Dreamweaver - Impartial advice wanted

Author

Impartial advice wanted

Num-nuts

2004-02-12, 10:29 am

Yes it that old chestnut, I'm now at the point where I have to learn dynamic
sites or shrivel up and die. I realise its probably been asked many times
before, but which technology should I learn? PHP/MySQL, ColdFusion, ASP etc

I know its like asking "Whats the best Album, or whats the best Footie team",
but what I'm after is impartial advice regarding the available technologies. I
have NO prior experience, apart from html / actionscripting and so on, the only
thing I know so far is that PHP is free, and coldfusion isnt, but thats a very
limited basis for a for/against argument

Anyone

keen to learn

2004-02-12, 11:28 am

Hi

I was in a similar position, a dynamic newbie....

From the feedback I got here I opted to start with PHP/Mysql. Its free,
designed for the web, there is loads of online tutorials, and it seems to be
able to do all that I might want to. I have no real programming experience
apart from a bit of actionscript and PHP seems fairly easy to grasp.

I would have liked to have gone down the Coldfusion path but the hosting
costs make it seem it unlikely to ever be something that I could develop
with.

The only downside is the lack of dedicated PHP / dreamweaver tutorials - but
im sure someone will now post me a long list...

I hope this help and good luck

as ever

--
keen to learn @ hotmail.com

"Num-nuts" <cjpickle@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:c0g1ra$smd$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Yes it that old chestnut, I'm now at the point where I have to learn
dynamic
> sites or shrivel up and die. I realise its probably been asked many times
> before, but which technology should I learn? PHP/MySQL, ColdFusion, ASP
etc
>
> I know its like asking "Whats the best Album, or whats the best Footie
team",
> but what I'm after is impartial advice regarding the available
technologies. I
> have NO prior experience, apart from html / actionscripting and so on, the
only
> thing I know so far is that PHP is free, and coldfusion isnt, but thats a
very
> limited basis for a for/against argument
>
> Anyone
>

Murray *TMM*

2004-02-12, 11:28 am

Many hosts provide CF support for no additional charge.

--
Murray --- ICQ 71997575
Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
(If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
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"keen to learn" <keentolearn_deletethis_@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c0g395$1nk$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Hi
>
> I was in a similar position, a dynamic newbie....
>
> From the feedback I got here I opted to start with PHP/Mysql. Its free,
> designed for the web, there is loads of online tutorials, and it seems to
be
> able to do all that I might want to. I have no real programming experience
> apart from a bit of actionscript and PHP seems fairly easy to grasp.
>
> I would have liked to have gone down the Coldfusion path but the hosting
> costs make it seem it unlikely to ever be something that I could develop
> with.
>
> The only downside is the lack of dedicated PHP / dreamweaver tutorials -
but
> im sure someone will now post me a long list...
>
> I hope this help and good luck
>
> as ever
>
>
> --
> keen to learn @ hotmail.com
>
>
> "Num-nuts" <cjpickle@btinternet.com> wrote in message
> news:c0g1ra$smd$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> dynamic
times[color=blue]
> etc
> team",
> technologies. I
the[color=blue]
> only
a[color=blue]
> very
>
>

Mick White

2004-02-12, 11:28 am

It depends.
Mick

Num-nuts wrote:
> Yes it that old chestnut, I'm now at the point where I have to learn dynamic
> sites or shrivel up and die. I realise its probably been asked many times
> before, but which technology should I learn? PHP/MySQL, ColdFusion, ASP etc
>
> I know its like asking "Whats the best Album, or whats the best Footie team",
> but what I'm after is impartial advice regarding the available technologies. I
> have NO prior experience, apart from html / actionscripting and so on, the only
> thing I know so far is that PHP is free, and coldfusion isnt, but thats a very
> limited basis for a for/against argument
>
> Anyone
>

darrel

2004-02-12, 11:29 am

> You're tickling my fancy with PHP/MySQL...

LAMP = linux, apache, MySQL, PHP

the converse is MS = IIS, MSSQL Server, .net, asp

Both are valid, but one is much more expensive ;o)

I know you can run Apache on windows, so I assume you can get PHP and a SQL
server on there too.

It really doesn't matter which one you learn. PHP does seem to have a larger
mass of people working on it in terms of being accessible online via
forums/lists/etc. so you might get more support there.

If you decide to take the MS route, skip ASP and jump right into ASP.NET,
probably learning C# instead of VB.Script.

CF is supposedly quite easy to learn, but is proprietary (being owned by MM)
without the same mass of users as an MS or Open Source option.

-Darrel

Num-nuts

2004-02-12, 11:29 am

You're tickling my fancy with PHP/MySQL... what server setup do I need? Is it Apache only though? Or can it run on Windows/IIS?

Hmm, choices choices..

D. Shane Fowlkes

2004-02-12, 12:30 pm

The only thing I'd like to add is that using ASP is "free" too and I'd
recommend going straight to ASP.NET. All you need for a small or medium
sized site is MS Access (OK, so that isn't free...but it'll work with MySQL
too) and a host who runs IIS 5 or 6 and has the .NET framework installed.
This is pretty common (www.cybersharks.net has always been good to me for
the last 6 yrs) among hosts now. Most good hosts offer IIS and Apache
hosting.

Now if you get into a really powerful web application development which
requires a lot of resources and processing power, then you'll need to use
SQL Server with .NET as your database backend (or Oracle or any other
enterprise scaled R-database). But to be honest, I run a lot of sites and
some of them are quire busy and MS Access has never let me down. I just
upgraded to SQL Server on some of them b/c I could for free.

In short, this isn't an easy question to answer. Cold Fusion is supposed to
be excellent for making dynamic web site with little or no programming
experience. I've always been a user of MS technologies so I've always used
ASP "classic' and now .NET.

I would recommend going with CF or ASP and not PHP...just my 2 cents.

"Num-nuts" <cjpickle@btinternet.com> wrote in message
news:c0g1ra$smd$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> Yes it that old chestnut, I'm now at the point where I have to learn
dynamic
> sites or shrivel up and die. I realise its probably been asked many times
> before, but which technology should I learn? PHP/MySQL, ColdFusion, ASP
etc
>
> I know its like asking "Whats the best Album, or whats the best Footie
team",
> but what I'm after is impartial advice regarding the available
technologies. I
> have NO prior experience, apart from html / actionscripting and so on, the
only
> thing I know so far is that PHP is free, and coldfusion isnt, but thats a
very
> limited basis for a for/against argument
>
> Anyone
>

Num-nuts

2004-02-12, 12:31 pm

It really doesnt matter?...................................ok, what if I do a
'Dice Man', and roll on it

1 or a 3 = Linux/Apache/MySql PH

2 or a 5 =ColdFusio

4 or 6 = MS IIS/ASP.NE

What do you reckon? Would I be making a mistake if I did that

BTW, "Rock N Roll Animal- Lou Reed" best live album ever

David B

2004-02-12, 12:31 pm

darrel wrote:
>
> LAMP = linux, apache, MySQL, PHP
>
> the converse is MS = IIS, MSSQL Server, .net, asp
>
> Both are valid, but one is much more expensive ;o)
>
> I know you can run Apache on windows, so I assume you can get PHP and a SQL
> server on there too.

Yes. I started working with Apache, PHP and Linux on Windows just a
couple weeks ago. (I'm using Windows XP Pro.) I can't make a highly
qualified comparison since I've never worked with ASP or Cold Fusion -
and I'm still a LAMP newbie. But here are some things to consider:

Apache and Linux are, to the best of my knowledge, the most popular
combo on the Internet. I think they're generally considered more stable
than Microsoft, if not more versatile.

How many days a week is Microsoft not under attack from computer viruses
or its own inept programmers? My former ISP was constantly griping about
Microsoft. When some jerk started hacking my website, they said it's
very easy to do with FrontPage websites. That encouraged me to move up
to Dreamweaver and move my websites to Apache/Linux servers.

> It really doesn't matter which one you learn. PHP does seem to have a larger
> mass of people working on it in terms of being accessible online via
> forums/lists/etc. so you might get more support there.

Though the high-tech world is obviously unpredictable, I'll go out on a
limb and predict that open-source is going to kick Microsoft's butt. It
already has the server market cornered, and Linux operating platforms
are becoming increasingly popular. I don't know how popular PHP is
compared to ASP, but I THINK I just read that it's running on some 10
million domains. Although PHP and mysql can both be run on Windows
platforms, they're open-source.

Many people consider Mozilla and Firebird/Firefox better browsers than
Microsoft's Internet Explorer. Another open-source venture that's align
with W3C standards is SVG - scaleable vector graphics.

SVG hasn't come into its own yet, but Adobe supports it, and it will
presumably be better matched to PHP than Microsoft's ASP. I believe
Microsoft is working on something comparable to SVG, once again
following its own unilateral path.

Again, I'm new to a lot of this stuff, and some of the details I've
presented may be incorrect. But I think it's generally better to go with
the flow than work against the grain - which is the typical Microsoft
strategy. That's why so many Microsoft products blow up in Bill Gates' face.

darrel

2004-02-12, 1:28 pm

> What do you reckon? Would I be making a mistake if I did that

Well, you're not giving us any more information.

What server do you host on?

What technology do your clients use?

Do you have friends that program in any of those languages?

Do you prefer to pay for software with nicer interfaces, or do you prefer
open source solutions that take a bit more work to set up?

Etc.

If there truly aren't any variables involved, then, no, it really doesn't
matter.

-Darrel

darrel

2004-02-12, 1:29 pm

> The only thing I'd like to add is that using ASP is "free" too

IIS isn't free.

> and I'd
> recommend going straight to ASP.NET.

I agree. The differences between ASP and ASP.NET are significant and
confusing to learn both at once (which I'm doing...ugh!)

If ASP.NET, go with C#, as that seems to be the language of choice these
days in the MS camp.

> Most good hosts offer IIS and Apache
> hosting.

Very true.

> I would recommend going with CF or ASP and not PHP...just my 2 cents.

Why? (just curious)

Also, let's not forget J2EE ;o)

-Darrel

Murray *TMM*

2004-02-12, 1:29 pm

darrel:

> IIS isn't free.

Huh?

--
Murray --- ICQ 71997575
Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
(If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
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"darrel" <notreal@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c0gaf4$d5r$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
> IIS isn't free.
>
>
> I agree. The differences between ASP and ASP.NET are significant and
> confusing to learn both at once (which I'm doing...ugh!)
>
> If ASP.NET, go with C#, as that seems to be the language of choice these
> days in the MS camp.
>
>
> Very true.
>
>
> Why? (just curious)
>
> Also, let's not forget J2EE ;o)
>
> -Darrel
>
>

darrel

2004-02-12, 1:29 pm

> > IIS isn't free.
>
> Huh?

IIS isn't free. You need to pay for it. Or, rather, you need to pay for
Windows to get it.

As oppossed to Apache, which is free.

-Darrel

Michael Fesser

2004-02-12, 1:29 pm

Num-nuts wrote:

>You're tickling my fancy with PHP/MySQL... what server setup do I need?
>Is it Apache only though? Or can it run on Windows/IIS?

Whatever you want:

1) Win, Apache, MySQL, PHP (also known as 'WAMP')
2) Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP (also known as 'LAMP')
3) Win, IIS, MySQL, PHP (hmm, WIMP? *g*)
4) ...

I prefer the Apache webserver (runs on a Linux box here), it's free,
reliable and has lots of nice and useful extensions (real killers like
mod_rewrite for example).

Micha

Les Matthews

2004-02-12, 1:29 pm

Assuming your not running your own web server, IIS web hosting costs about
the same as Apache web hosting.

"darrel" <notreal@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c0gble$f3d$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
> IIS isn't free. You need to pay for it. Or, rather, you need to pay for
> Windows to get it.
>
> As oppossed to Apache, which is free.
>
> -Darrel
>
>

Murray *TMM*

2004-02-12, 1:29 pm

That seems a little convoluted, but OK.

I mean, they have already sunk the cost for Windows, right? Then IIS is
included.

Or are you thinking about the person using a non-Windows OS? But then...

Well, you see my point.

--
Murray --- ICQ 71997575
Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
(If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
==================
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"darrel" <notreal@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c0gble$f3d$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
> IIS isn't free. You need to pay for it. Or, rather, you need to pay for
> Windows to get it.
>
> As oppossed to Apache, which is free.
>
> -Darrel
>
>

D. Shane Fowlkes

2004-02-12, 3:30 pm

IIS comes with WinXP Pro and Server. If you have WinXP Home, then
....well...shame on you. =)

(This may be tough to explain)
I wouldn't recommend PHP anymore that I would recommend Linux or Java. Not
to fault the products and in some ways, they might even be superior, but
there's no business model behind these technologies. There's no profit to
be made and support for these technologies relies solely on all the
tech&gear heads around the world.

MM and MS are pushing the hell out of their technologies because they want
market dominance and they want to drive their profit margins up. They're
constantly pushing the envelop with CF and ASP b/c there's money to be made.
The business drives the technology, not the reverse.

Therefore, I'd rather invest my time in a technology that's going to be
around and rapidly advance. I don't have time to constantly collaborate
with other programmers to discuss object model design and other techy stuff
with the "release of the day" (literally). Linux and PHP, IMHO, are
.....concepts.... that are constantly evolving and changing and maybe for the
better, but in the end...who's in charge?

In short and to simplify it, I wouldn't recommend investing time in an
obscure and loosely support technology - i.e. open architecture and open
source (Java, PHP, Linux, Perl, etc).

That's just me. I know that ASP and CF will be around for a long time and
there's no licensing of the technology issues there.

Make any sense at all? I'm sure I'll get flamed for that but I don't care.

=)

"darrel" <notreal@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c0gaf4$d5r$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
> IIS isn't free.
>
>
> I agree. The differences between ASP and ASP.NET are significant and
> confusing to learn both at once (which I'm doing...ugh!)
>
> If ASP.NET, go with C#, as that seems to be the language of choice these
> days in the MS camp.
>
>
> Very true.
>
>
> Why? (just curious)
>
> Also, let's not forget J2EE ;o)
>
> -Darrel
>
>

Blair Rasmussen

2004-02-12, 3:30 pm

lightning bold heard...

--
--
Regards,

Blair Rasmussen
Oshima Web Solutions
------------------------------
http://www.oshima.ca
http://www.albertarowing.ca
------------------------------

"D. Shane Fowlkes" <shanefowlkes@h-o-t-m-a-i-l.com> wrote in message
news:c0ggpf$ncm$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> IIS comes with WinXP Pro and Server. If you have WinXP Home, then
> ...well...shame on you. =)
>
> (This may be tough to explain)
> I wouldn't recommend PHP anymore that I would recommend Linux or Java. Not
> to fault the products and in some ways, they might even be superior, but
> there's no business model behind these technologies. There's no profit to
> be made and support for these technologies relies solely on all the
> tech&gear heads around the world.
>
> MM and MS are pushing the hell out of their technologies because they want
> market dominance and they want to drive their profit margins up. They're
> constantly pushing the envelop with CF and ASP b/c there's money to be
made.
> The business drives the technology, not the reverse.
>
> Therefore, I'd rather invest my time in a technology that's going to be
> around and rapidly advance. I don't have time to constantly collaborate
> with other programmers to discuss object model design and other techy
stuff
> with the "release of the day" (literally). Linux and PHP, IMHO, are
> ....concepts.... that are constantly evolving and changing and maybe for
the
> better, but in the end...who's in charge?
>
> In short and to simplify it, I wouldn't recommend investing time in an
> obscure and loosely support technology - i.e. open architecture and open
> source (Java, PHP, Linux, Perl, etc).
>
> That's just me. I know that ASP and CF will be around for a long time and
> there's no licensing of the technology issues there.
>
> Make any sense at all? I'm sure I'll get flamed for that but I don't
care.
>
> =)
>
>
>
> "darrel" <notreal@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:c0gaf4$d5r$1@forums.macromedia.com...
>
>

D. Shane Fowlkes

2004-02-12, 3:30 pm

I guess I'm a WISA developer. Win, IIS, SQLServer, ASP. Not very catchy
though. I like "WIMP" better.

=)

"Michael Fesser" <netizen@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:pmcn20h3nmbdh7rf01kv4131lgu184k5p5@4ax.com...
> Num-nuts wrote:
>
>
> Whatever you want:
>
> 1) Win, Apache, MySQL, PHP (also known as 'WAMP')
> 2) Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP (also known as 'LAMP')
> 3) Win, IIS, MySQL, PHP (hmm, WIMP? *g*)
> 4) ...
>
> I prefer the Apache webserver (runs on a Linux box here), it's free,
> reliable and has lots of nice and useful extensions (real killers like
> mod_rewrite for example).
>
> Micha

Joe Makowiec

2004-02-12, 3:30 pm

On Thu 12 Feb 2004 10:12:58a, Num-nuts wrote in macromedia.dreamweaver:

> You're tickling my fancy with PHP/MySQL... what server setup do I
> need? Is it Apache only though? Or can it run on Windows/IIS?

Both. http://www.php.net/manual/en/install.iis.php

The php.net website is a wonder of easily accessible, readily
understandable information.

darrel

2004-02-12, 3:36 pm

> I wouldn't recommend PHP anymore that I would recommend Linux or Java. Not
> to fault the products and in some ways, they might even be superior, but
> there's no business model behind these technologies.
> There's no profit to
> be made and support for these technologies relies solely on all the
> tech&gear heads around the world.

I'd call that the very reason TOO embrace open source.

> MM and MS are pushing the hell out of their technologies because they want
> market dominance and they want to drive their profit margins up.

Neither market dominance or higher profit margines equate to better
products. Quite often, they equate to lesser products (not always, of
course).

> Therefore, I'd rather invest my time in a technology that's going to be
> around and rapidly advance.

MM and MS have been rather stagnant when compared to most of the open source
options.

> In short and to simplify it, I wouldn't recommend investing time in an
> obscure and loosely support technology - i.e. open architecture and open
> source (Java, PHP, Linux, Perl, etc).

None of those are obscure and all of them can be supported if you want to
pay for support.

> That's just me. I know that ASP and CF will be around for a long time and
> there's no licensing of the technology issues there.

Er...actually, there are licensing issues with ASP and CF. You need to
license a product to run them. Especially if we start talking about .NET and
MS SQL.

Not that licensing is bad, of course, I just think your logic is a bit
lopsided.

> Make any sense at all? I'm sure I'll get flamed for that but I don't
care.

Hey, that's what newsgroups are for, right? ;o)

For the record, I work at an all MS shop right now.

-Darrel

David B

2004-02-12, 3:36 pm

D. Shane Fowlkes wrote:

> I wouldn't recommend PHP anymore that I would recommend Linux or Java. Not
> to fault the products and in some ways, they might even be superior, but
> there's no business model behind these technologies. There's no profit to
> be made and support for these technologies relies solely on all the
> tech&gear heads around the world.

I'm sorry to hear there's no profit to be made, because I was hoping to
profit from MySQL/PHP one of these days!

All seriousness aside, I don't know know what the relative costs are,
but Zend Studio - the most popular PHP scripting program - costs about
$250. I've downloaded trial versions of a couple other MySQL/PHP
programs, each of which cost money for professional support. There
appears to be quite a variety of software programs that target this niche.

> MM and MS are pushing the hell out of their technologies because they want
> market dominance and they want to drive their profit margins up.

Microsoft, in particular, likes to monopolize the market. Thus, it tends
to lead people down blind alleys.

They're
> constantly pushing the envelop with CF and ASP b/c there's money to be made.
> The business drives the technology, not the reverse.
>
> Therefore, I'd rather invest my time in a technology that's going to be
> around and rapidly advance. I don't have time to constantly collaborate
> with other programmers to discuss object model design and other techy stuff
> with the "release of the day" (literally). Linux and PHP, IMHO, are
> ....concepts.... that are constantly evolving and changing and maybe for the
> better, but in the end...who's in charge?

That's a good point. I'm becoming frustrated with the
Mozilla-Firebird/Firefox series. The sheer number of Linux distros is
also frustrating. I aso have some suspicions that Microsoft has
infiltrated the open-source community (to a greater extent than is
generally realized) and maybe mucking things up, but that's another story.

But mysql is obviously stable enough for Microsoft, and businesses
around the world are abandoning Microsoft in favor of Linux. I'll have
to do some research to determine the relative popularity of PHP versus
ASP. But I know that PHP 5 is due to be released soon.

> In short and to simplify it, I wouldn't recommend investing time in an
> obscure and loosely support technology - i.e. open architecture and open
> source (Java, PHP, Linux, Perl, etc).
>
> That's just me. I know that ASP and CF will be around for a long time and
> there's no licensing of the technology issues there.

I suspect all three will be around for a long time. Which one will be
around the longest is hard to say, but I'd put my money on open-source.

To put it another way, I think the empire that is most likely to face a
catastrophic collapse is Microsoft. I'm not saying that's highly likely
in the near future. But one has to wonder how long Microsoft will hold
up under a steady rain of computer viruses, hacker attacks, lawsuits and
public disgust. The European Union and Red Flag Linux might possibly be
more than Mr. Gates bargained for.

Still another thing to consider is Apple. I THINK Mac's are becoming a
little more popular for some of the above reasons. In addition, some web
designers like to own both a PC and a Mac so they can preview their
websites on both platforms. And I'm assuming that Mac heads favor PHP
over both ASP and Cold Fusion. In fact, I'm not sure if ASP or Cold
Fusion are compatible with Mac. (Actually, Cold Fusion probably is since
you can buy Dreamweaver for Mac.)

Don't be afraid to tell me if I'm wrong, because I want to get a better
handle on all of this. However, I am pretty much committed to the holy
trinity - Apache/MySQL/PHP - at this point.

darrel

2004-02-12, 3:37 pm

> That seems a little convoluted, but OK.

I think you're making this more complicated than it is ;o)

There's two camps...commercial software, and Open Source software. In terms
of software, LAMP is free. MS isn't.

Yes, if you're outourcing the hosting, than this probably doesn't matter
much.

-Darrel

D. Shane Fowlkes

2004-02-12, 3:41 pm

Good reply, and hey, no punches thrown. Imagine that...some maturity. =)

I myself, would like to see some kind of market analysis on who has left MS
for Linux, and who has left Linux and Novell for MS as well. I personally
don't think MS is losing ground but gaining it. I also think that MS is
subjected to some many attacks and viruses simply b/c of their market
dominance in the PC market. If it were 90% macs and 10% PCs out there, we'd
be hearing of a lot more Mac attacks (hey...that sounds catchy).

It's a media feeding frenzy and makes for good fodder when a new MS -based
virus comes out. Recently, I heard of a really nasty Apple virus about a
month ago but of course, it got very little media coverage. Reason is, why
give it a lot of hype when your story is only relevant to 10% of the PC
market. I think Macs have made some ground in the past few years in the
home computer industry but nothing significant in the business world.

I know of two extremely large "entities" in my area where they're moving to
MS and .NET. One is leaving Novell and the other is leaving their Unix for
MS networks. I also know of another small company who's leaving their
network of about 20 Macs for a MS network.

"Microsoft, in particular, likes to monopolize the market." And MM
doesn't?? And Apple isn't trying to?? =)

"I'm sorry to hear there's no profit to be made, because I was hoping to
profit from MySQL/PHP one of these days.." You might profit from using the
technologies and tools but you can't profit from selling them. You can't
profit from supporting them (directly).

Enough of my hot air...getting off soap box now.

=)

"David B" <david_blomstrom@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0gibq$plg$1@forums.macromedia.com...
> D. Shane Fowlkes wrote:
>
Not[color=blue]
to[color=blue]
>
> I'm sorry to hear there's no profit to be made, because I was hoping to
> profit from MySQL/PHP one of these days!
>
> All seriousness aside, I don't know know what the relative costs are,
> but Zend Studio - the most popular PHP scripting program - costs about
> $250. I've downloaded trial versions of a couple other MySQL/PHP
> programs, each of which cost money for professional support. There
> appears to be quite a variety of software programs that target this niche.
>
want[color=blue]
>
> Microsoft, in particular, likes to monopolize the market. Thus, it tends
> to lead people down blind alleys.
>
> They're
made.[color=blue]
stuff[color=blue]
the[color=blue]
>
> That's a good point. I'm becoming frustrated with the
> Mozilla-Firebird/Firefox series. The sheer number of Linux distros is
> also frustrating. I aso have some suspicions that Microsoft has
> infiltrated the open-source community (to a greater extent than is
> generally realized) and maybe mucking things up, but that's another story.
>
> But mysql is obviously stable enough for Microsoft, and businesses
> around the world are abandoning Microsoft in favor of Linux. I'll have
> to do some research to determine the relative popularity of PHP versus
> ASP. But I know that PHP 5 is due to be released soon.
>
and[color=blue]
>
> I suspect all three will be around for a long time. Which one will be
> around the longest is hard to say, but I'd put my money on open-source.
>
> To put it another way, I think the empire that is most likely to face a
> catastrophic collapse is Microsoft. I'm not saying that's highly likely
> in the near future. But one has to wonder how long Microsoft will hold
> up under a steady rain of computer viruses, hacker attacks, lawsuits and
> public disgust. The European Union and Red Flag Linux might possibly be
> more than Mr. Gates bargained for.
>
> Still another thing to consider is Apple. I THINK Mac's are becoming a
> little more popular for some of the above reasons. In addition, some web
> designers like to own both a PC and a Mac so they can preview their
> websites on both platforms. And I'm assuming that Mac heads favor PHP
> over both ASP and Cold Fusion. In fact, I'm not sure if ASP or Cold
> Fusion are compatible with Mac. (Actually, Cold Fusion probably is since
> you can buy Dreamweaver for Mac.)
>
> Don't be afraid to tell me if I'm wrong, because I want to get a better
> handle on all of this. However, I am pretty much committed to the holy
> trinity - Apache/MySQL/PHP - at this point.
>

Michael Fesser

2004-02-12, 3:41 pm

D. Shane Fowlkes wrote:

>(This may be tough to explain)
>I wouldn't recommend PHP anymore that I would recommend Linux or Java. Not
>to fault the products and in some ways, they might even be superior, but
>there's no business model behind these technologies.

Huh? Besides the fact, that there are lots of companies making money
with Open Source software or maintenance agreements - why does the
"business model" behind it matters? Who really cares what technique you
use to power your web applications? Sorry, I can't follow you on that.

>There's no profit to be made

You've lost me again ...

>and support for these technologies relies solely on all the
>tech&gear heads around the world.

Which are quite a few million ... besides the professionals.

>MM and MS are pushing the hell out of their technologies

They're pushing the hell of money out of their customers.

>because they want
>market dominance and they want to drive their profit margins up.

Money rulz ... but I don't consider this the best thing.

>Therefore, I'd rather invest my time in a technology that's going to be
>around and rapidly advance.

Possible with PHP.

>I don't have time to constantly collaborate
>with other programmers to discuss object model design and other techy stuff
>with the "release of the day" (literally).

You always have to learn new things and discuss problems with other
people, it doesn't really matter if its PHP, ASP or whatever.

>Linux and PHP, IMHO, are ....concepts....

For 'concepts' they're damn real and working damn reliable. What's the
software that powers most web machines? No, it's no MS-stuff ...

Remember: It wasn't MS or MM who invented the web as we know it today.
There was a peaceful time without all those marketing idiots fooling
around, telling everyone "time of sucking free content is over" and crap
like that. The web doesn't need them, but they need the web! If all
servers powered by 'concepts' would be shut down in a second - what
would be left?

>that are constantly evolving and changing and maybe for the
>better, but in the end...who's in charge?

I don't use the technique with the most 'financial power' behind it, but
the one that fits my needs and my requirements the best. In many cases
this is Open Source software (just look at all the things that Apache
can do, what IIS cannot).

>In short and to simplify it, I wouldn't recommend investing time in an
>obscure and loosely support technology - i.e. open architecture and open
>source (Java, PHP, Linux, Perl, etc).

Some people might consider you a troll for that. And even I think that
you don't really know what you're talking about, at least it sounds like
that to me.

>That's just me. I know that ASP and CF will be around for a long time

So will Open Source.

>Make any sense at all?

Not really.

>I'm sure I'll get flamed for that but I don't care.

I knew that.

Micha

D. Shane Fowlkes

2004-02-12, 3:41 pm

> Neither market dominance or higher profit margines equate to better
> products. Quite often, they equate to lesser products (not always, of
> course).
Never said they did.

> MM and MS have been rather stagnant when compared to most of the open
source options.

Maybe. Maybe not. But do you get paid to tinker with Open Source stuff or
get paid to produce? I get paid to produce and don't simply have the time
to learn about the latest release, add-on, or module. I also like to think
that .NET is far from stagnant.

>
> Er...actually, there are licensing issues with ASP and CF. You need to
> license a product to run them. Especially if we start talking about .NET
and
> MS SQL.
True of course. What I was trying to imply is that you have some serious
corporate resources backing it up. If I have trouble with ASP or CF, I can
call MS or MM or go to their robust manuals, documents, online libraries,
and so on. If I have a question or an issue with "Bob's release of Linux"
that's free on the web, who and where do you get support from aside from NGs
and web forums? I think I was just saying I like the fact that CF and ASP
are licensed...that's all.

Of course, my opinions are VERY biased because aside from some main framing
database development years ago, I've always been a MS-man....for better or
worse.

=)

Michael Fesser

2004-02-12, 4:29 pm

D. Shane Fowlkes wrote:

>I also think that MS is
>subjected to some many attacks and viruses simply b/c of their market
>dominance in the PC market.

Might be, but another reason is that it's so damn easy to infiltrate
Windows systems. IE and OE are unsecure in their default configuration
and IE is heavily interweaved with the OS - a capital mistake by design.

A virus can do things on a Windows box that are impossible on other
systems.

Micha

Joe Makowiec

2004-02-12, 4:29 pm

On Thu 12 Feb 2004 02:14:23p, D. Shane Fowlkes wrote in
macromedia.dreamweaver:

> I myself, would like to see some kind of market analysis on who has
> left MS for Linux, and who has left Linux and Novell for MS as well.
> I personally don't think MS is losing ground but gaining it. I also

According to Netcraft's server survey, Apache is slowly but steadily
picking up market share:

http://news.netcraft.com/archives/w...ver_survey.html

> think that MS is subjected to some many attacks and viruses simply b/c
> of their market dominance in the PC market.

Yup. If you want an effect, you go for the biggest target.

darrel

2004-02-12, 4:29 pm

> Maybe. Maybe not. But do you get paid to tinker with Open Source stuff
or
> get paid to produce?

I get paid to fix MS products. ;o)

> I get paid to produce and don't simply have the time
> to learn about the latest release, add-on, or module. I also like to
think
> that .NET is far from stagnant.

..NET has a ways to go in some areas. It's a good start.

The 'latest release, add-on and module' issue is applicable to both open
source and commercial products. In either case, except for security issues,
you don't need to always have the latest release/module or add-on to get
productive work done.

> True of course. What I was trying to imply is that you have some serious
> corporate resources backing it up. If I have trouble with ASP or CF, I
can
> call MS or MM or go to their robust manuals, documents, online libraries,
> and so on. If I have a question or an issue with "Bob's release of Linux"
> that's free on the web, who and where do you get support from aside from
NGs
> and web forums?

Don't buy Bob's release of linux. Buy Redhat's and get full support.

As for coding questions, I agree. You will find better written documentation
(not always, but usually) in commercial apps. That said, I find that you get
better peer-to-peer support with Open Source apps.

Pros/cons to both.

> Of course, my opinions are VERY biased because aside from some main
framing
> database development years ago, I've always been a MS-man....for better or
> worse.

True. And there's nothing wrong with being an MS person. MS has some good
technologies. It's important to not associate the product with the company,
though. This is true on both sides of the opensource vs. commercial fence.

-Darrel

D. Shane Fowlkes

2004-02-12, 4:29 pm

You sound like you need a looong vacation. It's just so cute when people
get aggressive on these NGs. Darn - and to think I was getting paid a lot of
money to know what I was doing too. Hmmm.... the Feds thought my expertise
was good enough for them. Shoot.

The poster simply asked for input and I voiced my opinion - I prefer
commercial products and stated why.

Cheers.

"Michael Fesser" <netizen@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:9ejn2052lcfv14383ojpueo6ju2r6dhijs@4ax.com...
> D. Shane Fowlkes wrote:
>
Not[color=blue]
>
> Huh? Besides the fact, that there are lots of companies making money
> with Open Source software or maintenance agreements - why does the
> "business model" behind it matters? Who really cares what technique you
> use to power your web applications? Sorry, I can't follow you on that.
>
>
> You've lost me again ...
>
>
> Which are quite a few million ... besides the professionals.
>
>
> They're pushing the hell of money out of their customers.
>
>
> Money rulz ... but I don't consider this the best thing.
>
>
> Possible with PHP.
>
stuff[color=blue]
>
> You always have to learn new things and discuss problems with other
> people, it doesn't really matter if its PHP, ASP or whatever.
>
>
> For 'concepts' they're damn real and working damn reliable. What's the
> software that powers most web machines? No, it's no MS-stuff ...
>
> Remember: It wasn't MS or MM who invented the web as we know it today.
> There was a peaceful time without all those marketing idiots fooling
> around, telling everyone "time of sucking free content is over" and crap
> like that. The web doesn't need them, but they need the web! If all
> servers powered by 'concepts' would be shut down in a second - what
> would be left?
>
>
> I don't use the technique with the most 'financial power' behind it, but
> the one that fits my needs and my requirements the best. In many cases
> this is Open Source software (just look at all the things that Apache
> can do, what IIS cannot).
>
>
> Some people might consider you a troll for that. And even I think that
> you don't really know what you're talking about, at least it sounds like
> that to me.
>
>
> So will Open Source.
>
>
> Not really.
>
>
> I knew that.
>
> Micha

Michael Fesser

2004-02-12, 4:29 pm

D. Shane Fowlkes wrote:

>You sound like you need a looong vacation.

Good idea.

>It's just so cute when people
>get aggressive on these NGs.

This wasn't really aggressive.

>The poster simply asked for input and I voiced my opinion - I prefer
>commercial products and stated why.

But with poor arguments.

EOT
Micha

D. Shane Fowlkes

2004-02-12, 4:29 pm

> I get paid to fix MS products. ;o)

LOL. A lot of my network friends can same the same thing. = )

darrel

2004-02-12, 4:29 pm

> The poster simply asked for input and I voiced my opinion - I prefer
> commercial products and stated why.

To be fair, there was a bit of FUD in your reasoning. FUD is what enables MS
to sell product fairly easily to middle management. Since we all hate middle
management, the defensiveness is somewhat justified. ;o)

-Darrel

David B

2004-02-12, 4:29 pm

Michael Fesser wrote:

> Remember: It wasn't MS or MM who invented the web as we know it today.
> There was a peaceful time without all those marketing idiots fooling
> around, telling everyone "time of sucking free content is over" and crap
> like that. The web doesn't need them, but they need the web! If all
> servers powered by 'concepts' would be shut down in a second - what
> would be left?

Wow, there seems to be more anti-Microsoft sentiment here than on
Democratic Underground! I've been trying to publicize Microsoft during
Campaign 2004, but I'm amazed at how many people who rant about
corporate corruption rally to Bill Gates' defense (generally citing his
phony "philanthropy").

But I finally found a way to shut them up. I just ask them if they'd
feel comfortable if all the voting machines were operating on Windows,
and Microsoft was hired to supervise the election. Dead silence. :)

Murray *TMM*

2004-02-12, 4:29 pm

Micha:

Doubtless that's true, but the implication is not. The statement implies
that other systems are therefore less susceptible or more secure, and that
is not the case. It would also be fair to say that a virus could do things
to a Linux box that are impossible on Windows, too, wouldn't it?

--
Murray --- ICQ 71997575
Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
(If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
==================
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"Michael Fesser" <netizen@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:dbln209383i3bcf1o03urmb4qiereevpjg@4ax.com...
> D. Shane Fowlkes wrote:
>
>
> Might be, but another reason is that it's so damn easy to infiltrate
> Windows systems. IE and OE are unsecure in their default configuration
> and IE is heavily interweaved with the OS - a capital mistake by design.
>
> A virus can do things on a Windows box that are impossible on other
> systems.
>
> Micha

darrel

2004-02-12, 4:30 pm

> I myself, would like to see some kind of market analysis on who has left
MS
> for Linux,

China, for one. ;o)

> and who has left Linux and Novell for MS as well.

A lot of corporations. There's a lot of money to be made in supporting MS
technologies over something like Linux. ;o)

> I also think that MS is
> subjected to some many attacks and viruses simply b/c of their market
> dominance in the PC market. If it were 90% macs and 10% PCs out there,
we'd
> be hearing of a lot more Mac attacks (hey...that sounds catchy).

There's some truth in that, but there's also a lot of truth in the fact that
Windows, overall, is a very easy OS to attack. It has a ton of holes in it.
Many of the virii that hit windows are pretty basic script-kiddie stuff that
would take a good bit more effort to implement on a different OS.

> It's a media feeding frenzy and makes for good fodder when a new MS -based
> virus comes out. Recently, I heard of a really nasty Apple virus about a
> month ago but of course, it got very little media coverage.

Probably because it was false.

> I think Macs have made some ground in the past few years in the
> home computer industry but nothing significant in the business world.

Many, many developers are going to Mac. The business world won't. Why?
Because they buy the cheapest beige box they can get so their secretary can
use MS Word. That market MS can have, and it really has little to no bearing
on the web development market.

> I know of two extremely large "entities" in my area where they're moving
to
> MS and .NET. One is leaving Novell and the other is leaving their Unix
for
> MS networks.

We're moving to .NET. A friend at a very large insurance company is helping
move the entire company away from .NET to J2EE.

> I also know of another small company who's leaving their
> network of about 20 Macs for a MS network.

I know several small companies that have standardized on Mac and are loving
it (no need for full time support techs).

It goes both ways. Again, neither of these issues have much to do with us
web developers.

> "Microsoft, in particular, likes to monopolize the market." And MM
> doesn't?? And Apple isn't trying to?? =)

Apple innovates. MM and MS haven't done much innovating in a while. Apple
tries to do it through better product. MS tries to do it through cheaper
product. MM...well...I'm not sure what their strategy is these days.

> Enough of my hot air...getting off soap box now.

Ah...but then what are we going to do the rest of the afternoon? ;o)

-Darrel

Michael Fesser

2004-02-12, 5:32 pm

Murray *TMM* wrote:

>Doubtless that's true, but the implication is not. The statement implies
>that other systems are therefore less susceptible or more secure, and that
>is not the case. It would also be fair to say that a virus could do things
>to a Linux box that are impossible on Windows, too, wouldn't it?

Ok, but I think it would be a lot harder on a system with restricted
permissions (if it's set up properly).

But regardless of the underlying system - the weakest point is always
the user. If the user is always logged in as root on a Linux box he's as
vulnerable as on Windows. Not to mention all the people who click on
every attachments they get by e-mail ...

Micha

Murray *TMM*

2004-02-12, 6:29 pm

Micha:

Yep - that's my sense too. Windows is just a much bigger bullseye more than
anything else....

--
Murray --- ICQ 71997575
Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
(If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
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"Michael Fesser" <netizen@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:uuqn20lek8d6a1ifft9genj1pu6u7qeie8@4ax.com...
> Murray *TMM* wrote:
>
that[color=blue]
things[color=blue]
>
> Ok, but I think it would be a lot harder on a system with restricted
> permissions (if it's set up properly).
>
> But regardless of the underlying system - the weakest point is always
> the user. If the user is always logged in as root on a Linux box he's as
> vulnerable as on Windows. Not to mention all the people who click on
> every attachments they get by e-mail ...
>
> Micha

Num-nuts

2004-02-13, 7:29 am

Gulp. I seem to be responsible for a global increase in blood pressure, maybe I
would have been better off invading an Arab State. Now I know how Robert
Kilroy-Silk felt

I fully appreciate every one of your posts, and I'm sure I'll be able to come
up with a decision afterwards, its interesting to read your genuine thoughts on
all of this

ronhawker

2004-02-13, 6:28 pm

I suspect based on your question that you are going to be running a
non-enterprise level site. I am somewhat surprised that the size and level of
the site was not asked initially in the discussion. In general, if you are
running a data driven dynamic site and with say less than 100 users on at any
one time; then almost any of these will work fine - including MS Access

Where it gets cloudy is when the numbers go up. Access starts getting flacky
above 100 users in the data base. mysql seems stable but not really enterprise
level yet in security, tools and large relational databases. I think the
database question should be answered first and that would narrow down the field
of what tools to use. When you get into the big enterprise site you really only
have three options - MS SQL, Oracle and DB2. They are the only ones that are
really scalable to the large numbers. You are then are relegated to the tools
that support them

Your question seems to center more on attaching yourself to a learning path
for the future though. If you are talking most about independent work and
applications then all will work. See which you feel the most comfortable in
based on your background. DMX works very well with most of them but better with
ASP and CF since the support is designed it. You will find it amazing how much
you can do without coding anything. You will probably spend more time
struggling with the database setup and links than doing the actual pages. You
will find an amazing level of code and module support for all of them all over
the web

NONE of these opinions are un-biased...no such thing in this world. By human
nature we tend to support what we use because that makes us seem rational...I
expect most of the opinions expressed have really not spent any real time
exploring the other side

Num-nuts

2004-02-14, 10:29 am

Having read every word on every post, I tend to think thst you're right, it
doesnt really matter. Everyone has their preffered technology, and each one has
its pros and cons..

So I've opted for either PHP/MySQL or Coldfusion and a DB program. One final
thing, I did buy a book on MS access a while back , but cant help thinking
this: Access is ok for smallish DB's but arent I wasting time learning it if I
only have to use something more beefy in the future? What other Databases go
well with Coldfusion, or better put, is there a more future proof DB app that I
can learn to go with CF? Or will Access suit me for years to come? I always
thought Access wasnt really a top web DB choice.......but hey what do I know
right?

Thanks for all your time and interest guys, its great

Michael Fesser

2004-02-15, 1:28 am

Num-nuts wrote:

>Gulp. I seem to be responsible for a global increase in blood pressure, maybe I
>would have been better off invading an Arab State. Now I know how Robert
>Kilroy-Silk felt

*g*

Welcome to usenet. ;)

Micha