This is Interesting: Free Magazines for Graphics designers and webmasters
Home > Archive > Dreamweaver > August 2004 > A feeble, newbie cry from beneath a pile of CSS
You are viewing an archived Text-only version of the thread.
To view this thread in it's original format and/or if you want to reply to
this thread please [click here]
| Author |
A feeble, newbie cry from beneath a pile of CSS
|
|
| bendrissa 2004-08-26, 12:22 pm |
| Xref: newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com macromedia.dreamweaver:958818
Forgive me - it's midnight and my head is spinning.
I understood that the concept of WYSIWYG editors was to help designers and
non-techies to design sites intuitively - and that DW was the king. But my
experience over this first couple of weeks of learning DW has been anything but
'WYSIWYG', unless 'WYG' is supposed to be a headache.
I've resisted the urge to do my site in Flash, but I'm starting to reconsider
- I found it infinitely easier to understand when learning. I've been
determined to learn a CSS approach in DW straight away, but it's just madness.
The tutorials on the MM site aren't really beginner-friendly. DW seems to lead
you through an endless stream of options, requiring a level of HTML knowledge
that suggests you could just go and code the thing by hand.
Should I give in and accept some kind of ultra-simple and, no doubt,
treacle-coded alternative to DW? Hell, just an auto-blogger?! Or is their hope
for me if I simply forget about CSS and go for a few tables? My problem is that
I need to feel I understand everything, although I'm reaching the stage where I
just want to get ANYTHING done and online. My boss is being very patient - too
patient, infact.
And all I'm trying to acheive is a banner image at the top, a navigation bar
underneath with roll-over or Flash headings, a main column and a side bar on
the right! This must be the most conventional and simplest design layout there
is. The image gallery, mp3s and video clips can wait...
Oh, woe. There must be an easier way in?
Please take just a tiny amount of pity in me.
Thanks...
| |
| don Carlos 2004-08-26, 12:22 pm |
| Well, let's see. I think I can summarize what the contributing experts will
start with. First, what version of Dreamweaver are you using? The amount of
CSS help differs greatly from 4 to MX2004. Second, if you have never used CSS,
then a tutorial or two, unrelated to your site, would be a good start, so that
you can get a feel for just what CSS can do for you. Next, and this one is for
Murray, avoid using Flash, DW and Fireworks popup and other special menu
behaviors. They really are not efficient. There are others that are better
.... especially in view of your desire to use CSS as your basis. Now, that's
the generic stuff. I would recommend "Eric Meyer on CSS" a book with follow
along tutorials, but that's the way I learn. In their he'll build pages and
talk about converting pages. I'm sure you'll get advice from the others. Be
not afraid, nor faint of heart.
| |
|
|
> I understood that the concept of WYSIWYG editors was to help designers
and
> non-techies to design sites intuitively - and that DW was the king. But my
> experience over this first couple of weeks of learning DW has been
anything but
> 'WYSIWYG', unless 'WYG' is supposed to be a headache.
>
> I've resisted the urge to do my site in Flash, but I'm starting to
reconsider
> - I found it infinitely easier to understand when learning. I've been
> determined to learn a CSS approach in DW straight away, but it's just
madness.
> The tutorials on the MM site aren't really beginner-friendly. DW seems to
lead
> you through an endless stream of options, requiring a level of HTML
knowledge
> that suggests you could just go and code the thing by hand.
>
> Should I give in and accept some kind of ultra-simple and, no doubt,
> treacle-coded alternative to DW? Hell, just an auto-blogger?! Or is their
hope
> for me if I simply forget about CSS and go for a few tables? My problem is
that
> I need to feel I understand everything, although I'm reaching the stage
where I
> just want to get ANYTHING done and online. My boss is being very patient -
too
> patient, infact.
>
> And all I'm trying to acheive is a banner image at the top, a navigation
bar
> underneath with roll-over or Flash headings, a main column and a side bar
on
> the right! This must be the most conventional and simplest design layout
there
> is. The image gallery, mp3s and video clips can wait...
>
> Oh, woe. There must be an easier way in?
>
> Please take just a tiny amount of pity in me.
>
> Thanks...
>
Okay, bendrissa, stop the groveling. We all climb the learning curve at
some point. My ascent was just as painful. There are not many good books
out there on CSS. Most are either poorly written or just too esoteric to be
of any use. Although I'm not impressed by the "Teach Yourself ... in 24
hours" idea, I do think Kynn Bartlett did a great job with "Teach Yourself
CSS in 24 Hours" (published by Sams). I'd recommend getting this book, and
most importantly, play around and try different things on a test site.
You'll get the hang of it eventually. Beware that what works with one
browser may not work with another. So get a copy of Opera and any other
browser you think your users might use and make sure you preview your site
in each.
As for requesting help here, the best way to go is to include a link to your
site and make the stylesheet available so others can more easily evaluate
your problem.
| |
| bendrissa 2004-08-26, 12:22 pm |
| Thanks Don. I'm using MX 2004.
I get waves of CSS understanding, followed by the loss of all feeling in my
limbs. I'm not sure if it's even neccessary, since I really am after a simple
site that will stay pretty constant. I've just seen a video tutorial about
using the 'starter templates', which might help me get going and make me feel
better.
The CSS tutorials I've seen all seem to be in code view and just list
shed-loads of HTML - little use of the software features and no encouragement
to understand what the scripting means.
Yes, I can imagine that build-in menu behaviours are a no-no and shall steer
clear. At the moment, however, efficiency is the least of my worries...
Any other advice much appreciated - even if it's simply the number for
Samaritans.
| |
| Murray *TMM* 2004-08-26, 12:22 pm |
| Xref: newsfeed-west.nntpserver.com macromedia.dreamweaver:958867
don Carlos did a great summary job.
Now - here's the truth. If you want to *really* use DW, you must learn
HTML. And, furthermore, approaching DW as a WYSIWYG tool (which it ain't)
will delay your progress.
How can we help you get started with this. Small bites are much better than
a big one....
--
Murray --- ICQ 71997575
Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver
(If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
==================
http://www.dreamweavermx-templates.com - Template Triage!
http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/ - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
==================
"bendrissa" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:cgjah1$6g8$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Thanks Don. I'm using MX 2004.
>
> I get waves of CSS understanding, followed by the loss of all feeling in
> my
> limbs. I'm not sure if it's even neccessary, since I really am after a
> simple
> site that will stay pretty constant. I've just seen a video tutorial about
> using the 'starter templates', which might help me get going and make me
> feel
> better.
>
> The CSS tutorials I've seen all seem to be in code view and just list
> shed-loads of HTML - little use of the software features and no
> encouragement
> to understand what the scripting means.
>
> Yes, I can imagine that build-in menu behaviours are a no-no and shall
> steer
> clear. At the moment, however, efficiency is the least of my worries...
>
> Any other advice much appreciated - even if it's simply the number for
> Samaritans.
>
| |
| DixieGal 2004-08-26, 12:22 pm |
| Hi all, I find those waves of CSS understanding can really be seen and felt by
opening a site already done in it and changing the Css settings or "linking" in
another CSS style sheet. Then it is easier to see how it all affects the site.
I am very familiar w/ CSS... and WYSIWYG HTML generators... (being a new
convert myself).... and I found that working through the getting started
tutorials in DW were a tremendous help. I know I know... don't have time....
don't have energy.... don't have patience.... but... it helps tremendously to
be able to see how a site's "flavor" can be altered by just changing the CSS
file linked in to a site.
What, perchance is your old WYSIWYG editor? I may have some files in that
generator that I can zip/email you to diddle with.
Cheers... and if all else fails, a good drowining of sorrows in Chunky Monkey
icecream can cure a good deal of ills
<wink> DixieGal
| |
| DiMa *TMM* 2004-08-26, 12:22 pm |
| bendrissa <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote:
> I understood that the concept of WYSIWYG editors was to help
> designers and non-techies to design sites intuitively - and that DW
> was the king. But my experience over this first couple of weeks of
> learning DW has been anything but 'WYSIWYG', unless 'WYG' is supposed
> to be a headache.
Sorry, but this simply isn't true. First, there's no such thing as WYSIWYG
when it comes to the web. Every viewer of every browser on every monitor of
every computer in the world will see something different - how could you
possibly get at WYSIWYG-type thing with that sort of difference? Dreamweaver
is not easy. It's the best, but it's not easy. There are many other crappy
web site "makers" which are far easier and will build much crappier web
sites for you - including Front Page, GoLive and many other smaller things.
Dreamweaver does not make things for you, it just provides the best set of
tools for making the best pages you can. Here is something I wrote a few
days ago about what Dreamweaver really is:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g...edia.com&rnum=2
> I've resisted the urge to do my site in Flash, but I'm starting to
> reconsider - I found it infinitely easier to understand when
> learning.
Keep resisting. Flash should be left to games, cartoons, galleries - NOT web
content. Plenty of people disagree with this, but those are (usually) people
who expect everyone to be on high speed internet and for everyone to be
sighted and perfect and want hip and annoying crap instead of easily
accessible content to all.
<!-- Getting off soapbox ;) -->
I've been determined to learn a CSS approach in DW straight
> away, but it's just madness. The tutorials on the MM site aren't
> really beginner-friendly. DW seems to lead you through an endless
> stream of options, requiring a level of HTML knowledge that suggests
> you could just go and code the thing by hand.
Doing a site with CSS does not preclude one from using tables. If you want
to use tables, why not use them? We do. Tables rock! They have their uses
and there are a lot of them. BUT - you have to learn how to use them, too,
and they have many rules as well, which people are fond of ignoring or
breaking. And yes, any kind of web development requires that you have at
least a basic knowledge of HTML. That's like hoping you can make a pie
without knowing what goes in it. If you want a frozen pie, go get one. If
you want to make one, learn what it's made of and bake it. If the recipe
calls for 2 tsp vanilla and you don't know what a tsp is or what vanilla is,
how do you expect to make it? HTML is a language and it has vocabulary and
grammar and syntax. It's not easy, but it's not difficult, either. If your
boss thinks you can magically learn it in a matter of weeks - or even
months - he is (sorry) a bonehead.
> Should I give in and accept some kind of ultra-simple and, no doubt,
> treacle-coded alternative to DW? Hell, just an auto-blogger?! Or is
> their hope for me if I simply forget about CSS and go for a few
> tables? My problem is that I need to feel I understand everything,
> although I'm reaching the stage where I just want to get ANYTHING
> done and online. My boss is being very patient - too patient, infact.
There is hope. 'There's always hope. But don't jump in the deep end. Buy
some good books and learn the vocabulary first. Go to www.w3schools.com and
learn some html and css first. Get a good Dreamweaver book and study it. And
if your boss gives you a hard time tell him he should have HIRED someone to
do this instead of expecting someone who isn't a professional take care of
it. This is no offense to you, but it is to your boss. Frankly, we're a
little tired of people assuming that our job is easy and that any 12 year
old could do it. Would your boss let a 12 year old fix his car? Would he ask
you to fix it? I'm thinking he'd probably hire a mechanic, no?
> And all I'm trying to acheive is a banner image at the top, a
> navigation bar underneath with roll-over or Flash headings, a main
> column and a side bar on the right! This must be the most
> conventional and simplest design layout there is. The image gallery,
> mp3s and video clips can wait...
Can you make a mockup of what you want visually in Fireworks? If we see it,
we can help you much easier.
> Oh, woe. There must be an easier way in?
Not really. Not unless you like microwaved frozen pie :)
>
> Please take just a tiny amount of pity in me.
We all pity you. But mostly because it seems you have a bozo for a boss who
expects you to do something you weren't trained to do!
....and because we've all been at the beginning before :)
--
--
--
DiMa
Team Macromedia Member for Dreamweaver MX
--------------------
WEB FORUM USERS: Please log on to the Newsgroup for quicker replies to
your posts: news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver
For Answers, check here first:
http://groups.google.com/advanced_g...dia.dreamweaver
http://www.macromedia.com/support/d.../technotes.html
http://www.projectseven.com/faqbase
http://dwfaq.com
http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/etiquette.htm
www dot flyingtigerwebdesign dot com
| |
| kg3003 2004-08-26, 12:22 pm |
| I know I'll be crucified for saying this, but why not ditch the CSS, and make a
simple html page using tables for layout and font formatting. (I can hear the
screams from here...) At least you'll have some results, and will start
getting the feel for HTML... and then you can take the next step and convert
it to CSS. CSS drives me nuts. I design for a network with a lot of ancient
machines, and trying to get it backwards-compatible is a nightmare.
| |
|
|
| Donna Casey 2004-08-26, 12:22 pm |
| bendrissa wrote:
> Forgive me - it's midnight and my head is spinning.
>
> I understood that the concept of WYSIWYG editors was to help designers and
> non-techies to design sites intuitively - and that DW was the king. But my
> experience over this first couple of weeks of learning DW has been anything but
> 'WYSIWYG', unless 'WYG' is supposed to be a headache.
<snipped />
, woe. There must be an easier way in?
>
> Please take just a tiny amount of pity in me.
>
> Thanks...
>
While not free, a great place to start from the very basics and take it
all the way through to a sophisticated level is projectseven.com's
Foundations--money well spent if you are starting from scratch and find
it all too bewildering.
PVII really know their stuff and the support at their forum is great, too.
DWMX2004 is a great tool for CSS, but it sounds like you need to step
back and read some of the basics written in a way that isn't overwhelming.
Your question is just too large for one person to answer, except to
point you to resources that are easy to understand.
Take a deep breath and don't ditch DW. Just visit projectseven.com.
Another good resource is www.css-discuss.org, which has links to all
kinds of browser bugs, templates, tutorials and such.
HTH
--
Donna Casey | Web Designer/Developer/Instructor
Team Macromedia Dreamweaver & Fireworks | www.macromedia.com/go/team
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Co-Author | Macromedia Studio MX Bible
Contributor | Dreamweaver MX Magic
Contributor | Fireworks MX Magic
| |
| musicianx 2004-08-26, 12:22 pm |
| you're trying to move/animate CSS divs? i have a pretty cool web page that
animates entirely with CSS and javascript, you're welcome to look at a copy
and even butcher the code if you want. i don't have it posted but i can get it
to you.
ya know, i think the hardest thing to grip with CSS is the class and id
attributes but these must be defined to be used in a script
moving the divs (such as a banner) require increments of X/Y screen
coordinates over a duration of time using javascript
| |
| bendrissa 2004-08-26, 12:22 pm |
| Many thanks for all your encouragment and advice. I suppose I should defend my
boss, who has only accepted my suggestion that I handle the website. It's my
fault really - I like to take things on. Mind you, she's increased my salary
accordingly (well, fractionally) and so I need to overcome the difficulties! I
did this for our interactive Annual Report and had a few hairy moments learning
Flash too, but I got there in the end.
I appreciate the offer of a glance over a Fireworks mock-up. I'll give this a
shot, although I've not used FW much. I have a Flash mock-up if it's useful?
Just a jpeg?
And thanks for the links, which I will check out. I have a pretty good book,
although it leads you through every feature, rather than focussing on tutorials
so that you can build the understanding in a context.
I think I'll begin with a tables-based site, then replace it with something
more CSS-focussed at a later stage. I'm probably moaning more than I need to -
I'll just get going with some more of the tutorials. I'm sure I could use a
tutorial and simply add my content as I go along, but, as I mentioned, I feel
the need to understand everything I'm doing, rather than responding to
instructions.
Thanks
| |
| James Shook 2004-08-26, 12:22 pm |
| bendrissa wrote:
> And all I'm trying to acheive is a banner image at the top, a navigation bar
> underneath with roll-over or Flash headings, a main column and a side bar on
> the right! This must be the most conventional and simplest design layout there
> is. The image gallery, mp3s and video clips can wait...
This isn't CSS-based, but if you are willing to start with tables, this
tutorial shows you how to make exactly the page you describe:
http://www.dwfaq.com/Tutorials/Tabl...ible_tables.asp
CSS is confusing because it is incomplete as a page layout language, and
some of its properties and the way they behave are counter-intuitive.
And today's crop of browsers don't completely agree on the fine points
of how to interpret it. Most of the designers in this forum started by
building pages with tables (since that's all there was at the time they
started) and have transitioned to CSS slowly if they have done so at
all. While there are some aspects of table behavior that can be
frustrating, it is a perfectly fine way to build a page. Some purists
will recite in a robot-like drone "Tables were meant for tabular data."
Not true, historically, and tables remain a perfectly valid way to
create a page.
However, even if you using tables for you page's structure, do use CSS
for the visual formatting of things like font, text size and color and
so on. Slowly familiarize yourself with CSS when you need it, and you
will build up a critical mass of knowledge about it that will allow you
to make the transition to all-CSS layouts more easily.
--
James M. Shook
http://www.jshook.com
| |
| bendrissa 2004-08-26, 7:15 pm |
| Thanks James - that's a really useful and well thought-out tutorial.
| |
| DiMa *TMM* 2004-08-26, 7:15 pm |
| bendrissa <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote:
> Many thanks for all your encouragment and advice. I suppose I should
> defend my boss, who has only accepted my suggestion that I handle the
> website. It's my fault really - I like to take things on. Mind you,
> she's increased my salary accordingly (well, fractionally) and so I
> need to overcome the difficulties! I did this for our interactive
> Annual Report and had a few hairy moments learning Flash too, but I
> got there in the end.
Well, then...get reading! :) You have a lot learn and a deadline. Bummer!
> I appreciate the offer of a glance over a Fireworks mock-up. I'll
> give this a shot, although I've not used FW much. I have a Flash
> mock-up if it's useful? Just a jpeg?
Any kind of visual would work.
> And thanks for the links, which I will check out. I have a pretty
> good book, although it leads you through every feature, rather than
> focussing on tutorials so that you can build the understanding in a
> context.
Which book?
--
--
--
DiMa
Team Macromedia Member for Dreamweaver MX
--------------------
WEB FORUM USERS: Please log on to the Newsgroup for quicker replies to
your posts: news://forums.macromedia.com/macromedia.dreamweaver
For Answers, check here first:
http://groups.google.com/advanced_g...dia.dreamweaver
http://www.macromedia.com/support/d.../technotes.html
http://www.projectseven.com/faqbase
http://dwfaq.com
http://www.macromedia.com/support/forums/etiquette.htm
www dot flyingtigerwebdesign dot com
| |
| bendrissa 2004-08-26, 11:15 pm |
| Hi DiMa
That's one of the problems - I don't have a deadline. If I did, I'd probably
have thrashed my way through by now!
The book is the Visual Quickstart for MX 2004 - Katherine Ulrich. Seems pretty
comprehensive, but light on tutorials.
|
|
|
| | Copyright 2003 - 2009 forum4designers.com Software forum Computer Hardware reviews |
|