Dreamweaver - Order of Display

Author

Order of Display - Uploaded Site

whitbycolin

2005-12-28, 6:21 pm

Hello and happy Xmas to all

I wondered if you could help me with a website I have built and uploaded, the
problem is that when I go to the website the background is strangely delayed.
The text appears straight away but with the background coming a few seconds
later it looks odd. It is quite possibly a simple mistake but it is driving me
mad. This is the first time I built a site myself from the ground up and I
would welcome your advice. The website cam be found at
http://www.williamriley.co.uk

Thanks

Colin:o

Ian

2005-12-28, 6:21 pm

Hi

No doubt someone will explain in a clearer way but your page is made up of
tables and of course those tables have a variable content.

Tables require time to download and have to be completely downloaded before
being displayed so a small table say 2 x 2 with text will download and be
displayed quickly whereas a 4*4 table with flash will take longer, hence
your page will appear piecemeal but only the first time it is viewed.
Normally a copy is then stored localy and will display faster.

Your solution is perhaps not to use tables but CSS

Cheers Ian -from weston-s-mare with no snow!

"whitbycolin" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:dotuc2$g6a$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Hello and happy Xmas to all
>
> I wondered if you could help me with a website I have built and uploaded,
> the
> problem is that when I go to the website the background is strangely
> delayed.
> The text appears straight away but with the background coming a few
> seconds
> later it looks odd. It is quite possibly a simple mistake but it is
> driving me
> mad. This is the first time I built a site myself from the ground up and I
> would welcome your advice. The website cam be found at
> http://www.williamriley.co.uk
>
> Thanks
>
> Colin:o
>

Ian

2005-12-28, 6:21 pm

Oh!

Almost forgot when I view the site it's all to the left side try putting
everything inside one table and centre that main table

Ian
"whitbycolin" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:dotuc2$g6a$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Hello and happy Xmas to all
>
> I wondered if you could help me with a website I have built and uploaded,
> the
> problem is that when I go to the website the background is strangely
> delayed.
> The text appears straight away but with the background coming a few
> seconds
> later it looks odd. It is quite possibly a simple mistake but it is
> driving me
> mad. This is the first time I built a site myself from the ground up and I
> would welcome your advice. The website cam be found at
> http://www.williamriley.co.uk
>
> Thanks
>
> Colin:o
>

Murray *TMM*

2005-12-28, 6:21 pm

> Tables require time to download and have to be completely downloaded
> before being displayed

This is mostly misinformation. Tables require no more time to download than
do other markup. What *may* take time is the rendering of complex tables,
i.e., those that contain many col- and rowspans (merged and split cells).
The rest of your analogy is a bit off-kilter too.

> a small table say 2 x 2 with text will download and be displayed quickly
> whereas a 4*4 table with flash will take longer

Flash is generally more bandwidth intensive than plain text. If you want to
make a comparison, compare the rendering time of a 2x2 table with text to a
4x4 table with the same text - my guess is you wouldn't be able to measure
the difference.

--
Murray --- ICQ 71997575
Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver
(If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
==================
http://www.dreamweavermx-templates.com - Template Triage!
http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/ - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
==================

"Ian" <zen15006@zen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dou67n$phk$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Hi
>
> No doubt someone will explain in a clearer way but your page is made up of
> tables and of course those tables have a variable content.
>
> Tables require time to download and have to be completely downloaded
> before being displayed so a small table say 2 x 2 with text will download
> and be displayed quickly whereas a 4*4 table with flash will take longer,
> hence your page will appear piecemeal but only the first time it is
> viewed. Normally a copy is then stored localy and will display faster.
>
> Your solution is perhaps not to use tables but CSS
>
> Cheers Ian -from weston-s-mare with no snow!
>
>
> "whitbycolin" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
> news:dotuc2$g6a$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
>

Ian

2005-12-28, 6:21 pm

Hi Murray

Ok Point taken I bow to your greater knowledge I just quoted from a css
manaul.

Are they wrong to say:-

"Web browsers are deliberately designed to ensure that each table and it's
contents download as a single entity. None of the material in a table will
be displayed until all the contents of that table are downloiad to the
client machine, processed and available for display."

Ok agreed simpler tables will be instantaneous but the manual goes on to say
"the sheer volume of code needed to create todays web pages with nested
tables can add to load time. Table based layouts almost certainly account
for more user concern over page load times than any other factor"

I'm confused again- Oh! I forgot belated Xmas greetings

cheers

Ian

Murray *TMM*" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message
news:dou6v6$qej$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
> This is mostly misinformation. Tables require no more time to download
> than do other markup. What *may* take time is the rendering of complex
> tables, i.e., those that contain many col- and rowspans (merged and split
> cells). The rest of your analogy is a bit off-kilter too.
>
>
> Flash is generally more bandwidth intensive than plain text. If you want
> to make a comparison, compare the rendering time of a 2x2 table with text
> to a 4x4 table with the same text - my guess is you wouldn't be able to
> measure the difference.
>
> --
> Murray --- ICQ 71997575
> Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver
> (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
> ==================
> http://www.dreamweavermx-templates.com - Template Triage!
> http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
> http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
> http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/ - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
> ==================
>
>
> "Ian" <zen15006@zen.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:dou67n$phk$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
>

Murray *TMM*

2005-12-28, 6:21 pm

> Are they wrong to say:-
>
> "Web browsers are deliberately designed to ensure that each table and it's
> contents download as a single entity. None of the material in a table will
> be displayed until all the contents of that table are downloiad to the
> client machine, processed and available for display."

Yes, generally, at least as I understand it. A table can render as soon as
the tag is parsed up to the point where merged/split cells are encountered
at which point the rest of the table must be parsed before it can be
rendered. It is the merging and splitting that slows things down. And
remember, the whole page has been fetched by the time this starts, so it's
not like the browser is waiting for the server to upload information to it.
This is all happening at local browser speeds....

> "the sheer volume of code needed to create todays web pages with nested
> tables can add to load time. Table based layouts almost certainly account
> for more user concern over page load times than any other factor"

This is true. But they oversimplify in an attempt to build the case against
tables.

Which reference is this?

> Oh! I forgot belated Xmas greetings

Thanks - and the same to you!

--
Murray --- ICQ 71997575
Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver
(If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
==================
http://www.dreamweavermx-templates.com - Template Triage!
http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/ - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
==================

"Ian" <zen15006@zen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dou86e$rvo$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Hi Murray
>
> Ok Point taken I bow to your greater knowledge I just quoted from a css
> manaul.
>
> Are they wrong to say:-
>
> "Web browsers are deliberately designed to ensure that each table and it's
> contents download as a single entity. None of the material in a table will
> be displayed until all the contents of that table are downloiad to the
> client machine, processed and available for display."
>
> Ok agreed simpler tables will be instantaneous but the manual goes on to
> say "the sheer volume of code needed to create todays web pages with
> nested tables can add to load time. Table based layouts almost certainly
> account for more user concern over page load times than any other factor"
>
> I'm confused again- Oh! I forgot belated Xmas greetings
>
> cheers
>
> Ian
>
>
>
> Murray *TMM*" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message
> news:dou6v6$qej$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
>

P@tty Ayers

2005-12-28, 6:21 pm

Who wrote this "CSS manual", Ian? There's a lot of inaccurate information
about the use of tables going around these days. :-)

--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--

"Ian" <zen15006@zen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:dou86e$rvo$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Hi Murray
>
> Ok Point taken I bow to your greater knowledge I just quoted from a css
> manaul.
>
> Are they wrong to say:-
>
> "Web browsers are deliberately designed to ensure that each table and it's
> contents download as a single entity. None of the material in a table will
> be displayed until all the contents of that table are downloiad to the
> client machine, processed and available for display."
>
> Ok agreed simpler tables will be instantaneous but the manual goes on to
> say "the sheer volume of code needed to create todays web pages with
> nested tables can add to load time. Table based layouts almost certainly
> account for more user concern over page load times than any other factor"
>
> I'm confused again- Oh! I forgot belated Xmas greetings
>
> cheers
>
> Ian
>
>
>
> Murray *TMM*" <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote in message
> news:dou6v6$qej$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
>

Ian

2005-12-28, 6:21 pm

Hi Patty

I was the sitepoimnt book entitled "Designing without tables using CSS"

It's in the opening blurb

No doubt you know but the web site is

http://www.gildacaneandcushions.co.uk/beta/suite2.htm

all rather confusing really

Ian

"P@tty Ayers" <patty@REMOVEcarolinawebsolutions.com> wrote in message
news:dou9hs$et$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Who wrote this "CSS manual", Ian? There's a lot of inaccurate information
> about the use of tables going around these days. :-)
>
>
> --
> Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
> Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
> Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
> --
>
>
>
>
> "Ian" <zen15006@zen.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:dou86e$rvo$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
>

Murray *TMM*

2005-12-28, 6:22 pm

I would say that this resource is of doubtful credibility.

What is the website you link?

--
Murray --- ICQ 71997575
Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver
(If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
==================
http://www.dreamweavermx-templates.com - Template Triage!
http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/ - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
==================

"Ian" <zen15006@zen.co.uk> wrote in message
news:douai1$1mb$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Hi Patty
>
> I was the sitepoimnt book entitled "Designing without tables using CSS"
>
> It's in the opening blurb
>
> No doubt you know but the web site is
>
> http://www.gildacaneandcushions.co.uk/beta/suite2.htm
>
> all rather confusing really
>
> Ian
>
>
> "P@tty Ayers" <patty@REMOVEcarolinawebsolutions.com> wrote in message
> news:dou9hs$et$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
>

darrel

2005-12-28, 6:22 pm

> "Web browsers are deliberately designed to ensure that each table and it's
> contents download as a single entity. None of the material in a table will
> be displayed until all the contents of that table are downloiad to the
> client machine, processed and available for display."

That's not worded very well and not terribly accurate.

Heavily complex and nested tables can add to the page RENDER time, but will
only minimally effect the download time. And these days, the rendering time
is less of an issue than it was 5 years ago.

I'd be looking for a new CSS book. ;0)

-Darrel

darrel

2005-12-28, 6:22 pm

> I wondered if you could help me with a website I have built and uploaded,
> the
> problem is that when I go to the website the background is strangely
> delayed.
> The text appears straight away but with the background coming a few
> seconds
> later it looks odd. It is quite possibly a simple mistake but it is
> driving me
> mad. This is the first time I built a site myself from the ground up and I
> would welcome your advice. The website cam be found at
> http://www.williamriley.co.uk

Well, you got a lot of responses, but no one really answered your question.

The issue is that this is simply how the web works. Your browser requests
the HTML page, it loads the HTML page, then requests all the assets
associated with it. Larger images will simply take longer to download than
smaller ones so smaller images will load faster.

Since the text is in the HTML, that's loaded first, before any images are
even requests.

Also, I'd suggest getting rid of the annoying javascript pop-up when I
right-click the page.

-Darrel

P@tty Ayers

2005-12-28, 6:22 pm

"darrel" <notreal@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:doueui$7c8$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
> That's not worded very well and not terribly accurate.
>
> Heavily complex and nested tables can add to the page RENDER time, but
> will only minimally effect the download time. And these days, the
> rendering time is less of an issue than it was 5 years ago.
>
> I'd be looking for a new CSS book. ;0)

And that's only heavily complex and nested tables. The careful use of tables
shouldn't be of any concern at all re. load time.

--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--

Osgood

2005-12-28, 6:22 pm

Ian wrote:

Table based layouts almost certainly account
> for more user concern over page load times than any other factor"

Thats coming from someone with a heavy biased towards pure css-design
and quite frankly is a load of crap.

The title says it all doesnt it.

I was the sitepoimnt book entitled "Designing without tables using CSS"

If they were not biased they would have said 'Complex table design, with
many nested tables, col and row spans could account for a slower
download time. They would also have said replacing tables with numerous
<divs>, as many people do, is not much better.

It's nothing to do with tables/<divs>, its more to do with how
economical you are with the mark-up.

darrel

2005-12-28, 6:22 pm

> And that's only heavily complex and nested tables. The careful use of
> tables shouldn't be of any concern at all re. load time.

Well, it can still make a difference in some browsers/machines if we're
talking about a REALLY long table...like 30 browser windows high. In those
cases, it's better to break up your table into mulitples. But, of course, a
page that long isn't probably a good idea to begin with. ;o)

-Darrel

P@tty Ayers

2005-12-28, 6:22 pm

"darrel" <notreal@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:douhv4$b4d$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
> Well, it can still make a difference in some browsers/machines if we're
> talking about a REALLY long table...like 30 browser windows high. In those
> cases, it's better to break up your table into mulitples. But, of course,
> a page that long isn't probably a good idea to begin with. ;o)

Well, duh. :-)

--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--

Michael Fesser

2005-12-28, 6:22 pm

..oO(Ian)

>Are they wrong to say:-
>
>"Web browsers are deliberately designed to ensure that each table and it's
>contents download as a single entity. None of the material in a table will
>be displayed until all the contents of that table are downloiad to the
>client machine, processed and available for display."

It depends on the browser. Older browsers have to download the entire
table first in order to be able to calculate their final dimensions and
layout. But recent engines are also capable of incremental rendering,
they try to display what they got so far as quick as possible.

To answer the OP's question: That's simply how it is. The HTML code is
requested and downloaded first. All external resources (stylesheets,
images, scripts ...) are requested after that, you can't control when
and in which order they arrive in the browser.

And remove that stupid and amateurish "All Images Within This Website
Are Subject To Copyright ..." alert after right clicking. It prevents
nothing, but annoys your visitors.

Micha

Joe Makowiec

2005-12-28, 6:22 pm

On 28 Dec 2005 in macromedia.dreamweaver, whitbycolin wrote:

> I wondered if you could help me with a website I have built and
> uploaded, the problem is that when I go to the website the
> background is strangely delayed. The text appears straight away but
> with the background coming a few seconds later it looks odd. It is
> quite possibly a simple mistake but it is driving me mad. This is
> the first time I built a site myself from the ground up and I would
> welcome your advice. The website cam be found at
> http://www.williamriley.co.uk

You have several more issues going on:
- Your total page size is huge

http://www.websiteoptimization.com/...iamriley.co.uk/

including that the background image for the page (image1) is 25K.
That could significantly slow down the loading of your page in general,
not to mention the background.
- Your header background image (headerBG.jpg) is missing. You're on a
*nix server, which is case sensitive; the file should be headerbg.jpg.
You may have other images like this, too. Take a look at your page
from another computer and see.

--
Joe Makowiec
http://makowiec.net/
Email: http://makowiec.net/email.php

P@tty Ayers

2005-12-28, 6:22 pm

"Joe Makowiec" <makowiec@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:Xns973A8BF907C28makowiecatnycapdotrE@216.104.212.96...

> You have several more issues going on:
> - Your total page size is huge

With 246 Kb of images on the page, I wouldn't be worrying about the speed of
rendering of tables! :-)

--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--