Adobe After Effects - Confusion about gridIron and After Effects....?

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Confusion about gridIron and After Effects....?

Garrett_Cobarr@adobeforums.com

2006-09-24, 7:22 pm

I am on After Effects 6.5 for the Mac and found a press release for a bundled extension of GridIron with After Effects 6.5...

CreativePro
<http://www.creativepro.com/story/ne...ml?origin=story>

AE help says nothing about it. I found the press release confusing and GridIrons's site more so. Despite that it is an appealing product and I would like to install it and try it. Also I have a client, post house, that would like me to consult on an insta
ll there. They have a lot more G5s than I and a xSan and xServe systems

First question is there version of this available on the AE 6.5 disk and if so...is it 2 more machines than the parent? How do I locate and install?

2nd question: The product names are confusing...is it GridIron, Nucleo or X-Factor?

3rd question: I am and my client are contemplating a move up to AE 7. Would this require a repurchase of GridIron? Is there significant benefits or gotchas' related to version 7 and GridIron?

I have many years of render farm experience with AE and my 3D tool, Cinema 4D, so I am very intrigued with this option, as is my client. Please keep all answers Mac based, no PCs in the mix I read so point me to the details as well if that is easier.

Hey thanks to anyone who responds.

David_Wigforss@adobeforums.com

2006-09-24, 7:22 pm

1) I think there was a plugin (sep install) on the 6.5 cd. I think it might be an option on the install screen (like cycore and keylight). Not sure how many machines...

2) Gridiron Software is the company - xfactor and nucleo and nucleo pro are their products

We tried xfactor and gave up on it. It was slower than regular rendering, if I remember right. Oh, and the kicker - unlimited render license per seat = $2000. How fast is your network speed? How fast is your server? What drive speed are you running...

I've heard good things about Nucleo, but have never tried it.

Andrew_Yoole@adobeforums.com

2006-09-24, 7:22 pm

Gridiron XFactor was bundled with 6.5. It is also available from their website

<http://www.gridironsoftware.com/XFactor/>

Your best bet is to download the current version of XFactor Basic (free) and test it - it allows you to use two additional render nodes on your network to trial.

My facility found, like David says, that unless you are rendering extraordinary long projects (meaning, long render times per frame) the associated network administration and network traffic aren't really worth the trouble.

On the other hand, Gridiron Nucleo (free trial also downloadable) is the most astounding boost to render speed I've ever seen for After Effects (so long as you're using it with a multi-processor machine). It can sometimes cut my render times in half on a
Quad G5. I'd strongly recommend you research Nucleo properly before committing to any purchases.

Nucleo works well with 6.5 but better with 7.0.

Steve_Forde@adobeforums.com

2006-09-24, 7:22 pm

Here's the deal on X-Factor....(GridIron is our company - every product we make is named "GridIron Nucleo" and "GridIron Nucleo Pro" etc).

For most AE users, its not worth the time or money. IF you "already" have an existing render farm that is "properly" set up, and have more than say 20 processors you can throw at (a mix of say dual core and physical CPU spread across your farm), then X-Fa
ctor will provide benefit. You also need to ensure that storage (XSAN etc) is also properly mounted, and that you are not too shy of getting your hands dirty with some pretty messy network administration.

We have several very large facilities as customers that think X-Factor is great. But for the vast majority - its why we created Nucleo and Nucleo Pro.

None of the headache, all of the gain - but works only on multi-cpu (or core) workstations, and does not go out to the network at all.

Therefore - being brutally frank (and not that I don't like to sell expensive software), give Nucleo or Nucleo Pro a run before investigating X-Factor. You may find that Nucleo and Nucleo Pro will suffice at a fraction of the cost and effort (and potentia
lly frustration).

Steve
GridIron Software Inc.

silversurfer@adobeforums.com

2006-09-24, 7:22 pm

FWIW...nothing but problems with Nucleo Pro / AE 7 Pro. After owning it for just a few weeks, I have disabled it (don't have time to figure out the issues). It LOOKS to be a cool product, but I haven't seen any performance gains yet.

It's probably just me...but I don't recommend it :(

- Joey

-stev=o@adobeforums.com

2006-09-24, 7:22 pm

Sorry to hear that you're still having problems, Joey.
Nucleo Pro has been working wonders for me ever since I installed it.
I had one instance where the background renderer failed, but after I cleared the cache files from the spec render HD cache, it worked like a charm, and has been ever since. BTW, spec render is a beautiful thing.
The only problem being that I have no "downtime" to get a cup of coffee when I render. :D

-stev=o

David_Wigforss@adobeforums.com

2006-09-24, 7:22 pm

Have you tried it on one of your other workstations, Joey? Would be worth a try to see if it's isolated to your station..

Steve_Forde@adobeforums.com

2006-09-24, 7:22 pm

Joey,

I get automatically CC'd on every support communication. After the original support request, and we notified you of your system issue, you submitted nothing.

I make no secret that we are working on a patch. It's not released yet (and all bugs it fixes are NOT critical, and focus on performance), hence no announcement until the patch is released. We had over 200 beta testers for Nucleo Pro, and you must underst
and that even with that many we can't catch everything before we ship.

When the patch is released, Nucleo Pro will let you know automatically, as well as an email from yours truly to all users.

Back to you...

Steve
GridIron Software Inc.

silversurfer@adobeforums.com

2006-09-24, 7:22 pm

Steve,

This "soapbox" comes after I was in touch with you guys and what I thought was "fixed" wasn't really. Background Renderer works now...but it is SLOWER than regular rendering..so I disabled it.

You have a patch coming next week? That would have been great news to get in a Customer Newsletter...especially since I have been having horrible performance issues!

"You have not contacted support, you have not detailed any problems."

Not true...let's not go into once again my first contact with Tech Support (I can outline it if you wish to keep this discussion in the open). I went back & forth after my initial "fix" with your Tech Guys (who were very cool, BTW) so how would you know i
f I contacted Tech Support? You were not personally involved with the last bit. They did help me all they could, but I still suffer performance issues & sporatic hanging on boot-up.

"Do I want (or even care) about making NucleoPro work for me?"

Is that a joke? Wow...is that how you handle paid customers? We would not have wasted $495 if we did not want it to work, steve. I am the guinea pig for some other workstations in my facility for NucleoPro. If I can't get it to work to spec, I don't think
my Art Director is going to going to pony up for the other machines. Because NucleoPro did not work for me right out of the box, I have to find time on my production schedule to do your Tech Support tests & procedures and I just have not had the time. Do
n't even tell me I "am willing to do nothing about it" because you have no idea of what you speak (sounds a bit like your own "soapboxing").

I have the right to list my displeasure with anything related to After Effects on this forum based on my experiences - especially if it is not yet working properly. It's not all sunshine & roses for everybody...sorry. Once I get it running to spec, I will
list that on the forum as well to be fair...but it is definitely not there yet.

I would appreciate notification about this "bug fix" ASAP (as I am sure everyone else having issues does to). I will be back in the studio on Tuesday and we'll go from there.

- Joey

Steve_Forde@adobeforums.com

2006-09-24, 7:23 pm

Joey,

I continue to ask you - what specifically is the problem? Saying you "don't like it" and "don't recommend it" does absolutely nothing to help solve any problems. We have a patch coming next week that addresses the grand total of "8" bugs we have found sin
ce release.

You have not contacted support, you have not detailed any problems. Continual complaints of "just don't like it" without detail is hardly value for the money you paid for Nucleo Pro.

Do you really want (or even care) about making Nucleo Pro work for you? You obviously care enough to keep posting your displeasure. The odd thing here is - you are willing to do absolutely nothing about it.

Beginning to think this is more about a soapbox than productivity.

Steve
GridIron Software Inc.

silversurfer@adobeforums.com

2006-09-24, 7:23 pm

Hiya David,

It's been activated to my machine and, like I mentioned, I have to physically set aside time to work on this situation. It is quite embarrassing for me personally as I touted NucleoPro to my coworkers as the greatest thing for AE since Z-Depth was incorpo
rated (just from the literature and the hype). You can understand why I am a little "put off" that it does not work properly as I am in the spotlight at work. I really do wish it would kick a$$ like it's supposed to.

Curious, Steve... how many Beta testers put NucleoPro through it's paces in a Broadcast Batch rendering environment (multiple renders in the Queue) and for how long was the Beta Test period? Are the benchmarks posted somewhere that compare NucleoPro rende
rs to AE 7 Pro's built-in render engine? FWIW, I requested 3 times to be involved in the Beta Testing - no reply. Might have helped nail a few things down way before the release.

I will wait until the patch is released, install it and go from there. I am looking forward to that announcement / notification :)

"Back to you..." :P

- Joey

Steve_Forde@adobeforums.com

2006-09-24, 7:23 pm

LOL - fair enough. Lets communicate next week and see if the patch resolves the issues. Please be aware though, the patch may not contain anything beyond better handling of the method you name your storage folders, as we have absolutely nothing else from
you in our database. Therefore, if there are issues with your system other than what you have reported, Nucleo Pro may still only frustrate you.

On the beta front - several hundred beta testers in every language working in film, broadcast, web etc, ranging from boutiques to mid size post houses to entire broadcast networks. Beta lasted almost 6 months. Out of now several thousand customers, we hav
e had 8 documented "issues" since release. Hence the patch.

If we find that there are indeed more issues with your workstation, and require modifications to our software, we will patch again. Hence why I am hounding you so much to find out "what's broken".

Steve
GridIron Software Inc.

silversurfer@adobeforums.com

2006-09-24, 7:23 pm

Fair enough :) I will be in touch (off this forum).

- Joey

Steven_Mullins@adobeforums.com

2006-09-24, 7:23 pm

"On the other hand, Gridiron Nucleo (free trial also downloadable) is the most astounding boost to render speed I've ever seen for After Effects (so long as you're using it with a multi-processor machine). It can sometimes cut my render times in half on a
Quad G5. I'd strongly recommend you research Nucleo properly before committing to any purchases. "

Ditto that for Nucleo Pro. Greatest upgrade ever.

-steven

SB_Pence@adobeforums.com

2006-11-19, 9:10 pm

I just visited Gridiron website and found that X-factor has been canceled...removed eliminated.
I purchased their GridIron Xfactor product over a year ago and was looking forward to using it. Yes the full version.
I called their office and talked to their representative last August and was told that they had no time to work
on and fix xfactor because they were too busy working on their new products.
Please remind me not to ever buy any products associated with this crew. I will be reminding others of my experience with them.

Steve

Gridiron Xfactor

Steve Forde - CEO
Ben Piercey - Director of Product Management
Dave McLelland - Director of Product Development
Robyn Paton - Marketing Manager

Steven_Mullins@adobeforums.com

2006-11-19, 9:10 pm

That's lame. I too own at least a couple of XFactor licenses. You would think they would float you at least a discount on Nucleo Pro since it really has the end result XFactor was supposed to (and never did).

I love Nucleo Pro but do think they could make things right.

-steven

<http://www.EchoOut.com>

Steve_Forde@adobeforums.com

2006-11-19, 9:10 pm

Actually - we are offering anyone who purchased X-Factor after April 1 2006, a free cross-grade to Nucleo Pro.

The reason why we are not releasing for AE 7 is....due to changes in AE 7, the X-Factor user experience would be terrible. We tried to get around it (why we took so long) - but it didn't work.

Contact us to get your free Nucleo Pro license (which in most cases is much faster than X-Factor).

Steve
GridIron Software Inc.

Steve_Forde@adobeforums.com

2006-11-19, 9:10 pm

Woops - the free cross grade is for customers who purchased after Jan 1, 2006.

Steve
GridIron Software Inc.

Steven_Mullins@adobeforums.com

2006-11-19, 9:10 pm

" Actually - we are offering anyone who purchased X-Factor after April 1 2006, a free cross-grade to Nucleo Pro."

That's freaking awesome. I didn't see that anywhere.

-steven

coryharris@adobeforums.com

2006-11-19, 9:10 pm

Oh great! That just makes it equal, doesn't it?? I look like a the Moron of the company that I work for. Hopefully I won't get fired. In the beginning of the year we purchased 3 powerful dual render boxes of about $2000 each and 3 licenses for Grid Iron X
factor for all three of us editors here at my job not minding that it didn't work on AE 7, which we all have, because we were under the impression that Grid Iron was going to update eventually (so we were told.) After about 3 months of trying to get it to
work on AE 6.5 I finally did (with help from their Support Team giving me the runaround and losing my e-mails and also giving me blanket rhetorical answers as if I was a five year old) really with the help of our own IT department. Does this really make
it even giving us Nucleo Pro??? I didn't see that in the e-mail they sent me by the way. I don't think so.
I wish they would just sell their engine or their work to Adobe so Adobe could take care of it and incorporate it in their next release of AE.
I mean give me a break! Let's just throw our hands up in the air and give up on a software. Should we expect that when AE 8 comes out that GridIron won't support their Nucleo and throw their hands up about THAT!

P.S. I'm sorry but using Nucleo won't come close to the speeds of my render boxxes(which can be upgraded and added on.) I guess my team is destined to stay on 6.5... Yeah right! And Oh by the way... pointing figures at Adobe (who would recommend GridIron
for the past years) is very low class...

Steve_Forde@adobeforums.com

2006-11-19, 9:11 pm

Cory,

I'm sorry you feel that way. We made every effort to get X-Factor for AE 7 working. Problem is....changes were made in AE that we were able to tackle with Nucleo Pro, but not X-Factor.

In other words - if we had shipped X-Factor for AE 7, you would have been cursing us left, right and centre even more than you are now.

Its not the answer we wanted to give, but its the only one that is reasonable. It just doesn't work the way it should. We are trying to make it easy for users to cross grade to a solution that WORKS.

If you purchased a license - you should have gotten the email about how to cross-grade for free. The instructions on how to do so are also in the EOL thread I posted on this forum.

Let me know if you need assistance getting your free licenses @ sforde@gridironsoftware.com

Steve
GridIron Software Inc

Jim_Brahos@adobeforums.com

2006-11-19, 9:11 pm

Thank you coryharris! I'm in the exact same situation. We purchased an expensive render farm to work with X-factor with the understanding that X-Factor would be upgraded to work with AE 7 (at least that's what the wonderful folks at Gridiron told us). We
have been sitting on our copies of AE 7 just waiting for the updates for X-Factor, which were "coming soon"
I can just see the guys at Gridiron trying to fix X-Factor saying: "wow, this is going to be hard... let's just give up and cancel the whole thing."
You guys at Gridiron might have mentioned a free cross grade somewhere in the email telling us that you left us high and dry.
The way this whole thing has gone down says a lot about a company and I will tell anyone that is thinking about using anything from Gridiron NOT to do it. They will just take your money and leave you.

Steve_Forde@adobeforums.com

2006-11-19, 9:11 pm

Jim,

You should have recieved in the email instructions on how to get the free cross grade. Please note, that the free cross grade is dated for purchases of X-Factor from Jan 1, 2006. This was before AE 7 was even announced.

All I can say about us "giving up" is, the version of X-Factor for AE 7 sucked so badly, it wasn't worth shipping. It took us 6 months of development to reach that point.

Not the answer you want to hear - but its the truth. We could have chosen the route of SPIN and BS that many companies pursue - but are trying to be sincere and honest with the people we value most - our customers.

Steve
GridIron Software Inc.

Jim_Brahos@adobeforums.com

2006-11-19, 9:11 pm

Steve, When was this email sent out with the instructions? Before or after the email announcing the death of X-Factor? Because I sure didn't get it and it looks like very few other people did as well.
I do appreciate your candor, but there have been so many problems with your tech department, and now this announcement, that you can see why a lot of us are upset and leery of continuing to use your products.

Steve_Forde@adobeforums.com

2006-11-19, 9:11 pm

Jim,

It would have been included in the announcement if your license was eligible. If you purchased before Jan 1, 2006, (before AE 7) than the instructions would not have been in it.

Understand about the support. Another reason we are cancelling the product. X-Factor is difficult even in the best of environments (I had 1 user where there were no problems at all with computers etc, yet X-Factor would still not work - turned out to be t
he wiring in the walls...)

Send me a mail off list (sforde@gridironsoftware.com) with your serial number and I can look into your activation history etc and work something out if you purchased before Jan 1.

Steve
GridIron Software Inc.

coryharris@adobeforums.com

2006-11-19, 9:11 pm

My company actually purchased 3 +6 pack licenses this April (Not cheap either) from ToolFarm Inc. My office was the trial run with intent to buy MANY more licenses. Where was my e-mail instructions for the free cross grade since we're not BSn'?? And what
about my now useless render boxxes? I tell ya what... this Nucleo better purr.

Steve_Forde@adobeforums.com

2006-11-19, 9:11 pm

Cory,

Please send me your license keys via email: support@gridironsoftware.com.

Since you purchased in April - you will get 3 licenses of Nucleo Pro at no cost. Nucleo Pro has met to rave review so far (have yet to see a bad one) as well we have issued 2 patches since release.

In terms of your render boxes, there are many solutions (including the free watch folder with AE) such as RUSH, Smedge or you could try <http://www.axceleon.com/>.

In most cases though, we have found that the speed gains with Nucleo Pro (ironically) outpaced what a small farm could provide in terms of performance (on things like Quad workstations etc).

Let me know

Steve
GridIron Software Inc.

Steve_Forde@adobeforums.com

2006-11-19, 9:11 pm

Steve

I will say that the official word for anyone calling about X-Factor before August 31st 2006 was that we could not comment on X-Factor until after we ship Nucleo Pro. The main reason being, we wanted to have another kick at the can to see if we could get X
-Factor for AE 7 running, but needed all our development resources to do so.

That said, you should not have felt as if we were rude or that you were bothering us. If someone on my team made you feel this way, I sincerely apologize. I would appreciate it if you could provide some details about the conversation, and whom you were sp
eaking to.

Steve
GridIron Software Inc.

SB_Pence@adobeforums.com

2006-11-19, 9:11 pm

Let me tell you my experience as well....

I called Gridiron in August and was told that they are too busy working on their other products to spend anytime on fixing x-factor. Their attitude was very rude and made me feel like I was bothering them. Of course I did purchase the unlimited license fo
r their product thinking it was going to be supported. But as they said... "they were too busy working on their other product.....what can they do with only ten people".
I myself will be reminding others of this "team" and passing on my experience.

Steve

SB_Pence@adobeforums.com

2006-11-19, 9:11 pm

Steve,

The person who answered the phone was a young lady. It was almost as if she enjoyed playing this game with paying customers. It was a "matter of fact" "what is the big deal" ... Don't call us we will call you attitude....
I paid a lot of money for a product that was advertised as system designed by "Grid Experts". Backed by Adobe.... partners with IBM. Advertised as a straightforward linear bang per computer farm. Then watched as you moved into Windows Media farms. The fut
ure looked bright.
Then there was silence. No response for months on your own forums. I guess you gave up on the Windows Media encoder? You gave up on the X-factor.
Now it appears that you are dual core experts? That no one was happy with X-factor.
I do not know what to believe. I like many others gave you a vote of confidence with our purchase and you failed.
Why should I believe you or anything your company has to say or offer? Because of the "rave reviews" of your new products. I've heard it before:(

Steve

Steve_Forde@adobeforums.com

2006-11-19, 9:11 pm

Steve

I will "discuss" the issue with the person you talked with. This type of "customer service" should never have happened and will be dealt with. Again, sincere apologies.

On the front about the future of X-Factor, we are offering to cross grade you to Nucleo Pro at no cost. Frankly, unless you were willing to invest in at least many thousands of dollars (as in 30-100K) in networking, infrastructure (electrical, HVAC) and c
ompute resources, Nucleo Pro will be FASTER than X-Factor.

If you look at the forums (creative cow, mograph, here etc) I think you would see many users say that X-Factor was not "Fun" or "Easy" and in most cases did not provide improvement due to lack of resources (as in a real render farm).

We found that we could provide 99% of the benefit with none of the pain on workstations with more than 1 CPU. Ironically, the computer manufacturers chose to keep throwing more CPU's in the machines, and hence Nucleo and Nucleo Pro provided even more valu
e.

IF you look for reviews and forum comments on X-Factor vs Nucleo Pro, I think you will clearly see a distinction in what customers like you are saying. In our opinion, they were saying that Nucleo Pro was a must have improvement, and that why would anyone
without huge infrastructure bother with X-Factor.

Our design goal for the next version of X-Factor for AE 7 was to improve this user experience. In short, we could not do it. We do not control AE, and cannot control much of the infrastructure in customer environments. The user experience in the version o
f X-Factor for AE 7 was actually WORSE than the previous version. That is when I made the decision to scrap it.

I am sorry you feel slighted. Believe me, you would be even more frustrated by an inferior version of X-Factor if we had released it, knowing full well that Nucleo Pro will provide what you need and more.

Unfortunately, I can only ask you to trust us.

Steve
GridIron Software Inc.

SB_Pence@adobeforums.com

2006-11-19, 9:11 pm

Steve,

I hear what you are saying, but I do not make judgments based on just one phone call going south. It also appeared in your own forums. People asking concerned questions and just being ignored. This is systemic as far as I can see.
If you have read the Adobe forums over the years I think that negative posts about product reliability and usability have been rampant. But that has not stopped Adobe.
No I have not been offered anything for my unlimited license. I bought it well before the deadline you set.

Steve

Steve_Forde@adobeforums.com

2006-12-06, 8:14 pm

Steve,

Apologies for the late reply - have been out of the office. I agree with the comment about our forums. Ironically, when a user posts to our forum, it is emailed to our support staff. We then reply to the email directly to the user, and in many cases, the
forum does not get updated. In short, our forums suck. We are in the process of putting place a completely new forum to specifically address this issue.

In terms of product reliability and usability, this is specifically why we stopped support for X-Factor. We are striving to put out reliable and usable product. When that can't be met, we feel that we are doing our customers an injustice. I can't speak fo
r other software vendors, but in terms of our policy - it either works to design, or it doesn't ship.

If you purchased X-Factor before our deadline, (which was set before AE 7 was even announced), we are also allowing a reduced price cross-grade in acknowledgement of a tough user experience. That said, X-Factor did work as designed for AE 6.5, and since y
ou purchased X-Factor before AE 7 even existed, we are only offering the discount.

Let me know if you did not get that notice.

Steve
GridIron Software Inc.