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| Author |
Re: Toggle-O-Matic Suite
|
|
| ~Angela, TMM 2004-04-21, 2:51 pm |
| (Be sure to check out our documentation
> and examples online:
> ttp://www.dwfaq.com/Store/demos/Toggle-O-Matic/docs/ )
http://www.dwfaq.com/Store/demos/Toggle-O-Matic/docs/
Sorry for the unclickable link in my original post. I guess I'm just a tad
excited about the product's release. :-)
Thanks,
~Angela
| |
| Al Sparber- PVII 2004-04-21, 2:52 pm |
| ~Angela, TMM wrote:
> Hello Everyone,
> without being locked into any predefined CSS or code structures.
I'm not quite sure what that means. I see a series of 3 behaviors that
are manually deployed, so what do you actually mean by "locked" in?
| |
| ~Angela, TMM 2004-04-21, 2:52 pm |
| Hi Al,
Basically that means that the user can write their own CSS and their own
HTML. I don't make any requirements for how they set up their menus, faqs,
or other toggle-able item. In other words, you can use <ul>, <div>, <p>,
<a>, etc. any way you see fit.
CSS isn't required at all for Toggle-O-Matic Display or Toggle-O-Matic
Visibility if you want to hide a shown element with the first click. You'd
only need CSS if the element is not shown, and you want it to show with the
first click. The JavaScript detects the current state of the element and
toggles it (essentially to its opposite).
Toggle-O-Matic Class doesn't require that an element has a class defined for
it already in order to toggle it back and forth. Of course you can have a
default class if you choose, but it isn't required. In other words, you can
toggle between an element without a class, and a class. In fact if you're
inclined you can toggle between multiple classes too. <p class="toggle
myClass"> can be toggled to the classes: yourClass whateverClass.
Hope that clears it up for you. :-)
Thanks,
~Angela
--
Angela C. Buraglia, Founder:
~FAQs, Tutorials & Resources~ http://www.DreamweaverFAQ.com
~My Extensions~ http://www.dwfaq.com/go.asp?ID=AngelaX10
DWfaq Support Newsgroup: news://support.dwfaq.com/support
Co-Author with Joseph Lowery, Dreamweaver MX 2004 Killer Tips:
http://www.dwkillertips.com
Extension Developer for Cartweaver 2:
http://www.cartweaver.com/extensionsuite.cfm
Remove the CAPS in my E-mail to reply off list.
"Al Sparber- PVII" <adSTRApmin@projectseven.com> wrote in message
news:c5po31$g75$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> ~Angela, TMM wrote:
>
>
> I'm not quite sure what that means. I see a series of 3 behaviors that
> are manually deployed, so what do you actually mean by "locked" in?
>
| |
|
| From the "License (EULA)" page:
Licensor is and remains the owner of all titles, rights, copyrights and
interests in the Software and the code output by the software.[color=darkred]
The code OUTPUT by the software???????????
With these licensing terms, I wouldn't touch this product with a 10-foot
pole.
--
Irvin
------------------------
http://www.pixel69.com
~Angela, TMM wrote:[color=darkred]
> Hello Everyone,
>
> Toggle-O-Matic Suite is officially released today! Toggle-O-Matic
> Suite is only available from the DWfaq.com Store for $45. (Only
> $22.50 for Cartweaver 2 customers who purchase by May 16th. If you've
> been planning to get Cartweaver 2, now is the time to do it! Order
> Cartweaver 2 first, then come back to DWfaq.com, login, and get your
> discount automatically. Login required to verify special pricing
> eligibility.) http://www.dwfaq.com/Store/detail/?id=DWfaqToggle
>
> If you haven't already clicked the link above, here's just a little
> bit about the Toggle-O-Matic Suite:
>
> The Toggle-O-Matic Suite is comprised of 3 useful behaviors:
> Toggle-O-Matic Class, Toggle-O-Matic Display and Toggle-O-Matic
> Visibility. Using a combination of Toggle-O-Matic behaviors you can
> quickly create complex menus, FAQs, image galleries and much more,
> without being locked into any predefined CSS or code structures. (Be
> sure to check out our documentation and examples online:
> ttp://www.dwfaq.com/Store/demos/Toggle-O-Matic/docs/ )
>
> With all Toggle-O-Matic behaviors, the second time you perform the
> action (onClick, onMouseOver, etc.) the element returns to its
> original state. Use them individually, or combined to create a
> variety of DHTML effects.
>
> You may apply the Toggle-O-Matic behaviors to any element in the
> <body>, including the <body> tag itself. As long as the browser
> supports the CSS property for the element, Toggle-O-Matic can toggle
> it!
>
> Special thanks to Dan Short for all his help (especially the
> examples). A big thanks to Alex Mariņo for the sketch of the product
> logo. Thanks to all the beta testers (you know who you are). You guys
> and gals have been fantastic!
>
> If you have any questions about Toggle-O-Matic, please feel free to
> ask.
>
> Thanks!
> ~Angela
| |
| ~Angela, TMM 2004-04-21, 2:52 pm |
| Hello Irvin,
I own the rights to the JavaScript output by the extension - plain and
simple - and my copyright is in the JS functions. That's not an unusual
thing to have in a license agreement at all.
What are your reservations about that?
Thanks,
~Angela
"irvin" <noone@none.com> wrote in message
news:c5prf7$jgf$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> From the "License (EULA)" page:
>
> Licensor is and remains the owner of all titles, rights, copyrights and
> interests in the Software and the code output by the software.
>
>
> The code OUTPUT by the software???????????
>
>
> With these licensing terms, I wouldn't touch this product with a 10-foot
> pole.
>
>
>
> --
> Irvin
> ------------------------
> http://www.pixel69.com
>
>
>
>
> ~Angela, TMM wrote:
>
>
| |
|
| This are my reservations (and should be the reservations of any person
considering buying this product):
If I use you extension in the process of creating a site for a client, it's
conceivable that you AS THE OWNER OF THE JAVASCRIPT CODE USED IN THAT SITE
could rescind, alter or otherwise modify the licensing agreement.
I wouldn't do that to ANY client.
When I produce a site, I get paid and the customer is entitled to alter ANY
line of code as he deems necessary. Under your declared licensing terms
that's not possible, so I guess that's a NO-NO for me.
And yes, what you are trying to do IS UNUSUAL: "copyrighting" a javascript
function! (I personally doubt that's possible, but I'm no lawyer)
~~~~~~~
Bottom line: it's your product and it's your decision.
You think it's reasonable, and you probably have valid reasons for thinking
that way. I think it's insane, and I have valid reasons for thinking this
way.
We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
Good luck!
--
Irvin
------------------------
http://www.pixel69.com
~Angela, TMM wrote:[color=darkred]
> Hello Irvin,
>
> I own the rights to the JavaScript output by the extension - plain and
> simple - and my copyright is in the JS functions. That's not an
> unusual thing to have in a license agreement at all.
>
> What are your reservations about that?
>
> Thanks,
> ~Angela
>
> "irvin" <noone@none.com> wrote in message
> news:c5prf7$jgf$1@forums.macromedia.com...
| |
| Kindler Chase 2004-04-21, 2:53 pm |
| ~Angela, TMM wrote:
> Hello Irvin,
>
> I own the rights to the JavaScript output by the extension - plain and
> simple - and my copyright is in the JS functions. That's not an
> unusual thing to have in a license agreement at all.
>
> What are your reservations about that?
Just my thoughts here.... nothing more, nothing less....
When I first read the EULA when you first posted a red flag popped up.
Specifically, section 4:
NOT FOR DISTRIBUTION. Licensee may not include the Toggle-O-Matic Suite
extension or the JavaScript it produces within any application for
distribution without express written permission from Licensor
My interpretation of the above is if I produce a website or webpage or
similar, I need your express written permission to deploy the page(s).
Other than that - nice job on the extension :)
--
kindler chase
http://www.ncubed.com
Home of SuperInvoice: The Online Invoicing Application.
Organize your billing process and impress your clients.
news://news.ncubed.com/support
n3 Support Group
| |
| ~Angela, TMM 2004-04-21, 2:53 pm |
| Hi Kindler,
I can see why that might be of concern, so here's a brief explanation. You
have your commercial product from nCubed, SuperInvoice. You could not use
this extension or the JavaScript in SuperInvoice without my express written
permission.
As for normal website usage, where the work is done for a client and posted
to the web, that is perfectly alright. It is when Toggle-O-Matic is
contained in a package of any kind, and made available for the purpose of
distribution be it free or commercial that the license is prohibiting.
Hope that clears it up for you and thanks for the kind words. :-)
I'll see what I can do to get the EULA updated to make licensee's rights
more clear.
Thanks,
~Angela
--
Angela C. Buraglia, Founder:
~FAQs, Tutorials & Resources~ http://www.DreamweaverFAQ.com
~My Extensions~ http://www.dwfaq.com/go.asp?ID=AngelaX10
DWfaq Support Newsgroup: news://support.dwfaq.com/support
Co-Author with Joseph Lowery, Dreamweaver MX 2004 Killer Tips:
http://www.dwkillertips.com
Extension Developer for Cartweaver 2:
http://www.cartweaver.com/extensionsuite.cfm
Remove the CAPS in my E-mail to reply off list.
"Kindler Chase" <weaver@DELETEME_roubaixinteractive.com> wrote in message
news:c5ptdb$l7j$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> ~Angela, TMM wrote:
>
> Just my thoughts here.... nothing more, nothing less....
>
> When I first read the EULA when you first posted a red flag popped up.
> Specifically, section 4:
> NOT FOR DISTRIBUTION. Licensee may not include the Toggle-O-Matic Suite
> extension or the JavaScript it produces within any application for
> distribution without express written permission from Licensor
>
> My interpretation of the above is if I produce a website or webpage or
> similar, I need your express written permission to deploy the page(s).
>
>
> Other than that - nice job on the extension :)
>
> --
> kindler chase
> http://www.ncubed.com
> Home of SuperInvoice: The Online Invoicing Application.
> Organize your billing process and impress your clients.
>
> news://news.ncubed.com/support
> n3 Support Group
>
>
| |
| ~Angela, TMM 2004-04-21, 2:53 pm |
| Hello Irvin,
It is entirely possible to copyright a JavaScript function. After all, it is
intellectual property. Why else would many other JavaScript functions on the
web even bother to put in a copyright?
This copyright is in place so that people who haven't paid for it are not
entitled to use it nor are they entitled to support. What's to stop people
from just finding my code online and using it? Copyright. (Yes, I know
people may do it despite copyright, but then they are in violation. That's a
whole other point that I won't get into now.)
You can use the extension and code it outputs in a website. You cannot use
it for example in an application that you package and distribute. For
example, Cartweaver is an application that is packaged and distributed.
Cartweaver can't use the code without my permission in their distributed
application.
By no means does this say you can't use it in a website you create for a
client. I suppose I can check with my attorney again and adjust the wording
to make it clearer what the Licensee's rights are.
Paragraph IX is clear that I cannot terminate the license unless the
licensee has breached the license agreement somehow. So that in itself
offers you the protection from me revoking your usage. Don't violate the
license, and the licensee can use it. :-)
I can understand your concerns and will update the EULA shortly. If you
think there is something else that is not clear I'd be happy to hear it.
Thanks,
~Angela
"irvin" <noone@none.com> wrote in message
news:c5pspr$kmi$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> This are my reservations (and should be the reservations of any person
> considering buying this product):
>
> If I use you extension in the process of creating a site for a client,
it's
> conceivable that you AS THE OWNER OF THE JAVASCRIPT CODE USED IN THAT SITE
> could rescind, alter or otherwise modify the licensing agreement.
>
> I wouldn't do that to ANY client.
>
> When I produce a site, I get paid and the customer is entitled to alter
ANY
> line of code as he deems necessary. Under your declared licensing terms
> that's not possible, so I guess that's a NO-NO for me.
>
> And yes, what you are trying to do IS UNUSUAL: "copyrighting" a javascript
> function! (I personally doubt that's possible, but I'm no lawyer)
>
> ~~~~~~~
>
> Bottom line: it's your product and it's your decision.
>
> You think it's reasonable, and you probably have valid reasons for
thinking
> that way. I think it's insane, and I have valid reasons for thinking this
> way.
>
>
> We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
>
>
>
> Good luck!
>
>
>
> --
> Irvin
> ------------------------
> http://www.pixel69.com
>
>
>
>
> ~Angela, TMM wrote:
>
>
| |
| Al Sparber- PVII 2004-04-21, 2:53 pm |
| ~Angela, TMM wrote:
> Hello Irvin,
>
> It is entirely possible to copyright a JavaScript function. After
> all, it is intellectual property. Why else would many other
> JavaScript functions on the web even bother to put in a copyright?
We should have done that 2 years ago with SwapClass :-)
If it makes you feel more secure then go for it. I'm sure you're
familiar with Tree Menu Magic code cropping up in everything from normal
sites to shopping carts and such - so you may have a point. Just hard to
enforce.
| |
| Al Sparber- PVII 2004-04-21, 2:53 pm |
| ~Angela, TMM wrote:
> Hi Al,
>
> Basically that means that the user can write their own CSS and their
> own HTML. I don't make any requirements for how they set up their
> menus, faqs, or other toggle-able item. In other words, you can use
> <ul>, <div>, <p>, <a>, etc. any way you see fit.
I see. I just want to make it a point that our SwapClass extension (as
well as its cousin PVII MultiClass) has had this capability (and lots
more) since it was released over 2 years ago. It seemed you were drawing
a comparison and I wanted to make sure it wasn't with us.
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Dreamweaver Extensions - DesignPacks - Tutorials - Books
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The PVII Newsgroup | news://forums.projectseven.com/pviiwebdev
The CSS Newsgroup | news://forums.projectseven.com/css
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| |
|
| Angela,
thanks for the explanation. I still believe a javascript function can't be
copyrighted, but that's just my opinion and totally unrelated to your
product. So, I won't delve into that. I respect your position on this
subject, as I'm sure you'll respect mine.
I'm sorry it can be used freely (in all sorts of websites and applications),
but I also respect your desire to maximize your income. It's your right to
do so.
I'll pass on what certainly looks like an interesting product. :-(
--
Irvin
------------------------
http://www.pixel69.com
~Angela, TMM wrote:[color=darkred]
> Hello Irvin,
>
> It is entirely possible to copyright a JavaScript function. After
> all, it is intellectual property. Why else would many other
> JavaScript functions on the web even bother to put in a copyright?
>
> This copyright is in place so that people who haven't paid for it are
> not entitled to use it nor are they entitled to support. What's to
> stop people from just finding my code online and using it? Copyright.
> (Yes, I know people may do it despite copyright, but then they are in
> violation. That's a whole other point that I won't get into now.)
>
> You can use the extension and code it outputs in a website. You
> cannot use it for example in an application that you package and
> distribute. For example, Cartweaver is an application that is
> packaged and distributed. Cartweaver can't use the code without my
> permission in their distributed application.
>
> By no means does this say you can't use it in a website you create
> for a client. I suppose I can check with my attorney again and adjust
> the wording to make it clearer what the Licensee's rights are.
>
> Paragraph IX is clear that I cannot terminate the license unless the
> licensee has breached the license agreement somehow. So that in itself
> offers you the protection from me revoking your usage. Don't violate
> the license, and the licensee can use it. :-)
>
> I can understand your concerns and will update the EULA shortly. If
> you think there is something else that is not clear I'd be happy to
> hear it.
>
> Thanks,
> ~Angela
>
>
>
>
> "irvin" <noone@none.com> wrote in message
> news:c5pspr$kmi$1@forums.macromedia.com...
| |
| David B 2004-04-21, 2:53 pm |
| Al Sparber- PVII wrote:
> ~Angela, TMM wrote:
>
>
> We should have done that 2 years ago with SwapClass :-)
So you're saying that SwapClass is essentially free because you erred in
not protecting it in a timely manner? Just curious; it's one of my faves.
With some exceptions, I don't have a problem with people copyrighting
JavaScripts and similar functions. People who don't want to pay are free
to search for free alternatives, and if there are no alternatives, then
maybe the gizmo's price tag is worth it.
My reservation would be with people obtaining copyrights or patents that
might be described as frivolous, generic or overly far-reaching. Exhibit
A - What dumbass came up with the idea of copyrighting the word
"windows"? I've been reading about the growing patent war being fought
between Microsoft and its competitors, and it's as disturbing as it is
interesting. (Did you hear about the company that says Microsoft doesn't
own the rights to FAT?!)
I'm sure we'll be hearing a lot more about patent infringement in the
years ahead.
| |
| Al Sparber- PVII 2004-04-21, 2:53 pm |
| David B wrote:
> Al Sparber- PVII wrote:
>
>
> So you're saying that SwapClass is essentially free because you erred
> in not protecting it in a timely manner? Just curious; it's one of my
> faves.
Of course not :-) SwapClass is free because we chose to release it as a
free extension with a help file and an online tutorial. When we make a
product, we develop not just extensions, but full User Guides, example
pages and templates. A typical PVII UG encompasses well over 100 pages.
As for protecting or copyrighting scripts, that's a different subject
entirely and something I don't have the time to discuss right now.
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Dreamweaver Extensions - DesignPacks - Tutorials - Books
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The PVII Newsgroup | news://forums.projectseven.com/pviiwebdev
The CSS Newsgroup | news://forums.projectseven.com/css
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| |
| ~Angela, TMM 2004-04-21, 2:53 pm |
| Hello Al,
I was not drawing any comparison. If I were, I'd have said something like,
"Unlike other products/extensions..." :-) I'm not out to compare products,
and refrain from doing so as a professional courtesy.
Though I'm not entirely familiar with all of your products, from what I can
tell, Toggle-O-Matic Suite has different features/capabilities.
Regards,
~Angela
"Al Sparber- PVII" <adSTRApmin@projectseven.com> wrote in message
news:c5purc$mhp$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> ~Angela, TMM wrote:
>
> I see. I just want to make it a point that our SwapClass extension (as
> well as its cousin PVII MultiClass) has had this capability (and lots
> more) since it was released over 2 years ago. It seemed you were drawing
> a comparison and I wanted to make sure it wasn't with us.
>
>
> --
> Al Sparber - PVII
> http://www.projectseven.com
> Dreamweaver Extensions - DesignPacks - Tutorials - Books
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> The PVII Newsgroup | news://forums.projectseven.com/pviiwebdev
> The CSS Newsgroup | news://forums.projectseven.com/css
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
| |
| ~Angela, TMM 2004-04-21, 2:53 pm |
| Hello Al,
> We should have done that 2 years ago with SwapClass :-)
I'm really not sure how to interpret this, so I won't. :-)
> If it makes you feel more secure then go for it. I'm sure you're
> familiar with Tree Menu Magic code cropping up in everything from normal
> sites to shopping carts and such - so you may have a point. Just hard to
> enforce.
I'm not familiar with your code being distributed as part of another
package. That is something I would like to avoid, and is why I've made
provisions in the license agreement for that.
Regards,
~Angela
--
Angela C. Buraglia, Founder:
~FAQs, Tutorials & Resources~ http://www.DreamweaverFAQ.com
~My Extensions~ http://www.dwfaq.com/go.asp?ID=AngelaX10
DWfaq Support Newsgroup: news://support.dwfaq.com/support
Co-Author with Joseph Lowery, Dreamweaver MX 2004 Killer Tips:
http://www.dwkillertips.com
Extension Developer for Cartweaver 2:
http://www.cartweaver.com/extensionsuite.cfm
Remove the CAPS in my E-mail to reply off list.
| |
| Bill Horvath .:CMX:. 2004-04-21, 2:53 pm |
| Amazing suite of extensions, Angela. I can think of quite a few uses for
this!
--
Bill Horvath
Free Tutorials for Studio MX
http://www.communitymx.com/free.cfm
Free 10 Day Trial
http://www.communitymx.com/joincmx.cfm
"~Angela, TMM" <angela@dwfaq.com> wrote in message
news:c5pa07$shm$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Hello Everyone,
>
> Toggle-O-Matic Suite is officially released today! Toggle-O-Matic Suite is
> only available from the DWfaq.com Store for $45. (Only $22.50 for
Cartweaver
> 2 customers who purchase by May 16th. If you've been planning to get
> Cartweaver 2, now is the time to do it! Order Cartweaver 2 first, then
come
> back to DWfaq.com, login, and get your discount automatically. Login
> required to verify special pricing eligibility.)
> http://www.dwfaq.com/Store/detail/?id=DWfaqToggle
>
> If you haven't already clicked the link above, here's just a little bit
> about the Toggle-O-Matic Suite:
>
> The Toggle-O-Matic Suite is comprised of 3 useful behaviors:
Toggle-O-Matic
> Class, Toggle-O-Matic Display and Toggle-O-Matic Visibility. Using a
> combination of Toggle-O-Matic behaviors you can quickly create complex
> menus, FAQs, image galleries and much more, without being locked into any
> predefined CSS or code structures. (Be sure to check out our documentation
> and examples online:
> ttp://www.dwfaq.com/Store/demos/Toggle-O-Matic/docs/ )
>
> With all Toggle-O-Matic behaviors, the second time you perform the action
> (onClick, onMouseOver, etc.) the element returns to its original state.
Use
> them individually, or combined to create a variety of DHTML effects.
>
> You may apply the Toggle-O-Matic behaviors to any element in the <body>,
> including the <body> tag itself. As long as the browser supports the CSS
> property for the element, Toggle-O-Matic can toggle it!
>
> Special thanks to Dan Short for all his help (especially the examples). A
> big thanks to Alex Mariņo for the sketch of the product logo. Thanks to
all
> the beta testers (you know who you are). You guys and gals have been
> fantastic!
>
> If you have any questions about Toggle-O-Matic, please feel free to ask.
>
> Thanks!
> ~Angela
> --
> Angela C. Buraglia, Founder:
> ~FAQs, Tutorials & Resources~ http://www.DreamweaverFAQ.com
> ~My Extensions~ http://www.dwfaq.com/go.asp?ID=AngelaX10
> DWfaq Support Newsgroup: news://support.dwfaq.com/support
>
> Co-Author with Joseph Lowery, Dreamweaver MX 2004 Killer Tips:
> http://www.dwkillertips.com
>
> Extension Developer for Cartweaver 2:
> http://www.cartweaver.com/extensionsuite.cfm
>
> Remove the CAPS in my E-mail to reply off list.
>
>
>
| |
| ~Angela, TMM 2004-04-21, 2:53 pm |
| Hello Irvin,
You're welcome. :-)
> I'm sorry it can be used freely (in all sorts of websites and
applications),
> but I also respect your desire to maximize your income. It's your right to
> do so.
Uh oh, I think you may have misunderstood! You can use it freely in a
website if you're a licensed user. You can use it in a dynamic application
even. What you can't do is distribute it as part of another product, be it
free or commercial. Regular use for a client's website is perfectly alright.
The EULA will be updated to make this more clear soon.
> I'll pass on what certainly looks like an interesting product. :-(
Well perhaps with the above clarification you may change your mind. If not,
I understand and am glad to have had the opportunity to clarify.
Thanks for pointing out what wasn't quite clear; it certainly helps to hear
about these things. I'm more than happy to address them.
Thanks,
~Angela
>
> ~Angela, TMM wrote:
>
>
| |
| Al Sparber- PVII 2004-04-21, 2:53 pm |
| ~Angela, TMM wrote:
> Hello Al,
>
> I was not drawing any comparison. If I were, I'd have said something
> like, "Unlike other products/extensions..." :-) I'm not out to
> compare products, and refrain from doing so as a professional
> courtesy.
>
> Though I'm not entirely familiar with all of your products, from what
> I can tell, Toggle-O-Matic Suite has different features/capabilities.
Hey. Whatever you think is fine. I'm easy. But I'd take a close look at
SwapClass :-)
| |
| Al Sparber- PVII 2004-04-21, 2:53 pm |
| ~Angela, TMM wrote:
> Hello Al,
>
>
> I'm really not sure how to interpret this, so I won't. :-)
>
>
> I'm not familiar with your code being distributed as part of another
> package. That is something I would like to avoid, and is why I've made
> provisions in the license agreement for that.
You spun me words around a bit. Here is what I wrote:
"If it makes you feel more secure then go for it. I'm sure you're
familiar with Tree Menu Magic code cropping up in everything from normal
sites to shopping carts and such - so you may have a point. Just hard to
enforce."
Interestingly enough, I discover much of this by following your
Cartweaver newsgroup - where Gerry and I learned of a gentleman offering
Tree Menu Magic "tweaks" to intergrate our menu into your product (last
I heard you had taken over ownership of Cartweaver). It's not a major
issue and we keep our eyes out. It's always part of our routine to check
what other Dreamweaver developers are doing - especially when we are
planning new extensions or products.
--
Al
| |
| Dan Short - TMM 2004-04-21, 2:53 pm |
| > Interestingly enough, I discover much of this by following your
> Cartweaver newsgroup - where Gerry and I learned of a gentleman offering
> Tree Menu Magic "tweaks" to intergrate our menu into your product (last
> I heard you had taken over ownership of Cartweaver). It's not a major
> issue and we keep our eyes out. It's always part of our routine to check
> what other Dreamweaver developers are doing - especially when we are
> planning new extensions or products.
Hi Al,
Your first sentence there reads as if the Cartweaver newsgroup is a hotbed
of piracy and file-sharing, which is most definitley not the case. As far as
I know, the only "tweaks" I'm aware of are from Shawn Armstrong (who by the
way is a woman, just so you know :-), and she's only assisted some people
with getting Project Seven menus working dynamically, but doesn't actually
provide any Proejct Seven code or integration services that I know of. She
actually refers people to Project Seven to buy your products (and judging
from our newsgroup has generated a couple of sales for you ;-). From my
quick look through the Cartweaver newsgroup we've had some PVII customers
helping other PVII customers, but haven't seen anything illicit.
If we ever saw anyone giving away or redistributing anyone's code we would
of course immediately bring it to the author's attention (Project Seven
included of course), and we would remove the posts from our newsgroup. If
you feel there are developers violating your license agreements, I'd
encourage you to actively pursue them, as we would if we were in that
position. If you have knowledge of posts of that nature on the Cartweaver
newsgroup, please send me the details off-list and I'll take a look at the
posts. Unfortunately I don't have the opportunity to read every post on the
Cartweaver newsgroup.
Just to keep things clear, Cartweaver is still owned by Lawrence Cramer,
Angela and I just part of the Cartweaver Development Team
(http://www.cartweaver.com/team.cfm) :-).
--
:: Dan Short :: Take out the witty remark to reply.
Cartweaver: http://www.cartweaver.com/
Bloggin': http://blog.web-shorts.com/
Get it at da store: http://www.dwfaq.com/store/
Team Macromedia DW Volunteer: http://www.macromedia.com/go/team
Design: http://www.web-shorts.com
| |
| Al Sparber- PVII 2004-04-21, 2:53 pm |
| Dan Short - TMM wrote:
> Your first sentence there reads as if the Cartweaver newsgroup is a
> hotbed of piracy and file-sharing, which is most definitley not the
> case. As far as I know, the only "tweaks" I'm aware of are from Shawn
> Armstrong (who by the way is a woman, just so you know :-), and she's
> only assisted some people with getting Project Seven menus working
> dynamically, but doesn't actually provide any Proejct Seven code or
> integration services that I know of. She actually refers people to
> Project Seven to buy your products (and judging from our newsgroup
> has generated a couple of sales for you ;-). From my quick look
> through the Cartweaver newsgroup we've had some PVII customers
> helping other PVII customers, but haven't seen anything illicit.
I didn't say there was anything illicit going on. We were in direct
contact with Shawn 10 minutes after we were apprised of the post. Here
gender is immaterial. However, we don't know that violations did not
occur because we can only guess what happened. The bottom line is that
there is tweaked code, which is the ONLY bloody point I was trying to
make to Angela.
> Just to keep things clear, Cartweaver is still owned by Lawrence
> Cramer, Angela and I just part of the Cartweaver Development Team
> (http://www.cartweaver.com/team.cfm) :-).
I see there have been a few recastings of the info on DWFAQ. Before
tonight, the DWFAQ site listed either you or Angela as Lead Developer
and I've seen copyright statements to that effect. I see now Lawrence is
listed as Founder and Senior Developer. That's good. Gerry and I were
wondering if he'd lost Cartweaver in a poker game :-)
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Dreamweaver Extensions - DesignPacks - Tutorials - Books
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The PVII Newsgroup | news://forums.projectseven.com/pviiwebdev
The CSS Newsgroup | news://forums.projectseven.com/css
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| |
| Dan Short - TMM 2004-04-21, 2:53 pm |
| > I didn't say there was anything illicit going on. We were in direct
> contact with Shawn 10 minutes after we were apprised of the post. Here
> gender is immaterial. However, we don't know that violations did not
> occur because we can only guess what happened. The bottom line is that
> there is tweaked code, which is the ONLY bloody point I was trying to
> make to Angela.
Gotcha :), I'm glad you were in touch with her.
>
> I see there have been a few recastings of the info on DWFAQ. Before
> tonight, the DWFAQ site listed either you or Angela as Lead Developer
> and I've seen copyright statements to that effect. I see now Lawrence is
> listed as Founder and Senior Developer. That's good. Gerry and I were
> wondering if he'd lost Cartweaver in a poker game :-)
I sure hope we didn't get it wrong anywhere, we haven't changed any
Cartweaver information on DWfaq in months. I am in fact the Lead Developer,
but Larry's the boss :). The copyright statements you may be referencing are
for the extension code, which is indeed copyrighted to Angela and used with
permission by Cartweaver. If you've seen anything that lead you to believe
otherwise, please do let me know and I'll make sure that things are clear.
Thanks,
Dan
| |
|
|
| Barbara ONeal 2004-04-21, 2:54 pm |
| Got it! Used it immediately on a form to toggle options and it works great.
Thanks for a great extension.
"~Angela, TMM" <angela@dwfaq.com> wrote in message
news:c5pa07$shm$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Hello Everyone,
>
> Toggle-O-Matic Suite is officially released today! Toggle-O-Matic Suite is
> only available from the DWfaq.com Store for $45. (Only $22.50 for
Cartweaver
> 2 customers who purchase by May 16th. If you've been planning to get
> Cartweaver 2, now is the time to do it! Order Cartweaver 2 first, then
come
> back to DWfaq.com, login, and get your discount automatically. Login
> required to verify special pricing eligibility.)
> http://www.dwfaq.com/Store/detail/?id=DWfaqToggle
>
> If you haven't already clicked the link above, here's just a little bit
> about the Toggle-O-Matic Suite:
>
> The Toggle-O-Matic Suite is comprised of 3 useful behaviors:
Toggle-O-Matic
> Class, Toggle-O-Matic Display and Toggle-O-Matic Visibility. Using a
> combination of Toggle-O-Matic behaviors you can quickly create complex
> menus, FAQs, image galleries and much more, without being locked into any
> predefined CSS or code structures. (Be sure to check out our documentation
> and examples online:
> ttp://www.dwfaq.com/Store/demos/Toggle-O-Matic/docs/ )
>
> With all Toggle-O-Matic behaviors, the second time you perform the action
> (onClick, onMouseOver, etc.) the element returns to its original state.
Use
> them individually, or combined to create a variety of DHTML effects.
>
> You may apply the Toggle-O-Matic behaviors to any element in the <body>,
> including the <body> tag itself. As long as the browser supports the CSS
> property for the element, Toggle-O-Matic can toggle it!
>
> Special thanks to Dan Short for all his help (especially the examples). A
> big thanks to Alex Mariņo for the sketch of the product logo. Thanks to
all
> the beta testers (you know who you are). You guys and gals have been
> fantastic!
>
> If you have any questions about Toggle-O-Matic, please feel free to ask.
>
> Thanks!
> ~Angela
> --
> Angela C. Buraglia, Founder:
> ~FAQs, Tutorials & Resources~ http://www.DreamweaverFAQ.com
> ~My Extensions~ http://www.dwfaq.com/go.asp?ID=AngelaX10
> DWfaq Support Newsgroup: news://support.dwfaq.com/support
>
> Co-Author with Joseph Lowery, Dreamweaver MX 2004 Killer Tips:
> http://www.dwkillertips.com
>
> Extension Developer for Cartweaver 2:
> http://www.cartweaver.com/extensionsuite.cfm
>
> Remove the CAPS in my E-mail to reply off list.
>
>
>
| |
| ~Angela, TMM 2004-04-21, 2:54 pm |
| Hello Irvin,
Yes that is correct, because you've indicated that it is a distributed
product and not just a website. Making navigation for a website's use for a
client is completely allowed.
Regards,
~Angela
--
Angela C. Buraglia, Founder:
~FAQs, Tutorials & Resources~ http://www.DreamweaverFAQ.com
~My Extensions~ http://www.dwfaq.com/go.asp?ID=AngelaX10
DWfaq Support Newsgroup: news://support.dwfaq.com/support
Co-Author with Joseph Lowery, Dreamweaver MX 2004 Killer Tips:
http://www.dwkillertips.com
Extension Developer for Cartweaver 2:
http://www.cartweaver.com/extensionsuite.cfm
Remove the CAPS in my E-mail to reply off list.
"irvin" <noone@none.com> wrote in message
news:c5re4m$832$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> ~Angela, TMM wrote:
>
> I don't think I misunderstood, Angela, but I'll give another try:
>
> If I develop a Coldfusion newsletter application (for argument's sake)
that
> I intend to distribute for free or commercially, I CAN NOT use your
> extension to create a simple navigation menu for that application; I would
> have to ask for your writtten permission.
>
>
> Is my interpretation correct?
>
>
>
> --
> Irvin
> ------------------------
> http://www.pixel69.com
>
>
| |
|
| ~Angela, TMM wrote:
>
> Uh oh, I think you may have misunderstood! You can use it freely in a
> website if you're a licensed user. You can use it in a dynamic
> application even. What you can't do is distribute it as part of
> another product, be it free or commercial. Regular use for a client's
> website is perfectly alright. The EULA will be updated to make this
> more clear soon.
>
I don't think I misunderstood, Angela, but I'll give another try:
If I develop a Coldfusion newsletter application (for argument's sake) that
I intend to distribute for free or commercially, I CAN NOT use your
extension to create a simple navigation menu for that application; I would
have to ask for your writtten permission.
Is my interpretation correct?
--
Irvin
------------------------
http://www.pixel69.com
| |
|
|
| ~Angela, TMM 2004-04-21, 2:54 pm |
| You're welcome, and thanks for letting us add it to the Sites Using
Toggle-O-Matic Barbara.
~Angela
--
Angela C. Buraglia, Founder:
~FAQs, Tutorials & Resources~ http://www.DreamweaverFAQ.com
~My Extensions~ http://www.dwfaq.com/go.asp?ID=AngelaX10
DWfaq Support Newsgroup: news://support.dwfaq.com/support
Co-Author with Joseph Lowery, Dreamweaver MX 2004 Killer Tips:
http://www.dwkillertips.com
Extension Developer for Cartweaver 2:
http://www.cartweaver.com/extensionsuite.cfm
Remove the CAPS in my E-mail to reply off list.
"Barbara ONeal" <barbara@centricweb.com> wrote in message
news:c5rbes$55p$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Got it! Used it immediately on a form to toggle options and it works
great.
> Thanks for a great extension.
>
> "~Angela, TMM" <angela@dwfaq.com> wrote in message
> news:c5pa07$shm$1@forums.macromedia.com...
is[color=darkred]
> Cartweaver
> come
> Toggle-O-Matic
any[color=darkred]
documentation[color=darkred]
action[color=darkred]
> Use
A[color=darkred]
> all
>
>
| |
| sharmstr14 2004-04-21, 2:55 pm |
| Al,
No one from Project Seven has ever contacted me regarding TMM tweaks. As a
long running customers of yours, I have never given code to people who have not
purchased your products. Furterhmore, I have never shared any menu javascript
code (TMM, MM1, MM2) with anyone. What I normally do is have them first
purchase the extention from you, then build their static menu, then send me the
page. From there I show them where to insert the sql queries to turn the menu
into a dynamic cataglog. I dont see how this is any different then the tips
Ken Ford offers to make menus dynamic. From now on, I'll be sure not to send
any more business your way.
-shawn
| |
| Al Sparber- PVII 2004-04-21, 2:55 pm |
| sharmstr14 wrote:
> Al,
> No one from Project Seven has ever contacted me regarding TMM
> tweaks. As a long running customers of yours, I have never given
> code to people who have not purchased your products. Furterhmore, I
> have never shared any menu javascript code (TMM, MM1, MM2) with
> anyone. What I normally do is have them first purchase the extention
> from you, then build their static menu, then send me the page. From
> there I show them where to insert the sql queries to turn the menu
> into a dynamic cataglog. I dont see how this is any different then
> the tips Ken Ford offers to make menus dynamic. From now on, I'll be
> sure not to send any more business your way.
Excuse the error. It was a Shawn Anderson we corresponded with who was
looking to build an ASP.NET version of TMM.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shawn Anderson" <sanderson@censored.com>
To: "'Gerry Jacobsen -PVII'" <admin@projectseven.com>
Sent: Friday, March 19, 2004 4:18 PM
Subject: RE: Question about TreeMenu Magic...
------------------------------------------------------------------
It was right about the time we spotted your posts on the Cartweaver
newsgroup and references to code being e-mailed, etc., etc., etc. Now,
with all due respect, you are not an agent for PVII so there is no way
you can "have" people first purchase a product... moreover, you have no
way of verification unless you ask us... which you haven't. So, people
are sending you rendered markup and you are tweaking it. That belongs on
the PVII newsgroup so at least we have a fighting chance of seeing it
and of verifying purchases. Your logic is flawed.
However, I didn't mention your name... Dan Short did. As I said
yesterday, as far as I know, nothing illicit had been done. But if you
want to play fair, then you should contact us for permission to tweak or
to redeploy our product since you have no way of verifying if the person
you are helping is a licensed user. Ken Ford is part of the PVII team...
there is a big difference.
If you know me, you know I don't take public stands unless I know I'm
right. My point was that Angela's license agreement is written in such a
way as to address this issue of third-party tweaking (among other
things). The problem here has been caused by the reactions of a few
people. There's nothing I can do about that. If you feel your logic is
not flawed and that you shouldn't have asked our permission or apprised
us of what was going on, then by all means don't steer anyone our way.
We'll survive.
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Dreamweaver Extensions - DesignPacks - Tutorials - Books
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The PVII Newsgroup | news://forums.projectseven.com/pviiwebdev
The CSS Newsgroup | news://forums.projectseven.com/css
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| |
| Shawn Armstrong 2004-04-21, 2:56 pm |
| Thanks for that. I really appreciate it.
| |
| Dan Short - TMM 2004-04-21, 2:56 pm |
| > > Though I'm not entirely familiar with all of your products, from what
>
> Hey. Whatever you think is fine. I'm easy. But I'd take a close look at
> SwapClass :-)
For those lurking and watching this thread, I just wanted to make sure it
was clear that the Toggle-O-Matic Suite of extensions and their generated
code in no way resemble ProjectSeven code, even though they may be able to
accomplish similar things.
Al, I'm in no way implying that you suggested that, but I wanted to make
sure no one drew the wrong conclusion, as I'm sure that wasn't your
intention.
--
:: Dan Short :: Take out the witty remark to reply.
Cartweaver: http://www.cartweaver.com/
Bloggin': http://blog.web-shorts.com/
Get it at da store: http://www.dwfaq.com/store/
Team Macromedia DW Volunteer: http://www.macromedia.com/go/team
Design: http://www.web-shorts.com
| |
| ~Angela, TMM 2004-04-21, 2:57 pm |
| Hi Trent,
Like I said to Marja, it is always nice to hear a compliment from a fellow
extension developer. :-)
Thank you so much for the kind words; I truly appreciate hearing them.
Best,
~Angela
"T.Pastrana - 4Level" <aaaa@aaaa.com> wrote in message
news:c5ubgn$8p1$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> That's very nice ~Angela ..
>
> Congratulations on a nice looking set of extensions.
>
> --
> Regards,
> ..Trent Pastrana
> www.fourlevel.com
>
> -----------------------------
>
>
>
> "~Angela, TMM" <angela@dwfaq.com> wrote in message
> news:c5pa07$shm$1@forums.macromedia.com...
is[color=darkred]
> Cartweaver
> come
> Toggle-O-Matic
any[color=darkred]
documentation[color=darkred]
action[color=darkred]
> Use
A[color=darkred]
> all
>
>
| |
| T.Pastrana - 4Level 2004-04-21, 2:58 pm |
| That's very nice ~Angela ..
Congratulations on a nice looking set of extensions.
--
Regards,
...Trent Pastrana
www.fourlevel.com
-----------------------------
"~Angela, TMM" <angela@dwfaq.com> wrote in message
news:c5pa07$shm$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Hello Everyone,
>
> Toggle-O-Matic Suite is officially released today! Toggle-O-Matic Suite is
> only available from the DWfaq.com Store for $45. (Only $22.50 for
Cartweaver
> 2 customers who purchase by May 16th. If you've been planning to get
> Cartweaver 2, now is the time to do it! Order Cartweaver 2 first, then
come
> back to DWfaq.com, login, and get your discount automatically. Login
> required to verify special pricing eligibility.)
> http://www.dwfaq.com/Store/detail/?id=DWfaqToggle
>
> If you haven't already clicked the link above, here's just a little bit
> about the Toggle-O-Matic Suite:
>
> The Toggle-O-Matic Suite is comprised of 3 useful behaviors:
Toggle-O-Matic
> Class, Toggle-O-Matic Display and Toggle-O-Matic Visibility. Using a
> combination of Toggle-O-Matic behaviors you can quickly create complex
> menus, FAQs, image galleries and much more, without being locked into any
> predefined CSS or code structures. (Be sure to check out our documentation
> and examples online:
> ttp://www.dwfaq.com/Store/demos/Toggle-O-Matic/docs/ )
>
> With all Toggle-O-Matic behaviors, the second time you perform the action
> (onClick, onMouseOver, etc.) the element returns to its original state.
Use
> them individually, or combined to create a variety of DHTML effects.
>
> You may apply the Toggle-O-Matic behaviors to any element in the <body>,
> including the <body> tag itself. As long as the browser supports the CSS
> property for the element, Toggle-O-Matic can toggle it!
>
> Special thanks to Dan Short for all his help (especially the examples). A
> big thanks to Alex Mariņo for the sketch of the product logo. Thanks to
all
> the beta testers (you know who you are). You guys and gals have been
> fantastic!
>
> If you have any questions about Toggle-O-Matic, please feel free to ask.
>
> Thanks!
> ~Angela
> --
> Angela C. Buraglia, Founder:
> ~FAQs, Tutorials & Resources~ http://www.DreamweaverFAQ.com
> ~My Extensions~ http://www.dwfaq.com/go.asp?ID=AngelaX10
> DWfaq Support Newsgroup: news://support.dwfaq.com/support
>
> Co-Author with Joseph Lowery, Dreamweaver MX 2004 Killer Tips:
> http://www.dwkillertips.com
>
> Extension Developer for Cartweaver 2:
> http://www.cartweaver.com/extensionsuite.cfm
>
> Remove the CAPS in my E-mail to reply off list.
>
>
>
| |
| Al Sparber- PVII 2004-04-21, 2:58 pm |
| Dan Short - TMM wrote:
> For those lurking and watching this thread, I just wanted to make
> sure it was clear that the Toggle-O-Matic Suite of extensions and
> their generated code in no way resemble ProjectSeven code, even
> though they may be able to accomplish similar things.
>
> Al, I'm in no way implying that you suggested that, but I wanted to
> make sure no one drew the wrong conclusion, as I'm sure that wasn't
> your intention.
I just got wind of this post and wanted to make sure I responded in kind
to clear up any potential misunderstandings. There are no specific
conflicts between Toggle-O-Matic UI elements or generated code and any
of our extensions. Despite the fact that the 3 Toggle-O-Matic behaviors
can accomplish some of the tasks that SwapClass does, the approach is
completely different. And, of course, Toggle-O-Matic's role as a style
property switching utility bears no relation to Tree Menu Magic, which
is a dedicated and automated menu building tool.
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Dreamweaver Extensions - DesignPacks - Tutorials - Books
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The PVII Newsgroup | news://forums.projectseven.com/pviiwebdev
The CSS Newsgroup | news://forums.projectseven.com/css
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| |
| ~Angela, TMM 2004-04-21, 2:59 pm |
| Thank you for clarifying.
~Angela
--
Angela C. Buraglia, Founder:
~FAQs, Tutorials & Resources~ http://www.DreamweaverFAQ.com
~My Extensions~ http://www.dwfaq.com/go.asp?ID=AngelaX10
DWfaq Support Newsgroup: news://support.dwfaq.com/support
Co-Author with Joseph Lowery, Dreamweaver MX 2004 Killer Tips:
http://www.dwkillertips.com
Extension Developer for Cartweaver 2:
http://www.cartweaver.com/extensionsuite.cfm
Remove the CAPS in my E-mail to reply off list.
"Al Sparber- PVII" <adSTRApmin@projectseven.com> wrote in message
news:c5usrr$psu$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Dan Short - TMM wrote:
>
>
> I just got wind of this post and wanted to make sure I responded in kind
> to clear up any potential misunderstandings. There are no specific
> conflicts between Toggle-O-Matic UI elements or generated code and any
> of our extensions. Despite the fact that the 3 Toggle-O-Matic behaviors
> can accomplish some of the tasks that SwapClass does, the approach is
> completely different. And, of course, Toggle-O-Matic's role as a style
> property switching utility bears no relation to Tree Menu Magic, which
> is a dedicated and automated menu building tool.
>
> --
> Al Sparber - PVII
> http://www.projectseven.com
> Dreamweaver Extensions - DesignPacks - Tutorials - Books
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> The PVII Newsgroup | news://forums.projectseven.com/pviiwebdev
> The CSS Newsgroup | news://forums.projectseven.com/css
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
| |
| Lawrence 2004-04-21, 2:59 pm |
| I have been choosing to stay out of this conversation, but now feel it
necessary to clear up or comment on a few points....
1. I still own Cartweaver and am CEO of Application Dynamics Inc. The owner
of Cartweaver.
2. NEVER have or would I allow any copyright infringement or violation to be
posted, or if posted, go undeleted from our support forum. Al's or anybodies
else's. You are welcome to check as often as you like Al.
3. I'm glad Al cleared up the misunderstanding about Shawn Armstrong. Though
I've never had the privilege to meet her personally, I have always found her
to be a helpful, sharing, knowledgeable, and invaluable participant in the
Cartweaver support forum. If you poke around the PVII newsgroup you will
see that she is equally helpful there from time to time.
Finally an opinion about this whole matter.
Back in the day of Pre-MX Dreamweaver there was a thriving community of
extension developers producing a fantastic array of both commercial and free
extensions. It was a wonderful thing.
Then Macromedia, in order to provide a more robust platform for the future,
made the move to rewrite the DW extension API which rendered the majority of
the legacy extensions inoperable. Whether this was a good move or not I'll
leave to the philosophers among up to debate. The real world downside to
this however was that Extension development slowed to a crawl, without near
as many choices for the DWMX Developer.
This is beginning to change. Some extension developers, like Al, hung in
there, and now others are starting to feel that it is safe to re-enter the
water and that MM is less likely to do the same thing again. I think that
we should do what we can to *encourage* this! It makes DWMX a better
platform for all DWMX developers and strengthens DWMXs' value and position
in the market place. Getting into a "yours does the same thing as mine only
mine is free, or better, or has a different license, or.... is detrimental
to reviving the extension development community. I feel the extension
developers should make the information about the pros and cons or features
of their extension available on their respective site and let the
development community decide which is the right way to go.
I find the direction this thread has taken to be very unfortunate.
--
Lawrence Cramer[Member Team Macromedia]
CEO Application Dynamics Inc. - Parent company of Cartweaver.
email: lawrence at cartweaver dot com
Cartweaver - CF Cart Solution for Dreamweaver MX
www.cartweaver.com | news://support.cartweaver.com
==========================================
"Shawn Armstrong" <shawn@no_spam_.coolcraft.com> wrote in message
news:c5sirj$gbe$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Thanks for that. I really appreciate it.
>
>
| |
| Steve Fleischer 2004-04-21, 2:59 pm |
| On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 11:17:48 -0700, Lawrence wrote:
> Getting into a "yours does the same thing as mine only
> mine is free, or better, or has a different license, or.... is detrimental
> to reviving the extension development community. I feel the extension
> developers should make the information about the pros and cons or features
> of their extension available on their respective site and let the
> development community decide which is the right way to go.
Very well said.
--
Steve
www dot flyingtigerwebdesign dot com
Hong Kong, 19/04/2004 12:18:18
| |
| Al Sparber- PVII 2004-04-21, 2:59 pm |
| As Steve posted "very well said". However, allow me the liberty to
expand somewhat on your points. Please see below, inline-
Lawrence wrote:
> 1. I still own Cartweaver and am CEO of Application Dynamics Inc. The
> owner of Cartweaver.
I am very glad to hear that. We've been puzzling over that for a time
and I'm happy that, as a by-product of this thread, it's been cleared
up.
> 2. NEVER have or would I allow any copyright infringement or
> violation to be posted, or if posted, go undeleted from our support
> forum. Al's or anybodies else's. You are welcome to check as often as
> you like Al.
This has not been cleared up. What's been lost in the politics of this
thread is that while I'm sure that Shawn had the best of intentions, it
is impossible for her to know that the persons she was providing
code-based solutions for were actually licensed owners of Tree Menu
Magic. This is neither an arguable nor a defensible issue- but yet we do
not believe that Shawn's intentions were improper. Perhaps the manner in
which she was introduced to this thread had a tad little to do with her
being upset.
If you understand how Tree Menu Magic works (and I'm sure you do), then
you surely understand that integrating it inside a Cold Fusion solution
obviates the need for the UI. This is fine, so long as we know that the
persons involved are all licensed users. This is not a difficult
concept - and possibly by sheer accident, Angela's copyright and license
agreement addresses it, which is why I made the comment in the first
place :-)
> Finally an opinion about this whole matter.
>
> Back in the day of Pre-MX Dreamweaver there was a thriving community
> of extension developers producing a fantastic array of both
> commercial and free extensions. It was a wonderful thing.
That's not exactly the case. We go back to Dreamweaver 2, when
extensions were distributed in zip format, unzipped by the user, and
saved in various configuration folders. Most of the people currently
reading this newsgroup would be hard-pressed to recognize the developers
active then, with the possible exceptions of Massimo Foti and Joe
Lowery. Many of the pioneers have not written an extension in many
years. There were no commercial extensions back then and the Dreamweaver
Community was a much more friendly place - with few cliques, no hidden
agenda to be found, and lots of professional courtesies.
Other than a few esoteric extensions written by large companies, the
first commercial extension of note was our Menu Magic I. It was released
in 2001. There was really no one else for quite some time.
> Then Macromedia, in order to provide a more robust platform for the
> future, made the move to rewrite the DW extension API which rendered
> the majority of the legacy extensions inoperable.
It was actually fairly easy to convert and "package" most extensions
from the old zip days to DW3 MXPs. Converting early MXPs to MX MXPs was
likewise a simple task, so long as the extensions were not overly
reliant on Macromedia libraries. The primary exceptions were Server
Behaviors, which we never got involved with. But that's something
completely different.
> Whether this was a
> good move or not I'll leave to the philosophers among up to debate.
> The real world downside to this however was that Extension
> development slowed to a crawl, without near as many choices for the
> DWMX Developer.
Actually, it could be said that extension development accelerated upon
the release of MX (6) as novices were able to locate all the pieces
necessary to deconstruct and study existing extensions, simply by
installing them - similar to what could be done in the pre-MXP days. The
slow times, for extension development, came between Dreamweaver 4 and
the release of MX. But if you count the flood of simple server
behaviors, there really was no signifcant void.
> This is beginning to change. Some extension developers, like Al, hung
> in there, and now others are starting to feel that it is safe to
> re-enter the water and that MM is less likely to do the same thing
> again.
I wouldn't say we "hung in". We're businesspeople and if sales go up it
makes good sense to continue making stuff to sell :-)
> I think that we should do what we can to *encourage* this!
> It makes DWMX a better platform for all DWMX developers and
> strengthens DWMXs' value and position in the market place.
Speaking in very general terms (and not about Angela), I would have to
say that we find the opposite to be the case. It's too easy now to write
extensions, to "adopt" UI techniques - and sometimes the old courtesies
are not there. I remember writing a prominent developer who had a
"sliding layer" extension to ask if he thought it was OK for us to
release LayerAniMagic. This kind of thing just does not happen anymore
(if it does, we are certainly out of the loop).
> Getting
> into a "yours does the same thing as mine only mine is free, or
> better, or has a different license, or.... is detrimental to reviving
> the extension development community.
The initial query about the copyright and license (by Irvin, I believe)
seemed a legitimate question that any potential customer would want to
consider. Criticism is good. Sometimes it provides insights that might
be good to act on, rather than to defend.
I'll leave the second part of your statement alone - but if you'd like
to contact me offlist, I'll be happy to discuss it. My intention was not
to bash Angela's extensions. I asked a question about a particular
marketing statement and the discussion went on a bit further than it
probably should have in public. But no one can take those words back and
I'm afraid my statements were quite accurate - and will continue to be
accurate a long time after this thread dies :-)
> I feel the extension developers
> should make the information about the pros and cons or features of
> their extension available on their respective site and let the
> development community decide which is the right way to go.
If you meant, "Let the customer or the user decide", I agree. Quality is
sometimes a very subjective concept - but it's something that hasn't
failed us yet.
> I find the direction this thread has taken to be very unfortunate.
Sometimes it's hard to to be objective when friends are involved. Let's
just say I have a knack for asking the tough questions :-)
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Dreamweaver Extensions - DesignPacks - Tutorials - Books
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The PVII Newsgroup | news://forums.projectseven.com/pviiwebdev
The CSS Newsgroup | news://forums.projectseven.com/css
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| |
|
| Lawrence wrote:
> Back in the day of Pre-MX Dreamweaver there was a thriving community
> of extension developers producing a fantastic array of both
> commercial and free extensions. It was a wonderful thing.
> Then Macromedia, in order to provide a more robust platform for the
> future, made the move to rewrite the DW extension API which rendered
> the majority of the legacy extensions inoperable. Whether this was a
> good move or not I'll leave to the philosophers among up to debate.
> The real world downside to this however was that Extension
> development slowed to a crawl, without near as many choices for the
> DWMX Developer.
The above is not very accurate.
The REAL reason extension development has slowed down considerably is the
simple fact that there are not too many gaps to fill anymore. Most of the
basic functionality that extensions provide has been covered already.
The Toggle-matic extension is a perfect example: it basically does the same
that Al's free extension does. Nothing really new there. Now, my point is
not that this extension is bad or good (it even looks interesting to me,
aside from the absurd licensing terms); my point is that extension
developers are hard-pressed to come up with javascript functions (which is
what most of these extensions really provide) that have not been written by
others already.
This process of extension development slowing down might not be immediately
obvious to people new to extensible desktop software, but it has happened
before, Adobe Photoshop and Quark Xpress being the two most famous examples.
Dreamweaver is going through the exact same process.
Growing pains, I guess...
--
Irvin
------------------------
http://www.pixel69.com
| |
|
| Hi Angela,
Just a question regarding the suite - does it come complete with example
pages and images?
Looks great :-)
--
Keep in touch with yourself !!
chin chin
Sinclair
|| Hello Everyone,
||
|| Toggle-O-Matic Suite is officially released today! Toggle-O-Matic
|| Suite is only available from the DWfaq.com Store for $45. (Only
|| $22.50 for Cartweaver 2 customers who purchase by May 16th. If
|| you've been planning to get Cartweaver 2, now is the time to do it!
|| Order Cartweaver 2 first, then come back to DWfaq.com, login, and
|| get your discount automatically. Login required to verify special
|| pricing eligibility.)
|| http://www.dwfaq.com/Store/detail/?id=DWfaqToggle
||
|| If you haven't already clicked the link above, here's just a little
|| bit about the Toggle-O-Matic Suite:
||
|| The Toggle-O-Matic Suite is comprised of 3 useful behaviors:
|| Toggle-O-Matic Class, Toggle-O-Matic Display and Toggle-O-Matic
|| Visibility. Using a combination of Toggle-O-Matic behaviors you can
|| quickly create complex menus, FAQs, image galleries and much more,
|| without being locked into any predefined CSS or code structures. (Be
|| sure to check out our documentation and examples online:
|| ttp://www.dwfaq.com/Store/demos/Toggle-O-Matic/docs/ )
||
|| With all Toggle-O-Matic behaviors, the second time you perform the
|| action (onClick, onMouseOver, etc.) the element returns to its
|| original state. Use them individually, or combined to create a
|| variety of DHTML effects.
||
|| You may apply the Toggle-O-Matic behaviors to any element in the
|| <body>, including the <body> tag itself. As long as the browser
|| supports the CSS property for the element, Toggle-O-Matic can toggle
|| it!
||
|| Special thanks to Dan Short for all his help (especially the
|| examples). A big thanks to Alex Mariņo for the sketch of the product
|| logo. Thanks to all the beta testers (you know who you are). You
|| guys and gals have been fantastic!
||
|| If you have any questions about Toggle-O-Matic, please feel free to
|| ask.
||
|| Thanks!
|| ~Angela
|| --
|| Angela C. Buraglia, Founder:
|| ~FAQs, Tutorials & Resources~ http://www.DreamweaverFAQ.com
|| ~My Extensions~ http://www.dwfaq.com/go.asp?ID=AngelaX10
|| DWfaq Support Newsgroup: news://support.dwfaq.com/support
||
|| Co-Author with Joseph Lowery, Dreamweaver MX 2004 Killer Tips:
|| http://www.dwkillertips.com
||
|| Extension Developer for Cartweaver 2:
|| http://www.cartweaver.com/extensionsuite.cfm
||
|| Remove the CAPS in my E-mail to reply off list.
| |
|
|
| brewster 2004-04-21, 3:02 pm |
| I am wondering if there is a difference between the online store
version of Toggle-o-Matic and the one in the DW MX 2004 Magic book
that i just purchased?
--------------------
Dan Englander
www.danenglander.com
| |
| ~Angela, TMM 2004-04-21, 3:03 pm |
| Hello Dan,
That's a good question! :-) Yes there are many differences between the
extensions in the book and Toggle-O-Matic Suite in the online store. The
following features are *not* contained in the extensions provided within the
book:
***Toggle-O-Matic Suite Features***:
General Features in all Toggle-O-Matic Suite extensions include:
1. The scripts used in Toggle-O-Matic Suite are much smarter, more versatile
and more powerful than that which are provided in the book.
2. The script will only return false if the element you applied the
extension to is set to be a hyperlink. (Optional false return coming soon to
accommodate framesets.)
3. A much more streamlined interface than the extensions in the book.
4. Currently comes with 10 different examples that you may use. (More
examples to come.)
Toggle-O-Matic Display
1. Apply to *any* element in the <body> tag to control any ID'd element.
2. Can toggle between the element's default display property and none. For
example, inline to none, table-row to none, and block to none. You don't
need to think about, "Is this inline by default or block?" The extension
detects the default and acts accordingly.
3. The display property needn't be specified in the CSS if the desired
result is to show the element by default.
Toggle-O-Matic Class:
1. Apply to *any* element in the <body> tag to control any ID'd element.
2. Add new styles or attach style sheets without leaving the dialog
3. Type in your own classes
4. Because you can type in your own classes, you can do multiple class
switching. Example: <p id="myParagraph">Hello World</p> after initiating the
action (onClick for example) essentially the browser renders this: <p
id="myParagraph" class="classOne classTwo">Hello World</p>
There are other little subtle differences between the book's extensions and
Toggle-O-Matic Suite and quite a few more to features are yet to come. I
won't say too much more about it right now, but Toggle-O-Matic Suite has
quite a bit of growth potential. So if you like what you see now, there will
be more to love as we're able to make things available. ;-)
Thank you,
~Angela
--
Angela C. Buraglia, Founder:
~FAQs, Tutorials & Resources~ http://www.DreamweaverFAQ.com
~My Extensions~ http://www.dwfaq.com/go.asp?ID=AngelaX10
DWfaq Support Newsgroup: news://support.dwfaq.com/support
Co-Author with Joseph Lowery, Dreamweaver MX 2004 Killer Tips:
http://www.dwkillertips.com
Extension Developer for Cartweaver 2:
http://www.cartweaver.com/extensionsuite.cfm
Remove the CAPS in my E-mail to reply off list.
"brewster" <dan@pcmactec.com> wrote in message
news:d0d30ff8.0404191022.2268ed08@posting.google.com...
> I am wondering if there is a difference between the online store
> version of Toggle-o-Matic and the one in the DW MX 2004 Magic book
> that i just purchased?
>
> --------------------
> Dan Englander
> www.danenglander.com
| |
| ~Angela, TMM 2004-04-21, 3:03 pm |
| Hello Irvin,
> Most of the basic functionality that extensions provide has been covered
already.
>
> The Toggle-matic extension is a perfect example: it basically does the
same
> that Al's free extension does. Nothing really new there.
While this may be true in some cases, that is definitely not the case here.
Beyond ProjectSeven's products, there are a few other extensions who have
some similar features. We have done the research to see what is out there,
and made sure that we are putting out something different. No existing
extension that we are aware of offers *all* of Toggle-O-Matic's features.
There are a few features in Toggle-O-Matic we have yet to find in any
extension containing similar features.
Al himself has said, "Despite the fact that the 3 Toggle-O-Matic behaviors
can accomplish some of the tasks that SwapClass does, the approach is
completely different." Naturally Al would not point out the features that
Toggle-O-Matic has that his free extensions do not. From a business
perspective it makes no sense for him to point those out, just as it makes
no sense for me to say we don't include feature x,y, or z in our product.
When you market a product you focus on what it has, not what it doesn't. The
JavaScript is entirely different, as well as the features the extension
offers to Dreamweaver users. We have not copied ProjectSeven or anyone
else's extension for that matter, in any way.
I do not wish (and never intended) for this thread to turn into a comparison
of our extensions to others'. As I told Al, I prefer not to market our
products in such a way as to "dig" on existing products. It appears to us
that some of Toggle-O-Matic's features are not as obvious as we originally
thought. We see that now, and hence will be updating the Features list
online to include more detail. This should make it easier for potential
customers to compare for themselves to other products. I can only hope that
the features list will be considered a normal business practice and not
mistaken for implied comparison.
Furthermore, Toggle-O-Matic is a suite that is in progress, with much more
to come from the package. Due to a movie featuring Toggle-O-Matic Display
for Lynda.com, we could not include everything that was planned for the
package in the 7 weeks that we had to get it all done. Not to mention that
we wanted to get some user feedback beyond our beta team before going all
the way with our plans with a package that is already made up of 92 files.
In the past Irvin, you've been supportive of my extension efforts. I thank
you for that. I have no doubt that at some point you will see Toggle-O-Matic
Suite for the powerful and versatile product that it is.
I also thank you for brining up what you feel to be an "absurd" license. I
have already stated here the intent behind it and that it will be updated to
reflect that intent. Despite that I have already addressed the matter, you
continue to post about it in a negative light as if I am not going to stick
to my word.
The distribution portion of the license is in place not only for things like
a CF Newsletter package as you described, but also to prevent HTML editors
such as Dreamweaver, GoLive, HomeSite, FrontPage, and others from including
our code in their software. Imagine that our product was included in an HTML
editor. It would harm our business without a doubt, right? So as you can
see, we should have a say in what is done with our product in respect to
distribution. If someone (or a business) wants to distribute our product,
they only need to ask and we will evaluate it on a case by case basis.
I hope this finally clears things up and makes more sense for you and anyone
else who may be unclear as to why distribution within a package is not
permitted without consent.
Irvin, I have nothing against you and have always treated you with respect
and courtesy. I feel as though you've been fair up until this point. I've
listened to you express your opinions and I have addressed them with
sincerity. I realize that you are not satisfied with the license agreement,
but rest assured that it will be updated as I have previously stated.
At this time, I'd like to kindly request that any licensing concerns be
moved to our DWfaq Support newsgroup: news://support.dwfaq.com/support
Kind regards,
~Angela
--
Angela C. Buraglia, Founder:
~FAQs, Tutorials & Resources~ http://www.DreamweaverFAQ.com
~My Extensions~ http://www.dwfaq.com/go.asp?ID=AngelaX10
DWfaq Support Newsgroup: news://support.dwfaq.com/support
Co-Author with Joseph Lowery, Dreamweaver MX 2004 Killer Tips:
http://www.dwkillertips.com
Extension Developer for Cartweaver 2:
http://www.cartweaver.com/extensionsuite.cfm
Remove the CAPS in my E-mail to reply off list.
| |
| ~Angela, TMM 2004-04-21, 3:03 pm |
| Hello Al,
> The initial query about the copyright and license (by Irvin, I believe)
> seemed a legitimate question that any potential customer would want to
> consider. Criticism is good. Sometimes it provides insights that might
> be good to act on, rather than to defend.
I agree; Irvin questioning the license was not a problem. I clarified the
misconception here, and intend to update the EULA to make it clearer soon.
Some good has come from this thread.
> If you meant, "Let the customer or the user decide", I agree. Quality is
> sometimes a very subjective concept - but it's something that hasn't
> failed us yet.
I agree there. Our products are definitely different enough and people can
certainly discover that fact. It is possible that someone may have a need
for either or both of our products.
>
> Sometimes it's hard to to be objective when friends are involved. Let's
> just say I have a knack for asking the tough questions :-)
I'm sure most anyone can see -- friend, business associate, acquaintance, or
stranger to me -- that this thread has indeed taken an unfortunate direction
and has most certainly veered off topic. As I recall, when threads that you
began turned off topic, you were not pleased about it. So I'm sure you would
agree, that to that end, Lawrence's assessment that this thread has taken
and unfortunate direction is accurate.
While I generally have no problem answering "tough questions" publicly, as
you stated earlier this went far beyond what should have on list. I hope
that we can learn from this experience so that it doesn't happen again in
the future.
~Angela
--
Angela C. Buraglia, Founder:
~FAQs, Tutorials & Resources~ http://www.DreamweaverFAQ.com
~My Extensions~ http://www.dwfaq.com/go.asp?ID=AngelaX10
DWfaq Support Newsgroup: news://support.dwfaq.com/support
Co-Author with Joseph Lowery, Dreamweaver MX 2004 Killer Tips:
http://www.dwkillertips.com
Extension Developer for Cartweaver 2:
http://www.cartweaver.com/extensionsuite.cfm
Remove the CAPS in my E-mail to reply off list.
| |
|
| ~Angela, TMM wrote:
> Hello Irvin,
>
>
> While this may be true in some cases, that is definitely not the case
> here. Beyond ProjectSeven's products, there are a few other
> extensions who have some similar features. We have done the research
> to see what is out there, and made sure that we are putting out
> something different. No existing extension that we are aware of
> offers *all* of Toggle-O-Matic's features. There are a few features
> in Toggle-O-Matic we have yet to find in any extension containing
> similar features.
>
That's fair. I would like to add that the comparison was made (by me) with
good intentions and based on what I saw in your demo.
Perhaps I missed some of the other features.
> We
> have not copied ProjectSeven or anyone else's extension for that
> matter, in any way.
>
I have never implied you copied Project VII's extension. I don't believe
that.
This is what I believe: I believe the functionality offered by your
extension is present in Project VII's own Swap Class. It's implemented
differently, but there are very similar things they accomplish. That, IN NO
WAY, would indicate you plagiarized anyone's code.
> I do not wish (and never intended) for this thread to turn into a
> comparison of our extensions to others'. As I told Al, I prefer not
> to market our products in such a way as to "dig" on existing
> products.
That's not so bad, as people will naturally tend to compare features/prices
when in the presence of products which appear to accomplish the same tasks.
I don't think your extensions suffers in the comparison.
In fact, were it not for the licensing terms, I would have bought it on the
spot.
>It appears to us that some of Toggle-O-Matic's features are
> not as obvious as we originally thought. We see that now, and hence
> will be updating the Features list online to include more detail.
> This should make it easier for potential customers to compare for
> themselves to other products. I can only hope that the features list
> will be considered a normal business practice and not mistaken for
> implied comparison.
>
I wouldn't worry. A good product will withstand any comparison.
> In the past Irvin, you've been supportive of my extension efforts. I
> thank you for that. I have no doubt that at some point you will see
> Toggle-O-Matic Suite for the powerful and versatile product that it
> is.
>
As I said before, I would buy today if I could deal with the licensing
terms.
And yes, I'm 100% behind the efforts of all extension developers. I take
pride in conducting my business in a professional manner and the best way to
acchieve that is by respecting the work of others.
I will continue to support you and your extension work.
> I also thank you for brining up what you feel to be an "absurd"
> license. I have already stated here the intent behind it and that it
> will be updated to reflect that intent. Despite that I have already
> addressed the matter, you continue to post about it in a negative
> light as if I am not going to stick to my word.
>
I'm not posting in a negative light, Angela. As everyone knows, I'll express
my opinion in a clear, unambiguos manner. And the word "absurd" is the only
one that expressed my thought on your licensing terms.
I'm not aware of any changes (because I haven't checked since I made my last
post to this thread), but if yuo have indeed made them, then my opinion will
obviously change.
That's fair to you and it's also fair to me.
> The distribution portion of the license is in place not only for
> things like a CF Newsletter package as you described, but also to
> prevent HTML editors such as Dreamweaver, GoLive, HomeSite,
> FrontPage, and others from including our code in their software.
> Imagine that our product was included in an HTML editor. It would
> harm our business without a doubt, right? So as you can see, we
> should have a say in what is done with our product in respect to
> distribution. If someone (or a business) wants to distribute our
> product, they only need to ask and we will evaluate it on a case by
> case basis.
>
As I said in a previous post, that's your decision. I have not suggested, in
any way, that you change your views. You look at it from your perspective
and I look at it from mine.
> I hope this finally clears things up and makes more sense for you and
> anyone else who may be unclear as to why distribution within a
> package is not permitted without consent.
>
I still disagree, but that's your right and I respect it.
> Irvin, I have nothing against you and have always treated you with
> respect and courtesy. I feel as though you've been fair up until this
> point. I've listened to you express your opinions and I have
> addressed them with sincerity. I realize that you are not satisfied
> with the license agreement, but rest assured that it will be updated
> as I have previously stated.
>
I have given you exactly the same treatment, Angela. That's the least you
deserve.
> At this time, I'd like to kindly request that any licensing concerns
> be moved to our DWfaq Support newsgroup:
> news://support.dwfaq.com/support
>
I have expressed my opinion on this matter and that will be the extent of
it.
I don't think it would be appropriate for me to try to influence your
decision on what to do with the license. That's your business, not mine.
Sincerely,
--
Irvin
------------------------
http://www.pixel69.com
| |
| Al Sparber- PVII 2004-04-21, 3:03 pm |
| ~Angela, TMM wrote:
> Al himself has said, "Despite the fact that the 3 Toggle-O-Matic
> behaviors can accomplish some of the tasks that SwapClass does, the
> approach is completely different."
That's a bit out of context. But I will emphasize that your scripts and
UI are definitely not copied and leave it at that.
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Dreamweaver Extensions - DesignPacks - Tutorials - Books
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The PVII Newsgroup | news://forums.projectseven.com/pviiwebdev
The CSS Newsgroup | news://forums.projectseven.com/css
---------------------------------------------------------------------
| |
|
| Hi Dan/Angela
Great stuff - Looks like a winner and looking forward to the further
development as mentioned by Angela earlier in the thread :-)
I'll be keeping watch as this progess manifests itself - and will no doubt
be a customer at the end of the month :-D
--
Keep in touch with yourself !!
chin chin
Sinclair
|| The MXP comes complete with everything you see here, including the
|| menus and all of the images used for their creation:
||
|| http://www.dwfaq.com/Store/demos/Toggle-O-Matic/docs/
||
|| The documentation can be accessed by pressing any of the Help
|| buttons in the 3 included behaviors.
| |
| Al Sparber- PVII 2004-04-21, 3:03 pm |
| ~Angela, TMM wrote:
> Hello Al,
> I'm sure most anyone can see -- friend, business associate,
> acquaintance, or stranger to me -- that this thread has indeed taken
> an unfortunate direction and has most certainly veered off topic. As
> I recall, when threads that you began turned off topic, you were not
> pleased about it. So I'm sure you would agree, that to that end,
> Lawrence's assessment that this thread has taken and unfortunate
> direction is accurate.
>
> While I generally have no problem answering "tough questions"
> publicly, as you stated earlier this went far beyond what should have
> on list. I hope that we can learn from this experience so that it
> doesn't happen again in the future.
Angela, please take the spin off of this. Sure I've gotten miffed when
threads I've started have gone off topic, but this situation is a bit
different. But I do wish you success even though I have not issued the
standard Community kudo. Not everything you or we make is going to be a
winner. The secret is in objective analysis devoid of politics or
marketing.
Good luck. I mean that.
--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Dreamweaver Extensions - DesignPacks - Tutorials - Books
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The PVII Newsgroup | news://forums.projectseven.com/pviiwebdev
The CSS Newsgroup | | | |