Dreamweaver - Websites for PDA's

Author

Websites for PDA's

bonicelli

2004-03-02, 2:28 pm

My boss would like our website to be easily read on his new Blackberry phone.
Do I need to create a seperate page? I dont mind, becasue he only wants to see
our press releases. What size does this site need to be? Are there some
guidelines that I can follow? Do people have to know to go to a different
webaddress? This is obviously new to me.

Andres

2004-03-02, 8:28 pm

I'm, a heavy PDA user to browse some pages, so:

-Keep them VERY simple.
-Avoid CSS (even CSS 1): most PDA browsers will choke with them: Use simple
HTML (html 3.2 is safer than html 4.0 and so on).
- Don't use extra code: code (and images) is data and data costs on most
wireless connections (if you're using GPRS, you pay for transmited data, not
for connection time!)
- Tables: PDA browsers won't complain if they're simple; however, they put
extra code: Use paragraphs and line breaks as much as you can.
-Resolution: latest PDA's use a 320*320 screen (and older ones will use a
160*160 screen) : keep your sites simple (again). Then, we the users will
love your site.

The less data, the better!!!!

Andres.

"Me fail English? That's unpossible!"
----------------
Dynamic Dependant DropDown Menus
Build up to 5 dependant list/menus in seconds:
http://www.tecnorama.org/go?62
(PHP, ASP and JSP Server Models)
===========
"bonicelli" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:c22ggi$1op$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> My boss would like our website to be easily read on his new Blackberry
phone.
> Do I need to create a seperate page? I dont mind, becasue he only wants
to see
> our press releases. What size does this site need to be? Are there some
> guidelines that I can follow? Do people have to know to go to a different
> webaddress? This is obviously new to me.
>

mzanime.com

2004-03-02, 9:28 pm

>>Avoid CSS (even CSS 1): most PDA browsers will choke with them: Use simple
HTML (html 3.2 is safer than html 4.0 and so on).

This information is in error. CSS improves Accessibility, and was designed to
HELP you hide certain areas of the page which you don't want handhelds to
display, (or even download for that matter) ultimately saving bandwidth, and
not losing any quality for users which view your site by a regular pixel-based
screen.

{ display:none; } allows you to easily hide certain areas of a page inside a
handheld-media stylesheet.

If you noticed what darrel said above, designing a site with CSS-P, it will
look fantastic in a monitor, and load just as good in a handheld. CSS-P sites
are designed with -tons- of CSS code to control structure and layout.

Andres

2004-03-02, 9:29 pm

I don't know if I'm wrong, I'm just telling my personal experience:

I own a T3 with Palmone WebPro3.01 (Novarra):
It current supports (in theory) CSS1.0: I'm not a CSS expert, but I think
that CSS-P is part of CSS2. I can be wrong.
Even Google News are hard to display after proxy filtering (and they use
tables, not CSS-P)

I also use Plucker for offline browsing:
It's one of the most populars offline browsers for Palm and its support for
CSS is, well... none.

If someone can give me some guidelines of a PDA browser with full (and real)
CSS support, I'll be glad to know about it.
--
Andres.

"Me fail English? That's unpossible!"
----------------
Dynamic Dependant DropDown Menus
Build up to 5 dependant list/menus in seconds:
http://www.tecnorama.org/go?62
(PHP, ASP and JSP Server Models)
===========
"mzanime.com" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:c239mk$6oj$1@forums.macromedia.com...
simple[color=darkred]
> HTML (html 3.2 is safer than html 4.0 and so on).
>
> This information is in error. CSS improves Accessibility, and was
designed to
> HELP you hide certain areas of the page which you don't want handhelds to
> display, (or even download for that matter) ultimately saving bandwidth,
and
> not losing any quality for users which view your site by a regular
pixel-based
> screen.
>
> { display:none; } allows you to easily hide certain areas of a page
inside a
> handheld-media stylesheet.
>
> If you noticed what darrel said above, designing a site with CSS-P, it
will
> look fantastic in a monitor, and load just as good in a handheld. CSS-P
sites
> are designed with -tons- of CSS code to control structure and layout.
>

mzanime.com

2004-03-03, 3:28 am

>>I own a T3 with Palmone WebPro3.01 (Novarra):
It current supports (in theory) CSS1.0: I'm not a CSS expert, but I think
that CSS-P is part of CSS2. I can be wrong.

Well you are right about one thing, CSS-P is part of the CSS2 spec, however
the <div> tag has been around long before CSS (in theory) and will cause no
problems to layout if the positioning is not read, it will simply output the
<div>'s in the same order they were used in the structure of the HTML code.
[color=darkred]
offline browsers for Palm and its support for
CSS is, well... none.

And thats fine. CSS was meant to help Accessibility. Whereas, unlike
javascript or applets -- if the user does not have CSS enabled, they will
-still- be able to interpret the text of the page. If you are still not
convinced ask anyone else who is fluent with CSS, they will tell you the
same... that CSS helps web pages with both screen and handheld media.
[color=darkred]
CSS support, I'll be glad to know about it.

The Opera browser is known to have some of the best small-screen rendering
technology. Here are a few links you might want to try. Also I'd suggest
downoading the Opera browser for your PDA.

http://www.opera.com/products/smart.../html/index.dml

http://www.opera.com/products/smartphone/dev/multiple/

http://www.opera.com/products/smartphone/dev/portal/

mzanime.com

2004-03-03, 3:28 am

Oh yeah, I don't know if your familure with Eric Meyer or not, but he's known
by many people as the "CSS guru". He's wrote many books on CSS.

His web site uses about 5 or 6 different CSS files, I dare you to visit it
inside your PDA: http://www.meyerweb.com/

Michael Fesser

2004-03-03, 9:28 am

.oO(mzanime.com)

> This information is in error. CSS improves Accessibility, and was designed to
>HELP you hide certain areas of the page which you don't want handhelds to
>display, [...]
> { display:none; } allows you to easily hide certain areas of a page inside a
>handheld-media stylesheet.

The question is if handheld browsers recognize a handheld-stylesheet ...

Micha

Andres

2004-03-03, 6:28 pm

Short and simple, Micha:
They won't (at least, not the ones I use)

--
Andres.

"Me fail English? That's unpossible!"
----------------
Dynamic Dependant DropDown Menus
Build up to 5 dependant list/menus in seconds:
http://www.tecnorama.org/go?62
(PHP, ASP and JSP Server Models)
===========
"Michael Fesser" <netizen@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:bllb4094agvnqonnlat8s2vekl682p5lue@4ax.com...
> .oO(mzanime.com)
>
designed to[color=darkred]
inside a[color=darkred]
>
> The question is if handheld browsers recognize a handheld-stylesheet ...
>
> Micha

Andres

2004-03-03, 6:29 pm

> the <div> tag has been around long before CSS (in theory) and will cause
no
> problems to layout if the positioning is not read
That is: no CSS-P support at all.So we are back to the beginning:
Don't use CSS: create a section in your site for PDA's and use simple html,
at least you will be able to apply some format.
Curiously, Wired's mobile edition is still using html 3.2 (despite having
updated their site to use CSS-P).
From the sites I visit, Only PCWorld is using CSS... to set font styles.

> The Opera browser is known to have some of the best small-screen
rendering
> technology.
No version for PalmOS or PocketPC's = no version for 90% of PDA's.

--
Andres.

"Me fail English? That's unpossible!"
----------------
Dynamic Dependant DropDown Menus
Build up to 5 dependant list/menus in seconds:
http://www.tecnorama.org/go?62
(PHP, ASP and JSP Server Models)
===========
"mzanime.com" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:c240km$1e9$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> It current supports (in theory) CSS1.0: I'm not a CSS expert, but I think
> that CSS-P is part of CSS2. I can be wrong.
>
> Well you are right about one thing, CSS-P is part of the CSS2 spec,
however
> the <div> tag has been around long before CSS (in theory) and will cause
no
> problems to layout if the positioning is not read, it will simply output
the
> <div>'s in the same order they were used in the structure of the HTML
code.
>
> offline browsers for Palm and its support for
> CSS is, well... none.
>
> And thats fine. CSS was meant to help Accessibility. Whereas, unlike
> javascript or applets -- if the user does not have CSS enabled, they will
> -still- be able to interpret the text of the page. If you are still not
> convinced ask anyone else who is fluent with CSS, they will tell you the
> same... that CSS helps web pages with both screen and handheld media.
>
real)[color=darkred]
> CSS support, I'll be glad to know about it.
>
> The Opera browser is known to have some of the best small-screen
rendering
> technology. Here are a few links you might want to try. Also I'd suggest
> downoading the Opera browser for your PDA.
>
> http://www.opera.com/products/smart.../html/index.dml
>
> http://www.opera.com/products/smartphone/dev/multiple/
>
> http://www.opera.com/products/smartphone/dev/portal/
>
>

mzanime.com

2004-03-03, 6:29 pm

>>Short and simple, Micha: They won't (at least, not the ones I use)

Well thats fine. Thats part of the Magic of CSS. If you decorate with CSS, but
don't have CSS enabled, pages still come out as plain text.

I just want you to realise that CSS isn't the problem. Its complex tables,
unecessary scripts, etc.

mzanime.com

2004-03-03, 7:28 pm

>>That is: no CSS-P support at all.So we are back to the beginning:
Don't use CSS: create a section in your site for PDA's and use simple html,
at least you will be able to apply some format.

Thats not an acceptible answer for me. I'm not going to go back to using
<font> just because some PDA's (which will soon be outdated) as not yet
following W3C standards.
[color=darkred]

Okay, guilty as charged... but its no surprise. Opera has been waring with M$
for a while now. (Microsft ticks me off) I read a article that stated Opera
refused to port their browser to PocketPC, even though it would be easy to do.

http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/...10/20011026.dml

Andres

2004-03-03, 7:28 pm

>because some PDA's (which will soon be outdated)
A PalmOne Tungsten T3, soon outdated????
http://www.palmone.com/us/products/...ds/tungsten-t3/

>I read a article that stated Opera
> refused to port their browser to PocketPC, even though it would be easy to
do
That's their problem, not mine:
I'm not going to switch to one of those smartphones just because Opera
doesn't like Microsoft or PalmOne and they are happy offering their products
to 10% of users.

--
Andres.

"Me fail English? That's unpossible!"
----------------
Dynamic Dependant DropDown Menus
Build up to 5 dependant list/menus in seconds:
http://www.tecnorama.org/go?62
(PHP, ASP and JSP Server Models)
===========
"mzanime.com" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:c25n08$qlg$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Don't use CSS: create a section in your site for PDA's and use simple
html,
> at least you will be able to apply some format.
>
> Thats not an acceptible answer for me. I'm not going to go back to using
> <font> just because some PDA's (which will soon be outdated) as not yet
> following W3C standards.
>
>
> Okay, guilty as charged... but its no surprise. Opera has been waring
with M$
> for a while now. (Microsft ticks me off) I read a article that stated
Opera
> refused to port their browser to PocketPC, even though it would be easy to
do.
>
> http://www.opera.com/pressreleases/...10/20011026.dml
>
>

kevin_tx

2004-03-03, 7:29 pm

bonicelli...

Am not sure if the latest Blackberry phones are flash capable or not (I know
the Sony Clie's are and they use the Palm OS like Blackberry does), but I'd
suggest just using the templates that are included in Flash especially for PDAs
and Phones.

I used Flash to develop a PocketPC application and it worked like a charm.

[L=Click here for the Macromedia Mobile and Devices Developer Center as it is
a great place to start.]http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/devices/[/L]

Other good sources of info incluce Bill Perry over at Macromedia (look him up
in the Mobile and Devices Developer Center at Macromedia) as well as Phil
Torrone over at [L=Flashenabled.com]http://www.flashenabled.com/mobile[/L].
While they primarily deal with all things PocketPC, I'm sure they can point you
in the right direction for Blackberry content creation processes.

Hope this helps -

Kevin
McKinney, TX

Andres

2004-03-03, 7:29 pm

> Well thats fine. Thats part of the Magic of CSS. If you decorate with
CSS, but
> don't have CSS enabled, pages still come out as plain text.

So, your advice is:
Don't use simple html that PDA browsers can manage, use CSS that they won't
understand. You will have a beautiful stylesheet to display plain text.

> I just want you to realise that CSS isn't the problem.
I didn't say that: What I mean is that, nowadays, using CSS for mobile pages
is no good most of the times.
--
Andres.

"Me fail English? That's unpossible!"
----------------
Dynamic Dependant DropDown Menus
Build up to 5 dependant list/menus in seconds:
http://www.tecnorama.org/go?62
(PHP, ASP and JSP Server Models)
===========
"mzanime.com" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:c25mbk$pro$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
> Well thats fine. Thats part of the Magic of CSS. If you decorate with
CSS, but
> don't have CSS enabled, pages still come out as plain text.
>
> I just want you to realise that CSS isn't the problem. Its complex
tables,
> unecessary scripts, etc.
>

Andres

2004-03-03, 7:29 pm

AFAIK, among the PDA's using PalmOS, only Sony handhelds have the Flash
player installed:
Blackberry smartphones won't support Flash, either.

--
Andres.

"Me fail English? That's unpossible!"
----------------
Dynamic Dependant DropDown Menus
Build up to 5 dependant list/menus in seconds:
http://www.tecnorama.org/go?62
(PHP, ASP and JSP Server Models)
===========
"kevin_tx" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
news:c25nro$rk9$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> bonicelli...
>
> Am not sure if the latest Blackberry phones are flash capable or not (I
know
> the Sony Clie's are and they use the Palm OS like Blackberry does), but
I'd
> suggest just using the templates that are included in Flash especially for
PDAs
> and Phones.
>
> I used Flash to develop a PocketPC application and it worked like a
charm.
>
> [L=Click here for the Macromedia Mobile and Devices Developer Center as
it is
> a great place to start.]http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/devices/[/L]
>
> Other good sources of info incluce Bill Perry over at Macromedia (look
him up
> in the Mobile and Devices Developer Center at Macromedia) as well as Phil
> Torrone over at
[L=Flashenabled.com]http://www.flashenabled.com/mobile[/L].
> While they primarily deal with all things PocketPC, I'm sure they can
point you
> in the right direction for Blackberry content creation processes.
>
> Hope this helps -
>
> Kevin
> McKinney, TX
>
>

mzanime.com

2004-03-04, 7:28 pm

>>A PalmOne Tungsten T3, soon outdated????

PDA's are advancing just as fast as computers these days. Within 2/3 years
you'll probably be buying a new one and selling your current one for half the
price.
[color=darkred]
CSS that they won't
understand. You will have a beautiful stylesheet to display plain text.

Wrong on both counts. CSS allows you to keep simple HTML code. Just keep all
of your CSS inside an external CSS file, and give it the media="screen"
attribute so handhelds won't even go near it. (ONLY screen media for PC users)

All the handheld will get, is your basic HTML tags. Which is all it can
handle. Check out this artcle that shows how to spiff up a bulleted list using
CSS, and yet keep the HTML down no hardly no changes whatsoever.
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/taminglists/
[color=darkred]
is no good most of the times.

Well I have never heard of a PDA that choked on a CSS file. If it did, it was
probably because they didn't know how to properly call to, or code it.