://www.acutecomputing.co.uk
Derby
UK
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-02, 6:29 pm |
| I doubt I'd be welcome....
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
(ahhh...vanity)
Alt+F+X
__
"Pablo" <dunno@dunno.com> wrote in message
news:ctq3m8$7p9$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Would I be welcome? Is there any beer? :)
>
> --
> Cheers Pablo
>
> _____________________
>
> Whoever said "image doesn't matter" was lying.
> http://www.dellwebsites.com
> ______________________________________
> "P@tty" <patty@carolinawebsolutions.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
> ctpm54$l2q$1@forums.macromedia.com...
templates[color=darkred]
> up
> that
I[color=darkred]
> http://www.webdevbiz.com/forum.cfm
>
>
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-02, 6:29 pm |
| you did establish your point very well...good job :)
it's just that I disagree. It doesn't change the fact that I believe that
you are a wonderful person.
:)
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
(ahhh...vanity)
Alt+F+X
__
"P@tty" <patty@carolinawebsolutions.com> wrote in message
news:ctqnku$a69$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
>
> This was exactly what I just spent fifteen posts on this thread trying to
> establish with Dan Mode. :-) I'd repeat it again in slightly different
> words, but, nah. =)
>
>
> --
> Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
> Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
> Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
> --
>
>
| |
|
|
> you did establish your point very well...good job :)
> it's just that I disagree. It doesn't change the fact that I believe that
> you are a wonderful person.
>
> :)
<sigh> But you should be able to be convinced by a coherent argument, or
else provide a coherent argument in response.. no matter. I think you're a
superb human being as well. :-D
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
|
|
> I'll come a long with a wagon full and everyone can pretend there biz is
> going great guns and we can all celebrate :)
I do that a lot - sounds good. :-D
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
|
|
"dan mode" <dan.mode@edom.nad.com> wrote in message
news:ctqt0v$j10$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>I doubt I'd be welcome....
Ok, Dan Layout Mode, it's my newsgroup and I personally invited you - how
much more welcome do you need to be? :-)
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-02, 6:29 pm |
| hahaha - just joking Patty....I pulled it up. However I don't see much
discussion on web biz other than CC & such.
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
(ahhh...vanity)
Alt+F+X
__
"P@tty" <patty@carolinawebsolutions.com> wrote in message
news:ctr0oc$p48$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
> "dan mode" <dan.mode@edom.nad.com> wrote in message
> news:ctqt0v$j10$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
> Ok, Dan Layout Mode, it's my newsgroup and I personally invited you - how
> much more welcome do you need to be? :-)
>
>
> --
> Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
> Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
> Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
> --
>
>
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-02, 6:29 pm |
| my argument is this: the fewer the new geeks, the better...IMO, it means
more biz for existing geeks.
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
(ahhh...vanity)
Alt+F+X
__
"P@tty" <patty@carolinawebsolutions.com> wrote in message
news:ctr0lk$p0u$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
that[color=darkred]
>
> <sigh> But you should be able to be convinced by a coherent argument, or
> else provide a coherent argument in response.. no matter. I think you're a
> superb human being as well. :-D
>
>
> --
> Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
> Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
> Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
> --
>
>
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-02, 6:29 pm |
| btw - I've never used 'layout mode'.
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
(ahhh...vanity)
Alt+F+X
__
"P@tty" <patty@carolinawebsolutions.com> wrote in message
news:ctr0oc$p48$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
> "dan mode" <dan.mode@edom.nad.com> wrote in message
> news:ctqt0v$j10$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
> Ok, Dan Layout Mode, it's my newsgroup and I personally invited you - how
> much more welcome do you need to be? :-)
>
>
> --
> Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
> Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
> Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
> --
>
>
| |
|
|
> my argument is this: the fewer the new geeks, the better...IMO, it means
> more biz for existing geeks.
Good! As I said about five posts ago:
"Dan. What you're saying is that (1) you tell people not to start a web
design business, the real reason being you don't want their competition.
But you mention this other vague reason, that somehow it's better for the
consumer for there not to be much competition, which is, frankly, nonsense.
:-) If I were you, I'd skip the second reason and just be honest about the
first. :-D "
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
|
|
"dan mode" <dan.mode@edom.nad.com> wrote in message
news:ctr0sn$pa6$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> hahaha - just joking Patty....I pulled it up. However I don't see much
> discussion on web biz other than CC & such.
I see lots, but feel free to post the questions that you'd really like to
see discussion on. :-)
--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-02, 6:31 pm |
| it is better for the consumer, IMO for 2 reasons:
1. fewer geeks to sift thru, in finding a good designer
2. more experienced geeks = better product
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
(ahhh...vanity)
Alt+F+X
__
"P@tty" <patty@carolinawebsolutions.com> wrote in message
news:ctr663$4i1$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
>
> Good! As I said about five posts ago:
>
> "Dan. What you're saying is that (1) you tell people not to start a web
> design business, the real reason being you don't want their competition.
>
> But you mention this other vague reason, that somehow it's better for the
> consumer for there not to be much competition, which is, frankly,
nonsense.
> :-) If I were you, I'd skip the second reason and just be honest about
the
> first. :-D "
>
>
> --
> Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
> Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
> Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
> --
>
>
| |
| Gary White 2005-02-02, 6:31 pm |
| dan mode wrote:
>it is better for the consumer, IMO for 2 reasons:
>
>1. fewer geeks to sift thru, in finding a good designer
>2. more experienced geeks = better product
I think you've spent too much time listening to Microsoft's lawyers. ;-)
Gary
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-02, 6:32 pm |
| so you disagree with me Gary? you welcome more competition? what if they
are stealing yor business? you welcome a product that will produce more
showstopper sites?
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
(ahhh...vanity)
Alt+F+X
__
"Gary White" <reply@newsgroup.please> wrote in message
news:ql92019bmkfh32f75b5h108mqdoctnviv0@4ax.com...
> dan mode wrote:
>
>
>
> I think you've spent too much time listening to Microsoft's lawyers. ;-)
>
>
> Gary
| |
|
| >>>you welcome a product that will produce more
showstopper sites?
Yes as long as they are as bad as that, at least they make us laugh, in all
fairness the showstopper is that bad it is fabulous :)
--
Cheers Pablo
_____________________
Whoever said "image doesn't matter" was lying.
http://www.dellwebsites.com
______________________________________
"dan mode" <dan.mode@edom.nad.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
ctr957$9c0$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> so you disagree with me Gary? you welcome more competition? what if they
> are stealing yor business? you welcome a product that will produce more
> showstopper sites?
>
>
> --
>
> Dan
> blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
> *NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
> (ahhh...vanity)
> Alt+F+X
> __
> "Gary White" <reply@newsgroup.please> wrote in message
> news:ql92019bmkfh32f75b5h108mqdoctnviv0@4ax.com...
>
>
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-02, 6:32 pm |
| well if they were all that bad then would we still laugh?
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
(ahhh...vanity)
Alt+F+X
__
"Pablo" <dunno@dunno.com> wrote in message
news:ctr9s3$adv$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> showstopper sites?
>
>
> Yes as long as they are as bad as that, at least they make us laugh, in
all
> fairness the showstopper is that bad it is fabulous :)
>
> --
> Cheers Pablo
>
> _____________________
>
> Whoever said "image doesn't matter" was lying.
> http://www.dellwebsites.com
> ______________________________________
> "dan mode" <dan.mode@edom.nad.com> a écrit dans le message de news:
> ctr957$9c0$1@forums.macromedia.com...
they[color=darkred]
;-)[color=darkred]
>
>
| |
| Gary White 2005-02-02, 11:17 pm |
| dan mode wrote:
>so you disagree with me Gary? you welcome more competition? what if they
>are stealing yor business? you welcome a product that will produce more
>showstopper sites?
I don't necessarily disagree with you. My post was a subtle attempt at
levity. However, you come close to saying what you denied earlier.
Before, you said you weren't worried about competition. You come very
close to saying that you do, now. Those who produce Showstopper quality
sites will cull themselves from the herd. I wouldn't worry about them.
The ones you need be concerned about are the ones who produce GOOD
sites. I always worry about competition, although "worry" is probably
not the best term to use. I don't see being concerned about competition
as a flaw, just good business sense.
Gary
| |
| dan mode 2005-02-02, 11:17 pm |
| >However, you come close to saying what you denied earlier.
> Before, you said you weren't worried about competition.
I don't worry about the competition in the sense that they are better
designers than I am.
I worry that they are offering a lower price and the client is not educated
enough to see that they will be getting a crap site.
--
Dan
blah blah regla de las firmas de la longitud
*NEW* check me out http://d-mode.ww.com
(ahhh...vanity)
Alt+F+X
__
"Gary White" <reply@newsgroup.please> wrote in message
news:clq201drjrn5qtudqoc6hq97dp13ha2s2o@4ax.com...
> dan mode wrote:
>
they[color=darkred]
>
>
> I don't necessarily disagree with you. My post was a subtle attempt at
> levity. However, you come close to saying what you denied earlier.
> Before, you said you weren't worried about competition. You come very
> close to saying that you do, now. Those who produce Showstopper quality
> sites will cull themselves from the herd. I wouldn't worry about them.
> The ones you need be concerned about are the ones who produce GOOD
> sites. I always worry about competition, although "worry" is probably
> not the best term to use. I don't see being concerned about competition
> as a flaw, just good business sense.
>
>
> Gary
| |
| Osgood 2005-02-03, 4:22 am |
| P@tty wrote:
> But you mention this other vague reason, that somehow it's better for the
> consumer for there not to be much competition,
The right competition, yes. The wrong, no.
Unfortunately there is more wrong than right and the consumer does not
know right from wrong because its largley undetectable in this industry.
The majority of web designers write invalid code, which works.
Effectively they are supplying sub-standards goods without the client
even knowing.
You can't compete with companies that supply sub-standard goods and yet
work, or appear to work, exactly the same as goods which meet standards.
The only thing you can do is compromise your own standards, which seems
wrong to me, or put in extra unpaid hours on the job to meet your
standards.
Meeting standards takes time and money, which should be recognised and
reflected in financial reward. The reason why most web designers don't
care about meeting coding standards is because they know its of no
benefit to them financially whatsoever. Who the hell is going to spend
time learning to do something correctly when its of absolutely no value
in financial terms. The industry as a whole is a complete an utter mess.
I don't know what web design students, who enrol on courses are taught
these days to be honest but it would be an interesting insight. It seems
to me that everything and anything is acceptable so long as it can make
money, regardless of whether its being correctly taught or not.
The only factor for clients is if they can see it correctly in the
browser they are using then it's acceptable, period. I bet that's the
first thing most 'hack' companies ask. 'What browser do you use'. A good
web design company won't even enquiry about that because they know their
product will work in all major browsers.
Theres no answer, the web will just go on breeding more an more rubbish.
Its become a dumping ground for people who have failed in other
businesses.
| |
| Osgood 2005-02-09, 11:17 pm |
| P@tty wrote:
> But you mention this other vague reason, that somehow it's better for the
> consumer for there not to be much competition,
The right competition, yes. The wrong, no.
Unfortunately there is more wrong than right and the consumer does not
know right from wrong because its largley undetectable in this industry.
The majority of web designers write invalid code, which works.
Effectively they are supplying sub-standards goods without the client
even knowing.
You can't compete with companies that supply sub-standard goods and yet
work, or appear to work, exactly the same as goods which meet standards.
The only thing you can do is compromise your own standards, which seems
wrong to me, or put in extra unpaid hours on the job to meet your
standards.
Meeting standards takes time and money, which should be recognised and
reflected in financial reward. The reason why most web designers don't
care about meeting coding standards is because they know its of no
benefit to them financially whatsoever. Who the hell is going to spend
time learning to do something correctly when its of absolutely no value
in financial terms. The industry as a whole is a complete an utter mess.
I don't know what web design students, who enrol on courses are taught
these days to be honest but it would be an interesting insight. It seems
to me that everything and anything is acceptable so long as it can make
money, regardless of whether its being correctly taught or not.
The only factor for clients is if they can see it correctly in the
browser they are using then it's acceptable, period. I bet that's the
first thing most 'hack' companies ask. 'What browser do you use'. A good
web design company won't even enquiry about that because they know their
product will work in all major browsers.
Theres no answer, the web will just go on breeding more an more rubbish.
Its become a dumping ground for people who have failed in other
businesses.
| |
|
| "Osgood" wrote in message news:ctsjb0$54n$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
> The majority of web designers write invalid code, which works. Effectively
> they are supplying sub-standards goods without the client even knowing.
Is this not the case in every business, and every industry, all around the
world? Every major supermarket has their own no-name brand of product that
is a reasonable facsimile of the brand name, at a fraction of the price.
The supermarket-brand ketchup will probably be a dumbed-down Heinz. The
consumer knows this. Those who couldn't afford to buy as much ketchup as
they wanted now have an alternative. Those who can afford the Heinz will
continue to buy the Heinz.
I've been in the business professionally since 1997, and I can tell you
that many designers charge too much for things the client simply does not
need. What does a guy who charges $5,000 as a base price for a bare-bones
website say to a client who needs a single page with contact info and
nothing else, with only $500 to spend? Most of the time, these guys would be
out of luck, and have to pay for more than they need just to have a presence
online.
Cheaper-priced competition for cheaper-designed products is a reality in
every aspect of our lives, and not limited to websites. And they continue to
exist because there is a genuine need for them. People who buy them aren't
all idiots. They just don't see why they ought to be buying a Jaguar when a
Civic will do.
It's all perspective. A gourmet chef would never sully himself or his name
making you a big mac. But what if you only need -- and can only afford -- a
big mac? Why should your only option be the filet mignon or starve to death?
Some of these people don't care that the code is invalid if it works. Some
designers will try to impose that care on them, as a car salesman would
impose on you the need for the model that is just one level up from the one
you're looking at.
Some would say the "quality" web designers are every bit as responsible for
business decline as the cheap ones. Back in 1997, before "competition" set
in, designers were quoting $45,000 as a base price for your average website.
I shit you not. $45,000. So you understand that they're not happy they had
to lower their demands to $5,000 when more and more people started web
designing... and they're be even less happy to lower their prices to $500.
| |
| dan mode 2005-03-07, 6:32 pm |
| I feel sorry for the blokes at showstoppers that paid 45k. But that said,
the bloke that got that check it is a genius...
--
Dan
blah blah lengthy signatures rule
*BLOG* my blog http://www.smithfamilynewsletter.org/blog/newsMain.html
(yes, that is flash folks)
Alt+F+X
__
"Jay" <nospam@please.com> wrote in message
news:d0ia2c$5b7$2@forums.macromedia.com...
> "Osgood" wrote in message news:ctsjb0$54n$1@forums.macromedia.com...
Effectively[color=darkred]
>
> Is this not the case in every business, and every industry, all around the
> world? Every major supermarket has their own no-name brand of product that
> is a reasonable facsimile of the brand name, at a fraction of the price.
>
> The supermarket-brand ketchup will probably be a dumbed-down Heinz. The
> consumer knows this. Those who couldn't afford to buy as much ketchup as
> they wanted now have an alternative. Those who can afford the Heinz will
> continue to buy the Heinz.
>
> I've been in the business professionally since 1997, and I can tell you
> that many designers charge too much for things the client simply does not
> need. What does a guy who charges $5,000 as a base price for a bare-bones
> website say to a client w | | |