Dreamweaver - Cons? - Designing without Tables / CSS Only

Author

Cons? - Designing without Tables / CSS Only

planeboy7e7

2004-08-10, 12:14 pm

I saw this book online, "Designing without Tables,"
(http://www.sitepoint.com/books/css1/index.php).

I just started reading about this last night, and I think in Dreamweaver, if
you design without tables, you're designing in layers correct?

Are there any distadvantages to this type of design method? Seems like its a
space saver and easier to organize.

Jacob

Al Sparber- PVII

2004-08-10, 12:14 pm

planeboy7e7 wrote:
> I saw this book online, "Designing without Tables,"
> (http://www.sitepoint.com/books/css1/index.php).
>
> I just started reading about this last night, and I think in
> Dreamweaver, if you design without tables, you're designing in layers
> correct?

No. Dreamweaver "Layers" are merely DIVs whose position is set to
absolute. Most people who design table-less pages use DIVs to create
discrete page sections, which can be positioned either statically,
relatively, or absolutely.

> Are there any distadvantages to this type of design method? Seems
> like its a space saver and easier to organize.

There are definite advantages.

This tutorial may help you get a focus on how to do such layouts using
Dreamweaver:
http://www.projectseven.com/tutoria...acfly/index.htm

You may also want to look into subscribing to some dedicated CSS
newsgroups or mailing lists.

--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
DW Extensions - Menu Systems - Tutorials - CSS FastPacks
---------------------------------------------------------
Webdev Newsgroup: news://forums.projectseven.com/pviiwebdev/
CSS Newsgroup: news://forums.projectseven.com/css/
RSS/XML Feeds: http://www.projectseven.com/xml/

planeboy7e7

2004-08-10, 12:14 pm

so there are no disadvantages then?

Julian Roberts

2004-08-10, 12:14 pm

I guess that some content just belongs in tables. eg. Image gallery,
registration form, results grid etc. But, perhaps tables could be put inside
the divs. Or perhaps there's a way around this.

--
Jules
http://www.charon.co.uk/charoncart
Charon Cart 3
Shopping Cart Extension for Dreamweaver MX/MX 2004

Al Sparber- PVII

2004-08-10, 12:14 pm

~Flash~ wrote:
> One disadvantage is that layers can't stretch in percentages (please
> correct me if I'm wrong)

OK :-)

1. Table-less design does not imply the use of "Layers"
2. DIVs can be fluid, centered, or fixed
3. The width of a DIV can be expressed in pixels, percentages, ems,
inches, points (but not feet or yards)

--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
DW Extensions - Menu Systems - Tutorials - CSS FastPacks
---------------------------------------------------------
Webdev Newsgroup: news://forums.projectseven.com/pviiwebdev/
CSS Newsgroup: news://forums.projectseven.com/css/
RSS/XML Feeds: http://www.projectseven.com/xml/

~Flash~

2004-08-10, 12:14 pm

One disadvantage is that layers can't stretch in percentages (please correct me
if I'm wrong)
There my be a JavaScript to do it or something along those lines but I've
never heard of anything and that wouldn't be a good solution since it'd take up
more coding then a tables simple 100%.
Another thing is that layers can't be centered... they can hook onto something
that is centered but they can't do this alone (alone meaning without a script)

Flash

Joe {RoastHorse}

2004-08-10, 12:14 pm

some content definitely belongs in tables. CSS just allows you to stop
using tables for layout (if that's what you want to do).

joe

Julian Roberts wrote:

> I guess that some content just belongs in tables. eg. Image gallery,
> registration form, results grid etc. But, perhaps tables could be put inside
> the divs. Or perhaps there's a way around this.
>

Al Sparber- PVII

2004-08-10, 12:14 pm

planeboy7e7 wrote:
> so there are no disadvantages then?

Not really. The biggest hurdles are the learning curve and knowing when
to use a particular technique. As Julian wrote, certain information
belongs in - and works better in - tables. As an example, our web site
can be considered a table-less design. However, columnar data such as
lists of Extensions or Products are housed in tables, which is the
perfect container for such data.

The other disadvantage is not technical. It involves the controversy and
polarization that this subject causes among web designers. There are no
immutable laws about using or not using tables for layout. The real
issue is to use the right technique given a project's goals and your
capabilities. Learn and practice and don't deploy until you're
confident.

--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
DW Extensions - Menu Systems - Tutorials - CSS FastPacks
---------------------------------------------------------
Webdev Newsgroup: news://forums.projectseven.com/pviiwebdev/
CSS Newsgroup: news://forums.projectseven.com/css/
RSS/XML Feeds: http://www.projectseven.com/xml/

CarlGrint

2004-08-10, 12:14 pm

For 'laying' out Forms using DIVS' = http://realworldstyle.com/forms.html,
ThumbNail Gallery = http://realworldstyle.com/thumb_float.html

Of course you could insert a Table into a DIV if you wanted to, there is not
problem do this, so if you find using CSS, DIVs to layout certain things is not
working, you can simply place a table inside a DIV, but sitll retain a very
flexible DIV design.

Originally posted by: Newsgroup User
I guess that some content just belongs in tables. eg. Image gallery,
registration form, results grid etc. But, perhaps tables could be put inside
the divs. Or perhaps there's a way around this.

--
Jules
http://www.charon.co.uk/charoncart
Charon Cart 3
Shopping Cart Extension for Dreamweaver MX/MX 2004

Joe {RoastHorse}

2004-08-10, 12:14 pm

> One disadvantage is that layers can't stretch in percentages (please
correct me
> if I'm wrong)

you can specify the dimensions of any element in any unit you like with
CSS (px, %, ems...)

> Another thing is that layers can't be centered

you can center an element using the margin property in CSS. examples:
http://www.roast-horse.com/tutorial...tent/index.html
http://www.roast-horse.com/tutorial...tered/index.htm

joe

~Flash~ wrote:

> One disadvantage is that layers can't stretch in percentages (please correct me
> if I'm wrong)
> There my be a JavaScript to do it or something along those lines but I've
> never heard of anything and that wouldn't be a good solution since it'd take up
> more coding then a tables simple 100%.
> Another thing is that layers can't be centered... they can hook onto something
> that is centered but they can't do this alone (alone meaning without a script)
>
> Flash
>

Richard B.

2004-08-10, 12:14 pm

All the advice you've given sounds good.

I'd like to add one caveat. Look at your web page with different browsers
and different browser versions. There are people who are still using old
versions and this can be quite a headache when designing for them.

Even with the newer browsers there are headaches when it comes to the
padding/margin issue. Be sure you understand the way padding/margins are
handled in Mozilla and IE.

Once past the learning curve you'll be glad you switched to tableless CSS
layouts.

"planeboy7e7" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:cfafkf$99j$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> I saw this book online, "Designing without Tables,"
> (http://www.sitepoint.com/books/css1/index.php).
>
> I just started reading about this last night, and I think in Dreamweaver,
if
> you design without tables, you're designing in layers correct?
>
> Are there any distadvantages to this type of design method? Seems like
its a
> space saver and easier to organize.
>
>
> Jacob
>

planeboy7e7

2004-08-10, 11:17 pm

Can form elements be setup within a layer or <div> without using a table?

~Flash~

2004-08-10, 11:17 pm

Al Sparber- PVII wrote:
>~Flash~ wrote:
>
>OK :-)
>
>1. Table-less design does not imply the use of "Layers"
>2. DIVs can be fluid, centered, or fixed
>3. The width of a DIV can be expressed in pixels, percentages, ems,
>inches, points (but not feet or yards)

LOL... feet and yards... thanks for the correction...

Flash

Al Sparber- PVII

2004-08-10, 11:17 pm

planeboy7e7 wrote:
> Can form elements be setup within a layer or <div> without using a
> table?

Yes. But I wouldn't advise it unless it was a very simple form with no
more than one field and a submit button. Forms collect data and really
should, under most circumstances, be laid out in a table.

--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
DW Extensions - Menu Systems - Tutorials - CSS FastPacks
---------------------------------------------------------
Webdev Newsgroup: news://forums.projectseven.com/pviiwebdev/
CSS Newsgroup: news://forums.projectseven.com/css/
RSS/XML Feeds: http://www.projectseven.com/xml/

darrel

2004-08-10, 11:17 pm

> Are there any distadvantages to this type of design method? Seems like
its a
> space saver and easier to organize.

The main 'con' is that browsers aren't quite a consistent in rendering CSS
layouts as they are with good'ol tables.

A table layout, for the most part, will be consistent in most desktop
browsers.

CSS layouts will be consistent in most new browsers, but you're going to
have issues with NN4, IE/Mac and IE/PC. IE/PC is fairly easy to work around.
NN4 is fairly easy too, but don't expect your site to look the same in NN4
as the other browsers. IE/Mac can be a pain depending on what you are doing,
but, again, there are workarounds.

So, it just takes a bit more diligence to make your CSS layout work as
intended in all the browsers.

The big advantage is that now your content is not 'locked' into one specific
layout. So it's easy to change and/or repurpose the layout without having to
alter your HTML markup.

If you do dive into CSS-layout, completely ignore DW's 'layer' tool. It'll
only confuse.

-Darrel

Kevin Scholl

2004-08-12, 4:16 am

~Flash~ wrote:
> One disadvantage is that layers can't stretch in percentages (please correct me
> if I'm wrong)

Consider yourself corrected. :) True, you tend to see more fixed-width
CSS layouts, but they can be set using percentages.

> There my be a JavaScript to do it or something along those lines but I've
> never heard of anything and that wouldn't be a good solution since it'd take up
> more coding then a tables simple 100%.

Simply give the DIV a width in percentage. No more code than a table
(and in fact, generally less all other code considered).

> Another thing is that layers can't be centered... they can hook onto something
> that is centered but they can't do this alone (alone meaning without a script)

Again, yes they can. Set the right and left margins of the DIV to auto.
There are numerous sites which demonstrate this (my own included).

--

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CarlGrint

2004-08-13, 12:15 pm

Joe {RoastHorse}

2004-08-13, 12:15 pm

Al Sparber- PVII

2004-08-15, 7:15 pm